298 réponses à ce sujet

[StingingVelvet]

Like many I was worried Dragon Age 2 would be a hack n' slash videogame based on the early developer comments about streamlining, accessibility and "something awesome happens."  The demo has come out though and I for one think the tactical gameplay shines as much as before, if not more so, and the changes are for the better (other than the lack of "isometric" camera distance).

The speed of animations and positioning does a lot to make combat more fun while not at all watering down tactics.  The menu system's clear and simple layout offers all the same options as before but in a more concise manner.  The focus on fun, while still being a tactical RPG, is felt with every powerful backstab or twirl of a wizard's staff.  The unique art style remings me of Team Fortress 2 in how it allows for instant recognition and clean lines, distinctive and unique in a crowded (for 20+ years now) genre of medievil fantasy.

For years I have been seeing "accessible" and "streamlining" as horrible buzzwords that actually mean simplification and dumber.  One could argue Bioware's last game, Mass Effect 2, lost a little too much of the RPG aspects in order to streamline and become more accessible.  Dragon Age 2 though?  It seems to me that it is the model to follow for making RPGs more accessible and fun without losing what they are.  Fun combat, easy to understand but challenging to master.  Fast and exciting animations, yet a deep tactical base.  It's more broad in appeal yet still the same core game, and it loses very little complexity.

Thoughts?

[Alanosborn1991]

Well thought out post Op,

Ive never really played a hardcore RPG before because they bore me but I love to use tactics and think things out instead of mindlessly doing things in games when i can.

The best thing they have done which I like is make mages have flourishing attacks both near and far.

Take it from the Devs point of view where they have to please such a huge amount of new comers and fans.

Modifié par Alanosborn1991, 28 février 2011 - 05:24 .

[AustinKain]

Well from what we have seen in the demo I would have to say YES is the answer to your thread title. Again that is just my opinion, as there is a sect of people that are going to bash,flame,hate,and just talk bad about this game no matter what.
Would I like to have been able to play a elf/dwarf and not be stuck in human? Yes. Again that is just my opinion, on all medival type fantasy rpgs.
I believe that Bioware as well as Obsidian which looks to be doing a great job with Dungeon Siege 3, are the top 2 of my favorite developers. With Team Ninja,Capcom,Midway right behind.

[_Dejanus]

Depends on what you're working from. Frankly, the combat system in Origins had a lot of unneccesary complexity that really only led to confusion and clunkyness. DA2 has not only removed the fat, but toned and improved the muscle. Win in both categories in my opinion.

Modifié par _Dejanus, 28 février 2011 - 05:36 .

[Pauravi]

I think so. I found the combat very similar tactically to DAO, but faster and more entertaining.

I thought ME2 was successful at this too, though; I thought that they kept everything that made ME1 a good RPG (characters, dialogue, and yes I liked the companion-centric plot even if it wasn't as grand in scope), got rid of the stuff I didn't care about or that was annoying (amassing preposterously large inventories of worthless armor and weapons and upgrades that I somehow carried with me and eventually had to tediously sell or gel), and improved the combat. It was quicker, and because the cover mechanics worked so much better, I actually found myself using MORE tactics in combat. Additionally, the choice in weapons was actually greater, because they actually handled differently, rather than the best gun just being the same as the worst gun but with different colors and higher numbers next to the name.

Modifié par Pauravi, 28 février 2011 - 05:50 .

[Maclimes]

I totally agree. I find the combat in the demo to be superior to DA:O. As you say, it has been streamlined, but the focus on tactical play is very strong, and not "dumbed down" in the slightest. I love it.

[Duros]

No I demand we all play super hard 3 mage groups or arcane warriors in origins, 'cause that IS hardcore.

[Mageofthedas2012]

Lets not jump to conclusions yet, until i can say that the second game's story was on par or better than the first one, the RPG elements wern't kicked out of the game just so some hardcore hack-n-slash can actually play a game because it had a quote "movie plot that was awsome and has lots of blood!!" then I can say ya, and I can start to yell at EA for actually becoming good publishers. What ever happened to hating them? Why EA, Why!!??

[mesmerizedish]

Yes.

[EDIT] I don't even think they streamlined. DAII is WAY more similar to Origins than even the devs are willing to admit.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 28 février 2011 - 06:09 .

[Mageofthedas2012]

What? they spent a year on it, and most liklely started working on it while finishing Dragon Age:Origins.

[wulfsturm]

Mageofthedas2012 wrote...

What? they spent a year on it, and most liklely started working on it while finishing Dragon Age:Origins.

Two years, actually.

[Crunchyinmilk]

Anyone who truly liked or hated everything about the demo would probably have no compunction to argue the point, secure in their own opinion.

It was an awful demo if the intention was to attract/reassure many PC DAO fans. It could have been better.

Buggy interface (fixed in gold), no AoE free-targeting camera (fixed in gold), no gee wiz graphics options (fixed in gold), no difficulty setting (fixed in gold). Inability to target the ground beneath/behind/through enemies (not fixed in gold -yet), Inventory changes (not shown), non-combat skills (removed/not shown).

Any wonder some got unreasonably upset? Any wonder some excoriated real or imagined changes? What in the demo demonstrates streamlining? You cannot test the effectiveness of the changes and just playing it on the PC can be a buggy experience.

"Dumbed Down" is used to troll those that found the demo somewhat fun. Its awfully successful bait. At the end of the day, most positive and negative comments about the game/demo are people seeking common ground. Assurance that their overall opinion is shared and to have their remaining doubts allayed.

The demo proves nothing whatsoever about streamlining, we'll have to wait and see if Dragon Age 2 can.

[Buffy-Summers]

I just see Dragon age 2 as dumbed down so i guess it cant prove anything in my opinion


The conversation wheel

What happened to mages

The acrobatic flipping

The limited 1 city (mostly) venue

The unchangable armor for companions

The special skills for compansion not useable by other companions


Remove a few names and you have an entirely new game action game called Rogues of War

Modifié par Buffy-Summers, 28 février 2011 - 06:25 .

[Kanten]

Considering "streamline" is almost universally a euphemism for "dumb down", I don't really see how.

One thing you don't do is drop that into the middle of an existing series.

[Sakanade]

Buffy-Summers wrote...

I just see Dragon age 2 as dumbed down so i guess it cant prove anything in my opinion


The conversation wheel

What happened to mages

The acrobatic flipping

The limited 1 city (mostly) venue

The unchangable armor for companions

The special skills for compansion not useable by other companions


Remove a few names and you have an entirely new game action game called Rogues of War

just wait till the expansion called "Chains of Olympus Kirkwall" gets released

Modifié par Sakanade, 28 février 2011 - 07:18 .

[Pauravi]

Buffy-Summers wrote...

I just see Dragon age 2 as dumbed down so i guess it cant prove anything in my opinion


The conversation wheel
What happened to mages
The acrobatic flipping
The limited 1 city (mostly) venue
The unchangable armor for companions
The special skills for compansion not useable by other companions

Remove a few names and you have an entirely new game action game called Rogues of War

I guess I don't see how any of that means that it has been "dumbed down".

-Conversation wheel
So the dialogue choices are in a wheel now instead of a list.  So what?
I understand maybe not liking paraphrasing, but the dialogue itself is no more simplistic, it is just spoken instead. The paraphrasing is there to reduce the redundancy of having to read and listen to the exact same lines, which just ends up in people skipping past the dialogue, and the icons are there to make the tone of the dialogue choices less ambiguous (which was an issue in DAO, too, whether you think so or not).

- What happened to mages?
What are you talking about?  They still cast spells.  They just look cooler doing it.

- Acrobatic flipping
So what?  What do animations have anything to do with "dumbing down" a game or turning it into an action game?  You still can pause the game and assign orders, and the powers have similar strategic uses, and they all still have cooldowns.  The only difference is that the character uses the power as soon as you press the button.

- 1-city venue
- Unchangeable companion armor
Once again, I don't see where the "dumbing down" is.  Planescape: Torment is often considered one of the best RPGs ever produced, and NONE of the characters can change armor, not even the PC.  Not only that, practically the entire game takes place in the city of Sigil.  Nobody in the right mind who played it would ever call it "dumbed down", though.  Companion armor amounts essentially to eye candy, it has nothing to do with how simplistic or not the game is.

So as you rightly pointed out this is just your opinion, but saying that the game is "dumbed down" is an insult to people who enjoyed it.  Not only that, but your condescention has no basis in anything substantive, it is essentially a preference in visual style.  None of it has to do with making the game more simplistic, and certainly none of it makes it any close to an action game.

[PinkShoes]

i agree i think its more tatical now. When its faster you have to think a little faster, the heal cool downs are longer so you now cant just take keep taking them you actually have to pay way more attention.

[Pauravi]

Kanten wrote...

Considering "streamline" is almost universally a euphemism for "dumb down", I don't really see how.

Or maybe "dumb down" is a euphamism for "waaaah, the game isn't exactly the same as the old one :crying:"
Frankly I find the term insulting.  It implies that people who liked the old game are somehow more intelligent just because they're being stodgy and stubborn and they cry and flail like children over even minor changes.

One thing you don't do is drop that into the middle of an existing series.

Really?  You don't try to improve on the game during the course of a series that will probably run for 6 years at least? Sounds like a recipe for Fail to me.

[Dubya75]

Nice post OP, fully agree with you on all points.

[Selene Moonsong]

I found that the more I played the demo, the more I liked it. For us PC users, the keyboard commands are the same and the tactical play works as well, if not better, as DA Origins.

[Rawgrim]

Truth be told: I allways felt that DA:O was pretty dumbed down as well. When searching for something you need to complete a quest, for example, you get the location marked with a big arrow on the map. I am too used to older rpgs, I guess - so i am abit biased.

[Aidunno]

I remember pen and paper roleplaying games where you took 5 minutes referencing tables to actually decide what damage has been inflicted on the opponent. I also remember other games where it took seconds. Is one better than the other? The more complex ones may have been more realistic but the complexity simply meant the story didn't progress quickly and meant rule lawyers had a field day. With computer roleplaying games you can have this complexity hidden from the user so it doesn't get in the way. Sure you don't have 101 things to keep track of yourself, it doesn't mean it is not there. I think this is what a large part of the problem is. For a lot of people if you cannot see it, it doesn't exist.

As a computer programmer myself one of the goals is to always do complex things without making it seem complex. Yes,streamling processes can cause problems, especially if you don't understand the processes involved but how often have I heard the argument "no you need to do that... then that" until I asked "why ?" The difficulty is people get used to certain expectations.

Modifié par Aidunno, 28 février 2011 - 11:45 .

[Kronner]

Are you serious? Just look at the map/level layout. Go forward (through narrow corridor, no other way), kill stuff, press button, cutscene, boss fight. And repeat.

DOOM, FPS from 1993, has much more complex map/level layout, with backtracking, secret rooms etc.

Most of today's games are dumbed down to idiotic level.

[StarcloudSWG]

Anything that gets in the way of the story or the combat game play should be streamlined, simplified, or removed. Managing massive inventories, looting bodies for anything/everything useful, carrying around dumpsters full of equipment that is useless.. all that should be taken out of the game.
Non-combat skills that have no game play purpose, those should be junked too. Want to disarm traps and pick locks? Be a Rogue and have those skills as an innate part of the Rogue class. Hell, give everyone a basic skill in those, in case a Rogue isn't handy.
Remove all that, and more development resources can go to polishing game play and bug-fixing everything from dialog to graphics.

[Rawgrim]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Anything that gets in the way of the story or the combat game play should be streamlined, simplified, or removed. Managing massive inventories, looting bodies for anything/everything useful, carrying around dumpsters full of equipment that is useless.. all that should be taken out of the game.
Non-combat skills that have no game play purpose, those should be junked too. Want to disarm traps and pick locks? Be a Rogue and have those skills as an innate part of the Rogue class. Hell, give everyone a basic skill in those, in case a Rogue isn't handy.
Remove all that, and more development resources can go to polishing game play and bug-fixing everything from dialog to graphics.

Giving everyone lockpicking skills won`t make sense at all. Especially not storywise. Mages, warriors and whatsnot being able to pick locks, no matter what background they have? Frankly, thats dumbing something down beyond repair. And pretty much turning the game into an interactive movie, instead of a roleplaying game.(No offence).