298 réponses à ce sujet

[Dubya75]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Anything that gets in the way of the story or the combat game play should be streamlined, simplified, or removed. Managing massive inventories, looting bodies for anything/everything useful, carrying around dumpsters full of equipment that is useless.. all that should be taken out of the game.
Non-combat skills that have no game play purpose, those should be junked too. Want to disarm traps and pick locks? Be a Rogue and have those skills as an innate part of the Rogue class. Hell, give everyone a basic skill in those, in case a Rogue isn't handy.
Remove all that, and more development resources can go to polishing game play and bug-fixing everything from dialog to graphics.

Remove loot? You're joking right? Haha, you had me there for a moment!

[AngryFrozenWater]

BioWare have removed all skills, reduced the number of talents/spells in the lower levels which reduced the overall number at higher levels by about 8, there seems to be only one type of healing potion that fits in the quick heal slot (I assume all other types are gone), the same goes for lyrium potions, no signs of stamina potions, the over the top combat animations seem to be designed for an age group which is not supposed to play the game, because that same age group wants action they have increased to cooldown times of healing spells and potions, the dialogue wheel was designed for people who are not willing to read text (they now can click on icons instead). So, no. I don't think they have succeeded at all. The word streamlined doesn't seem to come close. It is just dumbed down.

[LilyasAvalon]

_Dejanus wrote...

Depends on what you're working from. Frankly, the combat system in Origins had a lot of unneccesary complexity that really only led to confusion and clunkyness. DA2 has not only removed the fat, but toned and improved the muscle. Win in both categories in my opinion.

Agreed.

[Duncan Anderson]

I agree with the OP, for reasons people have already stated.

[Arttis]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Like many I was worried Dragon Age 2 would be a hack n' slash videogame based on the early developer comments about streamlining, accessibility and "something awesome happens."  The demo has come out though and I for one think the tactical gameplay shines as much as before, if not more so, and the changes are for the better (other than the lack of "isometric" camera distance).

The speed of animations and positioning does a lot to make combat more fun while not at all watering down tactics.  The menu system's clear and simple layout offers all the same options as before but in a more concise manner.  The focus on fun, while still being a tactical RPG, is felt with every powerful backstab or twirl of a wizard's staff.  The unique art style remings me of Team Fortress 2 in how it allows for instant recognition and clean lines, distinctive and unique in a crowded (for 20+ years now) genre of medievil fantasy.

For years I have been seeing "accessible" and "streamlining" as horrible buzzwords that actually mean simplification and dumber.  One could argue Bioware's last game, Mass Effect 2, lost a little too much of the RPG aspects in order to streamline and become more accessible.  Dragon Age 2 though?  It seems to me that it is the model to follow for making RPGs more accessible and fun without losing what they are.  Fun combat, easy to understand but challenging to master.  Fast and exciting animations, yet a deep tactical base.  It's more broad in appeal yet still the same core game, and it loses very little complexity.

Thoughts?

they did dumb it down.
they took some talents away and added upgradable spells for more damage...
they took skills away and tied it to a attribute.
they took certain spells like heal and gave it a long cd.Making healing for mages very minimal.*healing while playing a mage took a some effort to keep up assuming there was a lot fo damage being done.Such as timing and which heals best fit the situation as it changes*
This isnt everything.
THe general bit of it is they took a lot of things from teh game that required any amount of planning and focus.
From what I can tell from the game.
I can play and do well in it Half Asleep.
I will still buy because its still good enough.
It did get a bit worse though.imo.

[Maclimes]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

I found that the more I played the demo, the more I liked it.

This.

The first time I played the demo, I was a little bit underwhelmed and irritated. But I played it through with each class to figure out how I wanted to play DA2, then played it again with the different builds for each class to get all my options ... then I played it again and again because it's a lot of fun! I've probably played it through a dozen times now, and my anticipation builds more each day!

[hawat333]

Kronner wrote...

Are you serious? Just look at the map/level layout. Go forward (through narrow corridor, no other way), kill stuff, press button, cutscene, boss fight. And repeat.

DOOM, FPS from 1993, has much more complex map/level layout, with backtracking, secret rooms etc.

Most of today's games are dumbed down to idiotic level.

That's true for the demo, but don't forget that there's an escape scene and a carefully chosen to be straight side quest included.
I expect at least the layout complexity of Mass Effect in quest areas (I hope for much more, in fact). I brought this example up because Eden Prime has the same corridor-like layout.
While there will sadly be less exploration than it was in Origins, I certainly hope the map/level layout will be more complex than it was in the demo. I say let's wait with this for the release.

On the other hand, some elements were streamlined much more than it was necessary. There are several threads pointing it out already, some of them in civilized manner, so I find it unnecessary to recite it here.
But as for the open question of the opening post. No, not utterly. Streamlining a game can be beneficial for getting the attention of a wider audience, but there's no way around dumbing down aspects of the game in the process.

[Rawgrim]

The more I think about it, the more DA2 is starting to remind me of Diablo. Red potions for heal, blue for mana. Click away as fast as you can to kill enemies, and add healing potions to a quick key. And the only thing you are really in charge of, when it comes to your character, is how your character kills stuff.

[AkiKishi]

Depends, on the surface it seems like the changes don't do much. Dig deeper and it's definately a case of dumbing down various aspects of DA. Although it's more as an overall effect rather than any one individual aspect.

The general problem with a company that adopts a dumbing down approach is that with each game it gets worse and worse as they try to get that elusive target audience that led to it in the first place.
DA sold very well, just not as well as CoD et al. Which is what EA want.

[Michael Hamilton]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

BioWare have removed all skills,
reduced the number of talents/spells in the lower levels which reduced
the overall number at higher levels by about 8, there seems to be only
one type of healing potion that fits in the quick heal slot (I assume
all other types are gone), the same goes for lyrium potions, no signs of
stamina potions, the over the top combat animations seem to be designed
for an age group which is not supposed to play the game, because that
same age group wants action they have increased to cooldown times of
healing spells and potions, the dialogue wheel was designed for people
who are not willing to read text (they now can click on icons instead).
So, no. I don't think they have succeeded at all. The word streamlined
doesn't seem to come close. It is just dumbed down.

*edit: Whoopse, had to fix the quote.

Saw this and had to respond (as I worked on the crafting interface, though our designers did up the potions) there are several different potions you can make.  One in particular heals and removes injury.  These other kinds of potions need to be slotted on the quickbar(pc)/battle menu(console) or manually used in another fashion.

Modifié par Michael Hamilton, 28 février 2011 - 11:27 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Michael Hamilton wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

BioWare have removed all skills, reduced the number of talents/spells in the lower levels which reduced  the overall number at higher levels by about 8, there seems to be only one type of healing potion that fits in the quick heal slot (I assume all other types are gone), the same goes for lyrium potions, no signs of stamina potions, the over the top combat animations seem to be designed for an age group which is not supposed to play the game, because that same age group wants action they have increased to cooldown times of healing spells and potions, the dialogue wheel was designed for people who are not willing to read text (they now can click on icons instead). So, no. I don't think they have succeeded at all. The word streamlined doesn't seem to come close. It is just dumbed down.

*edit: Whoopse, had to fix the quote.

Saw this and had to respond (as I worked on the crafting interface, though our designers did up the potions) there are several different potions you can make.  One in particular heals and removes injury.  These other kinds of potions need to be slotted on the quickbar(pc)/battle menu(console) or manually used in another fashion.

Thanks for your reply! It has been appreciated. In between the lines maybe you have read that I fear that only one type of healing potion exist. Same goes for lyrium. Am I correct?

Edit: Clarification... No more "lesser", "greater",  "potent", etc., types.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 février 2011 - 11:36 .

[Tleining]

@ AngryFrozenWater
could you stop posting like that? I happen to like the combat animations, and I'm not the only one. Same for the dialogue wheel. With the Voiceover for Player Characters, i don't want my character to repeat what i just read. If you don't like it, fine, but please don't set yourself up as this one and only true RPG-Fan, making everyone who happens to like those changes 12 year old console kiddies. Makes me want to buy a console to escape the elitism

and i have no idea what you were trying to say about the Talents, could you clarify?

[Morroian]

Arttis wrote...


they did dumb it down.
they took some talents away and added upgradable spells for more damage...
they took skills away and tied it to a attribute.
they took certain spells like heal and gave it a long cd.Making healing for mages very minimal.*healing while playing a mage took a some effort to keep up assuming there was a lot fo damage being done.Such as timing and which heals best fit the situation as it changes*
This isnt everything.
THe general bit of it is they took a lot of things from teh game that required any amount of planning and focus.

Thats crap, the new talent system is more complex and requires more planning to properly spec your character, the nerfing of heal forces us to plan our battles better tactically, the removal of coercion will force us to think our way through persuading someone rather than relying on simple stat..................... oh and the friendship rivalry system is inherently more complex than the approval system from DAO. 

Modifié par Morroian, 28 février 2011 - 11:43 .

[Overban]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

BioWare have removed all skills, reduced the number of talents/spells in the lower levels which reduced the overall number at higher levels by about 8, there seems to be only one type of healing potion that fits in the quick heal slot (I assume all other types are gone), the same goes for lyrium potions, no signs of stamina potions, the over the top combat animations seem to be designed for an age group which is not supposed to play the game, because that same age group wants action they have increased to cooldown times of healing spells and potions, the dialogue wheel was designed for people who are not willing to read text (they now can click on icons instead). So, no. I don't think they have succeeded at all. The word streamlined doesn't seem to come close. It is just dumbed down.

Exactly the dialogue wheel is for people who either can't comprehend well, have a short attention span or are in to much of a hurry to stop, think and make a well planned and informed decision.

Yes, DA2 is for everyone even those who are illiterate.

Modifié par Overban, 28 février 2011 - 11:45 .

[Zigzaggy]

No..Morrian that is simply incorrect.

There is nothing complex or cerebral they dont even deny it.In fact they have already gave us titbits behind the move.

http://news.softpedi...rm=dragon age 2

[apoc_reg]

- The one button to do everything should not be there though (choose and attack target/pick up activate nearest item take all etc) . That is a step to far. I have unmapped it.

- The dialouge wheel is the other main culprit which i personally dont like. I can begrudgingly accept why they made that choice though, its the press's fault for going on about how great it was in Mass Effect 2.

Modifié par apoc_reg, 28 février 2011 - 11:51 .

[Mykel54]

We don´t know yet until we try the full game, the demo was mostly a demonstration of the combat mechanics and infer more than that is judging way too early. I truly hope that they manage it, at least in the interviews it looks like they acknowledge this and tried their best not to dumb down the rpg elements, we will see once we get the game.

Modifié par Mykel54, 28 février 2011 - 11:48 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Tleining wrote...

@ AngryFrozenWater
could you stop posting like that? I happen to like the combat animations, and I'm not the only one. Same for the dialogue wheel. With the Voiceover for Player Characters, i don't want my character to repeat what i just read. If you don't like it, fine, but please don't set yourself up as this one and only true RPG-Fan, making everyone who happens to like those changes 12 year old console kiddies. Makes me want to buy a console to escape the elitism

and i have no idea what you were trying to say about the Talents, could you clarify?

When I am asked about my opinion then I will give that. I will certainly not be silenced because you believe that I represent myself as the only true RPG fan. As you may or may not have noticed I usually stay out of the "what is a RPG or not" discussion. Too many variables involved. But again, I am sorry that you cannot persuade me to stop writing in what I believe.

Edit: About the talents... In DA2 you will get 1 talent per level. So at level 25 you will have 25 talents (or spells). In DA:O you would get more spells at the lower levels. At level 25 you would have 33 talents. That's a difference of 8 spells. Maybe I am off by 1 or 2 because of tomes, but I didn't include the two you'll get from Soldier's Peak.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 février 2011 - 11:56 .

[FDrage]

Can streamlining be done with out dumbing it down?

yes, of course it can. I also wouldn't equate streamlining with dumbing down (don't like that expression anyway). The problem for me is "past experience" in regards to streamlining which almost always resulted in things I enjoyed being taken out. Sometimes these things didn't matter as much as I thought at first and sometimes it felt a lot less of a game for me because of that.
Also I kind of always think (past experience) the streamlining trend is to go 3 steps but would have just been better if it went only 2 steps (aka overshooting the mark somewhat).

Of course to some degree that depends entirely on ones on likes/dislikes and quite often one does remember the examples where it went the wrong way (by a little or much) more readily then the examples where it went the right way. Where that point ("just right" as oppose to "too much") lies depends as many things in gaming, to at least some degree, on ones own personal taste.

[stormhit]

Zigzaggy wrote...

No..Morrian that is simply incorrect.

There is nothing complex or cerebral they dont even deny it.In fact they have already gave us titbits behind the move.

http://news.softpedi...rm=dragon age 2

That says no such thing.

[Morroian]

Zigzaggy wrote...

No..Morrian that is simply incorrect.

There is nothing complex or cerebral they dont even deny it.In fact they have already gave us titbits behind the move.

http://news.softpedi...rm=dragon age 2

Make your own arguments.

[ManiacalEvil]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Tleining wrote...

@ AngryFrozenWater
could you stop posting like that? I happen to like the combat animations, and I'm not the only one. Same for the dialogue wheel. With the Voiceover for Player Characters, i don't want my character to repeat what i just read. If you don't like it, fine, but please don't set yourself up as this one and only true RPG-Fan, making everyone who happens to like those changes 12 year old console kiddies. Makes me want to buy a console to escape the elitism

and i have no idea what you were trying to say about the Talents, could you clarify?

When I am asked about my opinion then I will give that. I will certainly not be silenced because you believe that I represent myself as the only true RPG fan. As you may or may not have noticed I usually stay out of the "what is a RPG or not" discussion. Too many variables involved. But again, I am sorry that you cannot persuade me to stop writing in what I believe.

Continue to write what you believe. Just don't write that anyone who likes what you don't like is a 12 year old. That is a basic rule of respect and civic dialogue.

[Aidunno]

Kronner wrote...

Are you serious? Just look at the map/level layout. Go forward (through narrow corridor, no other way), kill stuff, press button, cutscene, boss fight. And repeat.

And this is different from DAO or any other CRPG ? Open worlds are only really an illusion in the RPG universe. Go wander aimlessly... kill wandering monster... find dungeon.. go forward... kill stuff, press button.. leave... and repeat. So what are you actually after ? Personally I hate wandering around for hours. Yes places like lothering were an "open expanse" but who is to say we don't have areas similar in DA2.. After all we have only seen a demo.

[Vhaius]

I'll see your dumbed down and raise you a game with a lot of the tedium removed.

[AkiKishi]

Lets just take the most obvious example for dumbing down.

DA - Multiple races
DA- A single human

Now you can argue until you are blue in the face that having a single voiced human character is better than any number of silent non humans. But thats still a huge dumbing down (insert streamlining if you prefer) of the previous incarnation of the game.

You can also level the same accusation at the story. Instead a story based around X number of possible Wardens you have a character based on Hawke.