298 réponses à ce sujet

[BounceDK]

No. DA2 is in fact the proof of the opposite.

[Arttis]

Morroian wrote...

Arttis wrote...


they did dumb it down.
they took some talents away and added upgradable spells for more damage...
they took skills away and tied it to a attribute.
they took certain spells like heal and gave it a long cd.Making healing for mages very minimal.*healing while playing a mage took a some effort to keep up assuming there was a lot fo damage being done.Such as timing and which heals best fit the situation as it changes*
This isnt everything.
THe general bit of it is they took a lot of things from teh game that required any amount of planning and focus.

Thats crap, the new talent system is more complex and requires more planning to properly spec your character, the nerfing of heal forces us to plan our battles better tactically, the removal of coercion will force us to think our way through persuading someone rather than relying on simple stat..................... oh and the friendship rivalry system is inherently more complex than the approval system from DAO. 

I believe you are wrong.
WE shall see when the full game comes out.

[Morroian]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lets just take the most obvious example for dumbing down.

DA - Multiple races
DA- A single human

So Planescape Torment is a dumbed down rpg?

[AkiKishi]

Morroian wrote...
Thats crap, the new talent system is more complex and requires more planning to properly spec your character, the nerfing of heal forces us to plan our battles better tactically, the removal of coercion will force us to think our way through persuading someone rather than relying on simple stat..................... oh and the friendship rivalry system is inherently more complex than the approval system from DAO. 

Umm thats kind of the point of a ROLEPLAYING game, to have a characters abilities mean more than the person playing them.

By removing RPG based skills like coercian you are removing options. No longer can I be an evil but charming SOB , instead like ME I am forced down a narrow character path.

Morroian wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lets just take the most obvious example for dumbing down.

DA - Multiple races
DA- A single human

So Planescape Torment is a dumbed down rpg?

There was no previous Planescape game that offered multiple races. Nice try though
Had there been and then it had reverted to one character , that would have been dumbing down.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 février 2011 - 12:14 .

[Tleining]

@ Angry
i wasn't trying to silence you, sheesh. Aside from that, read ManiacalEvils Post.

to the Talent Points. No: http://dragonage.wik...xperience_Table
1 point per Level, 2 at Character Creation, 1 when you become a Grey Warden. We don't know how many Points we get in DA2 at Character Creation or how many Bonus Points we get later on. (actually: i don't know, maybe i missed a dev-post)

Modifié par Tleining, 28 février 2011 - 12:14 .

[ManiacalEvil]

BobSmith101 wrote...
There was no previous Planescape game that offered multiple races. Nice try though
Had there been and then it had reverted to one character , that would have been dumbing down.

If there was, would it be a dumbed down game? Or simply a game who prefered to focus on you being human, thus allowing a much more focused story?

[AngryFrozenWater]

ManiacalEvil wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Tleining wrote...

@ AngryFrozenWater
could you stop posting like that? I happen to like the combat animations, and I'm not the only one. Same for the dialogue wheel. With the Voiceover for Player Characters, i don't want my character to repeat what i just read. If you don't like it, fine, but please don't set yourself up as this one and only true RPG-Fan, making everyone who happens to like those changes 12 year old console kiddies. Makes me want to buy a console to escape the elitism

and i have no idea what you were trying to say about the Talents, could you clarify?

When I am asked about my opinion then I will give that. I will certainly not be silenced because you believe that I represent myself as the only true RPG fan. As you may or may not have noticed I usually stay out of the "what is a RPG or not" discussion. Too many variables involved. But again, I am sorry that you cannot persuade me to stop writing in what I believe.

Continue to write what you believe. Just don't write that anyone who likes what you don't like is a 12 year old. That is a basic rule of respect and civic dialogue.

Again... This is your interpretation. I believe that BioWare adds those types of animations to attract a certain audience. That audience is usually below the age for which the game is certified. I am fine that there are exceptions, but that does not change my stand on it. It is hard to qualify what contributes to "dumbing down", but I think that the animations are part of that, just as the removal of skills, and the other things in my list. It's the image of it all.

We can be certain that BioWare wants to attract console gamers and they should. But even there they are dropping the ball. For an example: You could argue that reducing the length of the text would allow bigger text on the relative lower resolution screens (720 pixels wide if I am not mistaken). But no, go to the tech forum and you can read that some displays for consoles cannot display the text properly. So, there is no technical reason for it. The only thing that remains is "dumbing down" for no reason at all. A lot of people didn't like the wheel in ME and guess what? BioWare adds it to DA2 as well. No option to turn it off. So the whole discussing starts again. I find this attitude of BioWare most disturbing.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 février 2011 - 12:16 .

[rob_k]

Tleining wrote...

@ Angry
i wasn't trying to silence you, sheesh. Aside from that, read ManiacalEvils Post.

to the Talent Points. No: http://dragonage.wik...xperience_Table
1 point per Level, 2 at Character Creation, 1 when you become a Grey Warden. We don't know how many Points we get in DA2 at Character Creation or how many Bonus Points we get later on. (actually: i don't know, maybe i missed a dev-post)

Actually, I'm beginning to see what Angry means now:

http://dragonage.wik...xperience_Table

After completing certain key plot elements (Three in total during Dragon
Age Origins) the Warden will recieve a bonus point in addition to the
ones they gain from leveling. The exception to this being that after the
completion of the second plot element, a Rogue warden will gain a bonus
skill point instead of a bonus talent point


(end of quote)

But it's still impossible to judge how it'll work with DA 2 with regard to bonus talent points. So, I don't know why assumptions are being made with regard to that. (Well I do, but it doesn't make sense)

[AngryFrozenWater]

Tleining wrote...

@ Angry
i wasn't trying to silence you, sheesh. Aside from that, read ManiacalEvils Post.

to the Talent Points. No: http://dragonage.wik...xperience_Table
1 point per Level, 2 at Character Creation, 1 when you become a Grey Warden. We don't know how many Points we get in DA2 at Character Creation or how many Bonus Points we get later on. (actually: i don't know, maybe i missed a dev-post)

1 per level. That's it.

[Lumikki]

I don't know what to say. I haven't played at all DA2 yet.

How ever, what I have experience in this forum for while is that "dumped down" is expression what is used by some people when something get changed in the game design and the player wanted same old same. Usually the same old same is statical year 1980 traditional RPG. So, it seem to be more like dislike or liking some style.

Also the comment of role-playing isn't totally right. Point of role-playing is player to play role. It doesn't matter if it's player or character skill as long it's role played. How ever, people could judge can player use they own skill good enough to play the role. That's judgement call.

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 février 2011 - 12:38 .

[AkiKishi]

ManiacalEvil wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
There was no previous Planescape game that offered multiple races. Nice try though
Had there been and then it had reverted to one character , that would have been dumbing down.

If there was, would it be a dumbed down game? Or simply a game who prefered to focus on you being human, thus allowing a much more focused story?

It would have been dumbed down period.
Regarless of any story excuses, you are removing options that previously existed.

I know it's easier to write stories around known protagonists, I've played so many JRPGS it's hard to keep track. But that does not change that the game has been dumbed down from the options availble in DA.

[ManiacalEvil]

BobSmith101 wrote...
It would have been dumbed down period.
Regarless of any story excuses, you are removing options that previously existed.

I know it's easier to write stories around known protagonists, I've played so many JRPGS it's hard to keep track. But that does not change that the game has been dumbed down from the options availble in DA.

And why is removing options that previsously existed considered dumbing down. For example, th e writers came up with an awesome story but it only fits humans. Isn't it better to remove all other races and have that story in rather than having a meh story (which Origins had, IMO) and those races in? More options isn't always good,  I for one wouldn't mind a story built uniquely around mages, if said story was about for example a rebellion against the chantry and possesed a very good depth of lore and class specific interaction. That would be adding depth, despite removing options, IMO.

[ManiacalEvil]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

ManiacalEvil wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Tleining wrote...

@ AngryFrozenWater
could you stop posting like that? I happen to like the combat animations, and I'm not the only one. Same for the dialogue wheel. With the Voiceover for Player Characters, i don't want my character to repeat what i just read. If you don't like it, fine, but please don't set yourself up as this one and only true RPG-Fan, making everyone who happens to like those changes 12 year old console kiddies. Makes me want to buy a console to escape the elitism

and i have no idea what you were trying to say about the Talents, could you clarify?

When I am asked about my opinion then I will give that. I will certainly not be silenced because you believe that I represent myself as the only true RPG fan. As you may or may not have noticed I usually stay out of the "what is a RPG or not" discussion. Too many variables involved. But again, I am sorry that you cannot persuade me to stop writing in what I believe.

Continue to write what you believe. Just don't write that anyone who likes what you don't like is a 12 year old. That is a basic rule of respect and civic dialogue.

Again... This is your interpretation. I believe that BioWare adds those types of animations to attract a certain audience. That audience is usually below the age for which the game is certified. I am fine that there are exceptions, but that does not change my stand on it. It is hard to qualify what contributes to "dumbing down", but I think that the animations are part of that, just as the removal of skills, and the other things in my list. It's the image of it all.

We can be certain that BioWare wants to attract console gamers and they should. But even there they are dropping the ball. For an example: You could argue that reducing the length of the text would allow bigger text on the relative lower resolution screens (720 pixels wide if I am not mistaken). But no, go to the tech forum and you can read that some displays for consoles cannot display the text properly. So, there is no technical reason for it. The only thing that remains is "dumbing down" for no reason at all. A lot of people didn't like the wheel in ME and guess what? BioWare adds it to DA2 as well. No option to turn it off. So the whole discussing starts again. I find this attitude of BioWare most disturbing.

I am a PC gamer through and through and I don't really see how the animations attract children to the game. Why can't adults prefer a faster approach rather than a dull and boring one?

[AkiKishi]

ManiacalEvil wrote...

And why is removing options that previsously existed considered dumbing down. For example, th e writers came up with an awesome story but it only fits humans. Isn't it better to remove all other races and have that story in rather than having a meh story (which Origins had, IMO) and those races in? More options isn't always good,  I for one wouldn't mind a story built uniquely around mages, if said story was about for example a rebellion against the chantry and possesed a very good depth of lore and class specific interaction. That would be adding depth, despite removing options, IMO.

Makes no difference , if the awsome story can only be told with one character, then find another story and use that one in another game. If it's that awsome, then it should be no problem selling that new game without needing to rely on an established franchise.

Had DA been like ME1, then clearly no one could have complained that reverting to a single human protagonist was dumbing down. But DA was not like ME1.

As I said previously you can make all the excuses and try to validate in any number of ways but DA2 is a dumbed down version of what was offered in DA.

[ManiacalEvil]

BobSmith101 wrote...

ManiacalEvil wrote...

And why is removing options that previsously existed considered dumbing down. For example, th e writers came up with an awesome story but it only fits humans. Isn't it better to remove all other races and have that story in rather than having a meh story (which Origins had, IMO) and those races in? More options isn't always good,  I for one wouldn't mind a story built uniquely around mages, if said story was about for example a rebellion against the chantry and possesed a very good depth of lore and class specific interaction. That would be adding depth, despite removing options, IMO.

Makes no difference , if the awsome story can only be told with one character, then find another story and use that one in another game. If it's that awsome, then it should be no problem selling that new game without needing to rely on an established franchise.

Had DA been like ME1, then clearly no one could have complained that reverting to a single human protagonist was dumbing down. But DA was not like ME1.

As I said previously you can make all the excuses and try to validate in any number of ways but DA2 is a dumbed down version of what was offered in DA.

Then all I can say is I welcome the dumbing down and I look forward to what more dumbing down awesomeness BioWare will add to it's games in the future, because dumbing down seems to  add so much depth to games.

[soteria]

I disagree that fewer choices equates to dumber. A nuclear physicist might have fewer employment options than a construction worker, but does that mean his profession is dumbed down? People complained that DA:O was "dumbed down" from DnD because you didn't have 20 classes and 7 races to choose from.
Using a binary argument like "if the number of choices in game b is fewer than the number in game a, then game b is dumbed down" is easy and simplistic to make (dare I say "dumbed down"?), but it ignores factors like quality that can makes all the difference.

[AngryFrozenWater]

ManiacalEvil wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Tleining wrote...

@ AngryFrozenWater
could you stop posting like that? I happen to like the combat animations, and I'm not the only one. Same for the dialogue wheel. With the Voiceover for Player Characters, i don't want my character to repeat what i just read. If you don't like it, fine, but please don't set yourself up as this one and only true RPG-Fan, making everyone who happens to like those changes 12 year old console kiddies. Makes me want to buy a console to escape the elitism

and i have no idea what you were trying to say about the Talents, could you clarify?

When I am asked about my opinion then I will give that. I will certainly not be silenced because you believe that I represent myself as the only true RPG fan. As you may or may not have noticed I usually stay out of the "what is a RPG or not" discussion. Too many variables involved. But again, I am sorry that you cannot persuade me to stop writing in what I believe.

Continue to write what you believe. Just don't write that anyone who likes what you don't like is a 12 year old. That is a basic rule of respect and civic dialogue.

This is what I wrote about it...

the over the top combat animations seem to be designed for an age group which is not supposed to play the game

I think it is civil enough and it does not claim that anyone who likes those is a 12 year old. As you can hopefully see the intention is to point out that I feel these are designed to attract a group below the age for which the game is certified. And yes. I stand by that. Try not to read more into it than it says. It's just part of the overal image of the dumbing down spiral.

[Tleining]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Tleining wrote...

@ Angry
i wasn't trying to silence you, sheesh. Aside from that, read ManiacalEvils Post.

to the Talent Points. No: http://dragonage.wik...xperience_Table
1 point per Level, 2 at Character Creation, 1 when you become a Grey Warden. We don't know how many Points we get in DA2 at Character Creation or how many Bonus Points we get later on. (actually: i don't know, maybe i missed a dev-post)

1 per level. That's it.

right, Origins and DA2, both, so is there a dev post, saying that we don't get Bonus-Talent-Points in DA2? Because i only remember Peter Thomas' Post, about having heavily invested in 4 Trees.

[Aldandil]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

BioWare have removed all skills, reduced the number of talents/spells in the lower levels which reduced the overall number at higher levels by about 8, there seems to be only one type of healing potion that fits in the quick heal slot (I assume all other types are gone), the same goes for lyrium potions, no signs of stamina potions, the over the top combat animations seem to be designed for an age group which is not supposed to play the game, because that same age group wants action they have increased to cooldown times of healing spells and potions, the dialogue wheel was designed for people who are not willing to read text (they now can click on icons instead). So, no. I don't think they have succeeded at all. The word streamlined doesn't seem to come close. It is just dumbed down.

I'd say that most of your argument are mostly based in what you like or dislike, rather than in what is more or less complicated which must be the definition for what is or isn't "dumbed down".  Furthermore, "dumbed down" is clearly a comparison, in this case to DA:O, so it's not really an issue of whether something is complicated or not, it's an issue of whether it's complicated in comparison to DA:O.

Here are some responses to your arguments in order of appearance:
1: The removal of skills: The lack of skills certainly gives you one less type choice in the game, no arguing about that. I would
like to question the impact the skills had on DA:O, though. It could be
argued that skills didn't really impact the game much, except for
possibly when you had to make a trade off between coercion and combat
skills for the main character. Apart from that, there were no tactical
ramifications to what skills you picked, considering the very low need
to use them. Saying that something is "dumbed down", less complex, just
because you have fewer choices isn't wrong, exactly, but that point
isn't really as good when those choices don't make much of a difference.
That's like saying that DA2 is infinitely more complicated than
Baldur's Gate, since there are thousands of different faces that you can
make for your character, where there are only about twenty different
portraits in BG.

2: Fewer talents on lower levels: This argument is pretty much pointless considering that we for one don't know what the leveling speed is. We gained two levels in the first two fights, basically, so even though you only start with one spell compared to DA:O's three, we quickly catch up. This could very well be a way of easing us into the game considering that the opening isn't as "cushioned" as several of the Origins openings were.

3: Only one type of health pot: That's true, that means less options. What level of impact does that have on combat in DA2 compared to DA:O? Practically none. There were always plenty of different health pots of different types. But I'll grant you that it's a bit less comlicated with one compared to several.

4: Over the top animations: That
doesn't effect game play one bit. That's like saying that chess is the
most complicated game in the world just because there are no animations
at all when you conquer a piece. It could be considered more complicated than DA2 or DA:O for other reasons, but not because of the animations.

5: Longer cooldown on pots and heals. That's nonsense. Less healing doesn't make things easier, it makes combat harder. The different levels of health pots in DA:O were on effectually made them independent of cooldowns, which certainly didn't give cause for any brain activity when trying to decide what time would be optimal for using a health pot - you could do that anytime.

6: Icons on the dialogue wheel: Here we have a yes and no. It's easier to gauge the tone of each answer now, that much is true. However, simply reading the tone of an answer is not enough to decide what that answer will be. To do that, you still need to be literate. Some would argue that it's very difficult (and therefore also complicated, requiring sincere afterthought) to pick an answer now that we only have paraphrases as a foundation when making a decision. I personally don't find it easier than before.

In response to other posters:

Since there aren't actually fewer talents to choose from (about ninety (6*10+3*10) for each class plus the companion specific specializatons), it's pretty silly to claim that that part of character creation has been simplified. Having upgrades for different talents creates a very interesting choics: Will I be more effective with one more talent or bing better at what I'm already doing. That's hardly less complicated.

Companion inventory is less complicated and therefore "dumbed down", same goes for companions being locked to a certain weapon style.

Whether or not something is "dumbed down" or not isn't entirely subjective. The words themselves clearly indicates that something must require less brainwork than something else. This is fairly quantifiable. Some subjectivity comes into play when deciding whether or not you actually have to think about something. I'm sure most people would agree with me when I say that DA2 isn't more complex than BG just because there are more appearance options in the character creator. The question is what difference the differences make. I don't see any evidence that DA2 is less complex tactically than DA:O, but if I'm able to auto-attack myself through Nightmare, I'll be willing to agree that it is.

[AkiKishi]

ManiacalEvil wrote...

Then all I can say is I welcome the dumbing down and I look forward to what more dumbing down awesomeness BioWare will add to it's games in the future, because dumbing down seems to  add so much depth to games.

That's fine, it's your opinion that you like it and you are not trying to claim it's not happening. Mine would be that you improve the options you already had rather than throw them away just to have some fairly mediocre VA.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 février 2011 - 12:39 .

[McHoger]

I guess we will have to see, but I generally find it a good rule to ignore anyone who genuinely uses the phrase "dumbed down".

[Lumikki]

BobSmith101 wrote...

ManiacalEvil wrote...

Then all I can say is I welcome the dumbing down and I look forward to what more dumbing down awesomeness BioWare will add to it's games in the future, because dumbing down seems to  add so much depth to games.

That's fine, it's your opinion that you like it and you are not trying to claim it's not happening.

No, he/she is saying if you say it's "improved quality product" he/she will agree, because the change was to better direction in his/her opinion. Meaning what word you use for change has no meaning. Because it's like or dislike the changes.

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 février 2011 - 12:42 .

[Aidunno]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I think it is civil enough and it does not claim that anyone who likes those is a 12 year old. As you can hopefully see the intention is to point out that I feel these are designed to attract a group below the age for which the game is certified. And yes. I stand by that. Try not to read more into it than it says. It's just part of the overal image of the dumbing down spiral.

Whilst I tend to agree with the exploding blood, guts, gore not being aimed at the older demographic I know plenty of so called "mature gamers" who like that sort of thing. I also agree that the visuals give the impression of a "dumbing down spiral" even when one does not exist. I could say it's simply my age after all, I also think most of the modern pop music is awful.

@bobsmith101.. So I create 10 character "races"- They are all alike only I move a couple of stats around, +1 here, +1 there. I now have a complex game yes ?

Modifié par Aidunno, 28 février 2011 - 12:58 .

[Superposition]

"Dumbing down" is a vague term. Anyway I feel that Dragon Age 2 will have more complex metagame. Tactical gameplay has been altered in subtle ways. Personally I reserve judgment until I finish my first playthrough  (@Nightmare Difficulty). However the removal of friendly fire from Hard Difficulty is dubious. We will know soon enough.

Modifié par Superposition, 28 février 2011 - 12:57 .

[AkiKishi]

Aidunno wrote...

@bobsmith101.. So I create 10 character "races"- They are all alike only I move a couple of stats around, +1 here, +1 there. I now have a complex game yes ?

You have a potentially more complex game than you could ever have with a single character yes.