certainly less realistic.Rawgrim wrote...
What about the mabari? In DA2 you just summon him out of thin air, whenever you wish (mabari`s in Kirkwall are magical creatures aparantly). Does this count as "dumbing down"?
Rawgrim wrote...
What about the mabari? In DA2 you just summon him out of thin air, whenever you wish (mabari`s in Kirkwall are magical creatures aparantly). Does this count as "dumbing down"?
It goes against teh lore for teh real dogz be teleportin.Bobad wrote...
Rawgrim wrote...
What about the mabari? In DA2 you just summon him out of thin air, whenever you wish (mabari`s in Kirkwall are magical creatures aparantly). Does this count as "dumbing down"?
It consitutes a change, whether anybody wishes to call it dumbing down, streamlining, rubbish or the dogs bollocks is purely subjective.
AllThatJazz wrote...
Just to pre-emptively defend myself (!), I'm sure I'll love DA2, I enjoyed the demo and have had the SE pre-ordered for several months now. Thought combat was more fun overall, especially for rogues.
That said, I will think it's a shame if I can't pick my non-combat skills as well as raise my stats and choose combat talents. Is it true of all skills from Origins that they are purely personality/attribute based rather than chosen manually? Herbalism, survival, traps and the like, or are they still in? I guess I'm hoping for some manual input, having my non-combat skills chosen for me would be streamlining a little too much for my personal tastes. Not enough to make me not enjoy the game, I'm sure, but still. What can I say, I enjoy maximum fiddling about with character stats and builds x
Arttis wrote...
It goes against teh lore for teh real dogz be teleportin.Bobad wrote...
Rawgrim wrote...
What about the mabari? In DA2 you just summon him out of thin air, whenever you wish (mabari`s in Kirkwall are magical creatures aparantly). Does this count as "dumbing down"?
It consitutes a change, whether anybody wishes to call it dumbing down, streamlining, rubbish or the dogs bollocks is purely subjective.
Lore says its fine.Bobad wrote...
Arttis wrote...
It goes against teh lore for teh real dogz be teleportin.Bobad wrote...
Rawgrim wrote...
What about the mabari? In DA2 you just summon him out of thin air, whenever you wish (mabari`s in Kirkwall are magical creatures aparantly). Does this count as "dumbing down"?
It consitutes a change, whether anybody wishes to call it dumbing down, streamlining, rubbish or the dogs bollocks is purely subjective.
What about the Ranger pets in Origins?.
Aldandil wrote...
Captain Sassy Pants wrote...
Oh, where to begin on actual evidence of dumbing down...
During the demo, I never read any of the snippets of dialogue. I didn't have to. I just moused over to get the icon I wanted at the time and let it go. In Origins, I read through every response and chose the one that I thought best suited my character. Dumbed down. Period.
When equipping my characters in Origins, I looked through all of the available items that I had, weighed them against each other, and chose the ones I thought best suited that character. Now, the game will tell me outright which is better (even which is better for which class) removing any amount of thinking that was previously involved. Dumbed down. Period.
Outside of easy mode, every mode required proper positioning of your characters when planning to use AOE spells, unless you wanted to hurt them. I'd often try to set up my "tank" to hold "aggro", then have the mage drop the AOE on him, damaging him but also hitting a majority of the enemy's forces. Now, in all modes but the absolute hardest (which I never had an interest in playing, but would be forced to in order to use a feature that was previously available to me in a difficulty setting that I do like playing, normal mode) I can just spam away with the big spells with no thought at all to any sort of negative consequences to my team. This removes proper planning and strategy, as well as breaks immersion. I thought it was stupid when they removed this feature from Diablo 2, and I still think it is stupid now. It makes the game "easier" and requires less thinking. Even better, monsters have friendly fire in every difficulty, punishing them for using big spells and making the game even easier for the player. Dumbed down. Period.
The best reason for the third change being proof of "dumbing down" is the reason the debs gave for friendly fire not being an option that you can toggle on and off in any difficulty: someone would accidentally toggle it, not knowing what they did, and then would complain and quit the game because it was "too hard". They just told you what they think of the player base (or the intended one), so what more needs to be said on the subject?
Call it "streamlining" all you want. I'll call it how it is.
Well, how you want to choose your dialogue options is of course your choice. That's not the only way to do it though. Same goes for choosing what weapons to use. You can still spend just as much time thinking about which dialogue option or piece of equipment to pick. For starters, I don't think that the tone markers have replaced the paraphrase when it comes to what message is being conveyed, nor does the stars on the equipment tell you what stats are best for you, you still have to think for yourself. Basically, you still have to do what you did in DA:O.
The lack of FF is definitely a case of "dumbing down", that is to say something that used to require thought no longer does. However, combat is more complex now, with the possibility of causing states such as Stagger and Brittle. It's hardly dumbed down in general. Furthermore, if you do play the game at Nightmare, there is of course no dumbing down at all, quite the contrary.
For cool effects they decided to not let you see your character run around.......Rawgrim wrote...
Well...the rogues can teleport too, by using smokebombs from their endless arsenal of said bombs. Maybe the mabari has one of those bombs around it necks. Who knows. It certainly sin t dumbed down. its streamlined, of course.
dirtsa90 wrote...
Aldandil wrote...
Captain Sassy Pants wrote...
Oh, where to begin on actual evidence of dumbing down...
During the demo, I never read any of the snippets of dialogue. I didn't have to. I just moused over to get the icon I wanted at the time and let it go. In Origins, I read through every response and chose the one that I thought best suited my character. Dumbed down. Period.
When equipping my characters in Origins, I looked through all of the available items that I had, weighed them against each other, and chose the ones I thought best suited that character. Now, the game will tell me outright which is better (even which is better for which class) removing any amount of thinking that was previously involved. Dumbed down. Period.
Outside of easy mode, every mode required proper positioning of your characters when planning to use AOE spells, unless you wanted to hurt them. I'd often try to set up my "tank" to hold "aggro", then have the mage drop the AOE on him, damaging him but also hitting a majority of the enemy's forces. Now, in all modes but the absolute hardest (which I never had an interest in playing, but would be forced to in order to use a feature that was previously available to me in a difficulty setting that I do like playing, normal mode) I can just spam away with the big spells with no thought at all to any sort of negative consequences to my team. This removes proper planning and strategy, as well as breaks immersion. I thought it was stupid when they removed this feature from Diablo 2, and I still think it is stupid now. It makes the game "easier" and requires less thinking. Even better, monsters have friendly fire in every difficulty, punishing them for using big spells and making the game even easier for the player. Dumbed down. Period.
The best reason for the third change being proof of "dumbing down" is the reason the debs gave for friendly fire not being an option that you can toggle on and off in any difficulty: someone would accidentally toggle it, not knowing what they did, and then would complain and quit the game because it was "too hard". They just told you what they think of the player base (or the intended one), so what more needs to be said on the subject?
Call it "streamlining" all you want. I'll call it how it is.
Well, how you want to choose your dialogue options is of course your choice. That's not the only way to do it though. Same goes for choosing what weapons to use. You can still spend just as much time thinking about which dialogue option or piece of equipment to pick. For starters, I don't think that the tone markers have replaced the paraphrase when it comes to what message is being conveyed, nor does the stars on the equipment tell you what stats are best for you, you still have to think for yourself. Basically, you still have to do what you did in DA:O.
The lack of FF is definitely a case of "dumbing down", that is to say something that used to require thought no longer does. However, combat is more complex now, with the possibility of causing states such as Stagger and Brittle. It's hardly dumbed down in general. Furthermore, if you do play the game at Nightmare, there is of course no dumbing down at all, quite the contrary.
^This
An example regarding dialogue:
In the demo on Gamestop you could at some point agree to a quest with two different dialogue options, with two very different messages behind which would very likely trigger different reactions/rivalry-friendship porint from your companions. The symbol indicates the tone not what you say, there's a big difference there.
I'm pretty sure the star-rating system is when the item is compared to the equipped one stats-wise, not if it will be any more useful for your Hawke. For example in games like NWN or Balgur's Gate a +1 two-handed sword would be "better" and of a higher ranking than a normal dagger but that didn''t mean it was better to use for a rogue or a magic-user.
I do think it's a shame friendly fire is only available on nightmare and not a toggle on/off mode. Friendly fire made it interesting that you had to plan which spell to use and where but I like that you can't make AoE spells target a moving enemy anymore.
dialogue wasnt as organized thus you spent more time on it.dirtsa90 wrote...
Aldandil wrote...
Captain Sassy Pants wrote...
Oh, where to begin on actual evidence of dumbing down...
During the demo, I never read any of the snippets of dialogue. I didn't have to. I just moused over to get the icon I wanted at the time and let it go. In Origins, I read through every response and chose the one that I thought best suited my character. Dumbed down. Period.
When equipping my characters in Origins, I looked through all of the available items that I had, weighed them against each other, and chose the ones I thought best suited that character. Now, the game will tell me outright which is better (even which is better for which class) removing any amount of thinking that was previously involved. Dumbed down. Period.
Outside of easy mode, every mode required proper positioning of your characters when planning to use AOE spells, unless you wanted to hurt them. I'd often try to set up my "tank" to hold "aggro", then have the mage drop the AOE on him, damaging him but also hitting a majority of the enemy's forces. Now, in all modes but the absolute hardest (which I never had an interest in playing, but would be forced to in order to use a feature that was previously available to me in a difficulty setting that I do like playing, normal mode) I can just spam away with the big spells with no thought at all to any sort of negative consequences to my team. This removes proper planning and strategy, as well as breaks immersion. I thought it was stupid when they removed this feature from Diablo 2, and I still think it is stupid now. It makes the game "easier" and requires less thinking. Even better, monsters have friendly fire in every difficulty, punishing them for using big spells and making the game even easier for the player. Dumbed down. Period.
The best reason for the third change being proof of "dumbing down" is the reason the debs gave for friendly fire not being an option that you can toggle on and off in any difficulty: someone would accidentally toggle it, not knowing what they did, and then would complain and quit the game because it was "too hard". They just told you what they think of the player base (or the intended one), so what more needs to be said on the subject?
Call it "streamlining" all you want. I'll call it how it is.
Well, how you want to choose your dialogue options is of course your choice. That's not the only way to do it though. Same goes for choosing what weapons to use. You can still spend just as much time thinking about which dialogue option or piece of equipment to pick. For starters, I don't think that the tone markers have replaced the paraphrase when it comes to what message is being conveyed, nor does the stars on the equipment tell you what stats are best for you, you still have to think for yourself. Basically, you still have to do what you did in DA:O.
The lack of FF is definitely a case of "dumbing down", that is to say something that used to require thought no longer does. However, combat is more complex now, with the possibility of causing states such as Stagger and Brittle. It's hardly dumbed down in general. Furthermore, if you do play the game at Nightmare, there is of course no dumbing down at all, quite the contrary.
^This
An example regarding dialogue:
In the demo on Gamestop you could at some point agree to a quest with two different dialogue options, with two very different messages behind which would very likely trigger different reactions/rivalry-friendship porint from your companions. The symbol indicates the tone not what you say, there's a big difference there.
I'm pretty sure the star-rating system is when the item is compared to the equipped one stats-wise, not if it will be any more useful for your Hawke. For example in games like NWN or Balgur's Gate a +1 two-handed sword would be "better" and of a higher ranking than a normal dagger but that didn''t mean it was better to use for a rogue or a magic-user.
I do think it's a shame friendly fire is only available on nightmare and not a toggle on/off mode. Friendly fire made it interesting that you had to plan which spell to use and where but I like that you can't make AoE spells target a moving enemy anymore.
Arttis wrote...
For cool effects they decided to not let you see your character run around.......Rawgrim wrote...
Well...the rogues can teleport too, by using smokebombs from their endless arsenal of said bombs. Maybe the mabari has one of those bombs around it necks. Who knows. It certainly sin t dumbed down. its streamlined, of course.
Arttis wrote...
Lore says its fine.Bobad wrote...
Arttis wrote...
It goes against teh lore for teh real dogz be teleportin.Bobad wrote...
Rawgrim wrote...
What about the mabari? In DA2 you just summon him out of thin air, whenever you wish (mabari`s in Kirkwall are magical creatures aparantly). Does this count as "dumbing down"?
It consitutes a change, whether anybody wishes to call it dumbing down, streamlining, rubbish or the dogs bollocks is purely subjective.
What about the Ranger pets in Origins?.
they put bait out and the damn thing comes chargin.
For gameplay purposes its instant.
A single mabari that lives who knows where wont hear any whistle from 500 miles away.
But you may find a bear/wolf/spider nearby.
Captain Sassy Pants wrote...
Oh, where to begin on actual evidence of dumbing down...
During the demo, I never read any of the snippets of dialogue. I didn't have to. I just moused over to get the icon I wanted at the time and let it go. In Origins, I read through every response and chose the one that I thought best suited my character. Dumbed down. Period.
When equipping my characters in Origins, I looked through all of the available items that I had, weighed them against each other, and chose the ones I thought best suited that character. Now, the game will tell me outright which is better (even which is better for which class) removing any amount of thinking that was previously involved. Dumbed down. Period.
Outside of easy mode, every mode required proper positioning of your characters when planning to use AOE spells, unless you wanted to hurt them. I'd often try to set up my "tank" to hold "aggro", then have the mage drop the AOE on him, damaging him but also hitting a majority of the enemy's forces. Now, in all modes but the absolute hardest (which I never had an interest in playing, but would be forced to in order to use a feature that was previously available to me in a difficulty setting that I do like playing, normal mode) I can just spam away with the big spells with no thought at all to any sort of negative consequences to my team. This removes proper planning and strategy, as well as breaks immersion. I thought it was stupid when they removed this feature from Diablo 2, and I still think it is stupid now. It makes the game "easier" and requires less thinking. Even better, monsters have friendly fire in every difficulty, punishing them for using big spells and making the game even easier for the player. Dumbed down. Period.
They bust on in from the alienage.Bobad wrote...
Arttis wrote...
Lore says its fine.Bobad wrote...
Arttis wrote...
It goes against teh lore for teh real dogz be teleportin.Bobad wrote...
Rawgrim wrote...
What about the mabari? In DA2 you just summon him out of thin air, whenever you wish (mabari`s in Kirkwall are magical creatures aparantly). Does this count as "dumbing down"?
It consitutes a change, whether anybody wishes to call it dumbing down, streamlining, rubbish or the dogs bollocks is purely subjective.
What about the Ranger pets in Origins?.
they put bait out and the damn thing comes chargin.
For gameplay purposes its instant.
A single mabari that lives who knows where wont hear any whistle from 500 miles away.
But you may find a bear/wolf/spider nearby.
As enboldened. Now we also have the option to have the dog and a full npc party.
I think you would be lucky to find a giant spider, bear or wolf roaming free inareas such as the Landsmeet chamber or the Pearl.
No... My level 25 mage has 33 talent points. Not counting the 2 talents from Soldier's Peak. I maybe be off by 1 or 2 because of tomes, but that's more than just the initial talent bonus you mention (which is origin dependent).Tleining wrote...
@ Angry
yes, thanks. I was actually waiting for an official post stating that you will NOT receive additional bonus points and through tomes. In that thread, Peter also states that he had heavily invested in 4 Trees. So anything between 20 and 30ish is possible.
We also didn't have access to the inventory and injury packs in the demo. But even if that's right. It's 2 less Talent Points at Character Creation, that's it.
Arttis wrote...
dialogue wasnt as organized thus you spent more time on it.dirtsa90 wrote...
Aldandil wrote...
Captain Sassy Pants wrote...
Oh, where to begin on actual evidence of dumbing down...
During the demo, I never read any of the snippets of dialogue. I didn't have to. I just moused over to get the icon I wanted at the time and let it go. In Origins, I read through every response and chose the one that I thought best suited my character. Dumbed down. Period.
When equipping my characters in Origins, I looked through all of the available items that I had, weighed them against each other, and chose the ones I thought best suited that character. Now, the game will tell me outright which is better (even which is better for which class) removing any amount of thinking that was previously involved. Dumbed down. Period.
Outside of easy mode, every mode required proper positioning of your characters when planning to use AOE spells, unless you wanted to hurt them. I'd often try to set up my "tank" to hold "aggro", then have the mage drop the AOE on him, damaging him but also hitting a majority of the enemy's forces. Now, in all modes but the absolute hardest (which I never had an interest in playing, but would be forced to in order to use a feature that was previously available to me in a difficulty setting that I do like playing, normal mode) I can just spam away with the big spells with no thought at all to any sort of negative consequences to my team. This removes proper planning and strategy, as well as breaks immersion. I thought it was stupid when they removed this feature from Diablo 2, and I still think it is stupid now. It makes the game "easier" and requires less thinking. Even better, monsters have friendly fire in every difficulty, punishing them for using big spells and making the game even easier for the player. Dumbed down. Period.
The best reason for the third change being proof of "dumbing down" is the reason the debs gave for friendly fire not being an option that you can toggle on and off in any difficulty: someone would accidentally toggle it, not knowing what they did, and then would complain and quit the game because it was "too hard". They just told you what they think of the player base (or the intended one), so what more needs to be said on the subject?
Call it "streamlining" all you want. I'll call it how it is.
Well, how you want to choose your dialogue options is of course your choice. That's not the only way to do it though. Same goes for choosing what weapons to use. You can still spend just as much time thinking about which dialogue option or piece of equipment to pick. For starters, I don't think that the tone markers have replaced the paraphrase when it comes to what message is being conveyed, nor does the stars on the equipment tell you what stats are best for you, you still have to think for yourself. Basically, you still have to do what you did in DA:O.
The lack of FF is definitely a case of "dumbing down", that is to say something that used to require thought no longer does. However, combat is more complex now, with the possibility of causing states such as Stagger and Brittle. It's hardly dumbed down in general. Furthermore, if you do play the game at Nightmare, there is of course no dumbing down at all, quite the contrary.
^This
An example regarding dialogue:
In the demo on Gamestop you could at some point agree to a quest with two different dialogue options, with two very different messages behind which would very likely trigger different reactions/rivalry-friendship porint from your companions. The symbol indicates the tone not what you say, there's a big difference there.
I'm pretty sure the star-rating system is when the item is compared to the equipped one stats-wise, not if it will be any more useful for your Hawke. For example in games like NWN or Balgur's Gate a +1 two-handed sword would be "better" and of a higher ranking than a normal dagger but that didn''t mean it was better to use for a rogue or a magic-user.
I do think it's a shame friendly fire is only available on nightmare and not a toggle on/off mode. Friendly fire made it interesting that you had to plan which spell to use and where but I like that you can't make AoE spells target a moving enemy anymore.
Dialogue this time is a snip and the intent/how your gonna say something....way less time because you dont know wtf your gonna say till you say it.Thus it comes down to what you want your personality to be.Once that is done all future decisions dont even need to be read.Look at the pick and choose.then listen.
Of course it wasn't "fine" with regards to the setting with a wolf showing up in the Deep Roads, but that took the back seat to game play, which is as it should be. You had to make abstractions for plenty of things in DA:O (stealth, for instancs), and the same is of course true for backstabbing rogues in DA2.Arttis wrote...
Lore says its fine.Bobad wrote...
Arttis wrote...
It goes against teh lore for teh real dogz be teleportin.Bobad wrote...
Rawgrim wrote...
What about the mabari? In DA2 you just summon him out of thin air, whenever you wish (mabari`s in Kirkwall are magical creatures aparantly). Does this count as "dumbing down"?
It consitutes a change, whether anybody wishes to call it dumbing down, streamlining, rubbish or the dogs bollocks is purely subjective.
What about the Ranger pets in Origins?.
they put bait out and the damn thing comes chargin.
For gameplay purposes its instant.
A single mabari that lives who knows where wont hear any whistle from 500 miles away.
But you may find a bear/wolf/spider nearby.
You get extra talent points in several places, for instance when you become a grey warden and when you cure Arl Eamon. You get one fixed talent and two of your choosing at character creation, that's it. You don't get anymore when you level up.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
No... My level 25 mage has 33 talent points. Not counting the 2 talents from Soldier's Peak. I maybe be off by 1 or 2 because of tomes, but that's more than just the initial talent bonus you mention (which is origin dependent).Tleining wrote...
@ Angry
yes, thanks. I was actually waiting for an official post stating that you will NOT receive additional bonus points and through tomes. In that thread, Peter also states that he had heavily invested in 4 Trees. So anything between 20 and 30ish is possible.
We also didn't have access to the inventory and injury packs in the demo. But even if that's right. It's 2 less Talent Points at Character Creation, that's it.
Rawgrim wrote...
So its reduced from reading through possible answers and such, and picking the one you feel fits the best, to clicking on one out of 3 symbols, and listening to the response. How is this not dumbed down?
Modifié par dirtsa90, 28 février 2011 - 04:39 .
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