257 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramus Quaritch]

I remember when you had a limited number of spells you could cast at one time and once you casted them you had to rest and prepare the next set of spells before casting again...

[SnowHeart1]

@ some of the more recent posters, excepting Peter:

<_<  Okay, I'll "heal spam", you attack spam. Yay! We wonz the internetz. Or should I find a quote I like an just say "This" in order to pwnz?   

@ Koiruoho:  I think you're right in that it comes down to playstyle, but to say "the kind of games these are" ignores what DAO was/is and how it is different from DA2. Some of us liked the mechanics in DAO; we are not ignoring what the game is. We liked the way the mechanic worked there and found it made Heal a useful spell. We do not like it in DA2 as we do not find Heal to be useful (which is different than "useless"). That's all some people, such as myself, are saying.

Let me put it another way, and then I'm getting out of this thread. You say the way heal worked in DAO made combat too easy because the party had too much health and thereby eliminated a focus on tactics. I say the way heal "works" in DA2 makes it too easy because it is emblematic of a larger shift to just doing as much damage as quickly as possible (without thinking about different ways to win) and thereby eliminates a focus on tactics.

[lv12medic]

Peter Thomas wrote...
 Healing Aura isn't something that's meant to be overpowering by itself, it's supposed to be more noticeable over time.

Sounds potentially useful for those long drawn out Sock'em Bop'em fights.

[Xewaka]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...
I remember when you had a limited number of spells you could cast at one time and once you casted them you had to rest and prepare the next set of spells before casting again...

Yes, and you could basically rest whenever you wanted, negating any offset... Good days, those...

[daywalker03]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The cooldown on healing spells is tactical whether you like it or not. Being able to spam an ability every 10 seconds is not tactical. Having to use your judgment about who deserves a heal spell because you know it's 60 seconds until you can cast it again IS tactical. Sorry if you don't like the cooldown, but too bad.

I was thinking about making my first Mage a Spirit Healer, but after reading this thread, I'm not going to take any specializations; I don't want to be a Force Mage or Blood Mage, and I'm darn sure not playing a (dare I say it) nerfed specialization because some people think all I want to do is spam my abilities.

[Ramus Quaritch]

Xewaka wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...
I remember when you had a limited number of spells you could cast at one time and once you casted them you had to rest and prepare the next set of spells before casting again...

Yes, and you could basically rest whenever you wanted, negating any offset... Good days, those...

But if you rest in the wilderness, with everyone half dead, then there was a good chance you would be ambushed and eaten by a swarm of woodland critters.  Granted, they could have increased the ambush chances to deter spamming rest, but it was still fun to clear area, heal, rest, and repeat.  Ah, the good old days. 

Modifié par Ramus Quaritch, 01 mars 2011 - 12:56 .

[Beerfish]

So there I am after leveling up thinking of what spell to take.

In the time it takes to cast and recoup 1 heal I can cast.

6 Fireballs or
6 Winters Grasp or
3 Mind Blasts or
3 Cones of Cold or
2 Crushing Prisons or
2 Firestorms

Pretty easy decision. I guess we can say that we spam fireballs now instead of heals.

[SnowHeart1]

Beerfish wrote...

Now you're thinking "tactically"; especially since there's no more friendly fire!  /sarcasm

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 01 mars 2011 - 01:03 .

[Koiruoho]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

@ some of the more recent posters, excepting Peter:

<_<  Okay, I'll "heal spam", you attack spam. Yay! We wonz the internetz. Or should I find a quote I like an just say "This" in order to pwnz?   

@ Koiruoho:  I think you're right in that it comes down to playstyle, but to say "the kind of games these are" ignores what DAO was/is and how it is different from DA2. Some of us liked the mechanics in DAO; we are not ignoring what the game is. We liked the way the mechanic worked there and found it made Heal a useful spell. We do not like it in DA2 as we do not find Heal to be useful (which is different than "useless"). That's all some people, such as myself, are saying.

Let me put it another way, and then I'm getting out of this thread. You say the way heal worked in DAO made combat too easy because the party had too much health and thereby eliminated a focus on tactics. I say the way heal "works" in DA2 makes it too easy because it is emblematic of a larger shift to just doing as much damage as quickly as possible (without thinking about different ways to win) and thereby eliminates a focus on tactics.

That post was more just me musing about roleplaying concerns. I found that the healing spell, as it was in DA:O, was simply overpowered with the cooldown it had. I can just disregard it and live & let live, obviously, but I think cranking up the cooldown is the right choice to make the game more of a challenge, especially on higher difficulties.

What I don't understand is this talk about 'other ways to win'. It's a battle, the one who's still breathing when the dust settles is the victor. If you're able to keep a constant chain of healing on your team, there's not much chance of you losing. If I wanted to get through DA:O without the help of healing spells or poultices I'd have to use every trick in the book and I'd still probably fail miserably. If I can outheal everything the enemy throws at me, why should I even bother to use spells like paralyze or horror or whatever?

In fact, that way I'd just have more incentive to build up my teammates with builds geared for simple wholesale slaughter without any regard for debilitating effects. I realize that if you play on nightmare you're still going to have to use crowd control but with the healing as it is in DA:O, I have a huge margin of error to work with. If I only have limited healing options, I'm going to have to work out ways to protect my characters from damage. It MIGHT be as simple just killing things as fast as I can but I highly doubt that'd work out. I'm going to have to mix it up with damage, crowd control and healing effects (at least I hope so).

But since you said you're leaving the thread, this'll probably fall to deaf ears. I'll gladly agree to disagree, though.

Modifié par Koiruoho, 01 mars 2011 - 01:20 .

[rabidhellhound]

I agree with the OP, this is getting ridiculous. I don't mind INDIVIDUAL cooldowns on potions. You could claim something like having too much medicine too soon is harmful or some bull. I don't mind having a SLIGHTLY longer cooldown on the heal spell. After all, it heals a good percentage, so something around the lines of 15-20sec would be good, especially considering how we only have ONE healing spell now. But having a 60sec cooldown on the only heal spell and having a global 30sec cooldown on potions...

Has no one ever considered AoE spells and skills? It not only ever the tank that gets injured. Other team members do to. With those long cooldowns, it pretty much means that in a battle, especially the though, long ones, the tank only gets the healing and everyone else has to find ways to squeeze in healing somewhere.

As for making the player use more tactics... Isn't that what higher difficulties are for? Some of us just want to play the game, have fun, and not worry about having to perfect tactics because of one fight or another. I like challenge, but I also like some leeway for error or just plain being able to "set it and forget it" play. I don't want to have to think about how I'm going to set up healing tactics for this battle, and how I need to change them for that. Or how I need to think like a programmer with "If... then" statements that can account for every senario. Sorry, but healing is boring to me and I just want to be able to set some basic tactics that I know will work for 95% of everything and move on with life.

I understand that whole idea of wanting better tactics. I agree with an individual cooldown on potions to keep people from spamming them and all, but with the heal spell having such a long cooldown it means that most of your healing comes from items (which I've never really liked using in games anyways). However, with items nerfed, it means that one member of the party is going to be forced to be a mage and a dedicated healer with that ability activated far too often.

If the developers wanted players thinking more tactically, then they should have made it wear enemies themselves use more abilities and tactics at higher difficulties along with their higher health and damage values. Give the enemy more crowd control or slightly shorter cooldowns or something. That I don't mind. But making me worry more and more about having to heal... now I'm forced to think a lot more about an area of the game that slows down the combat experience (which has been the aspect that they were trying to improve).

They should have left healing as it was, or made small changes to it. If the player wants to abuse the system and make the game easier then it's our choice to make. I for one didn't use items that often in DA:O to prevent this issue. But it was MY CHOICE not to abuse a system. Just like it was my choice to abuse the money glitch so that I could get all the items that I wanted. If Bioware wants to change the system a bit to help prevent this, fine, but don't break something that doesn't need to be broken. I'll use or abuse anything as I see fit because I'm the gamer and it's MY experience.

[SnowHeart1]

Koiruoho wrote...

I'll gladly agree to disagree, though.

Sent you a PM but, in short, ditto.  

[rabidhellhound]

Koiruoho wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

@ Koiruoho:  I think you're right in that it comes down to playstyle, but to say "the kind of games these are" ignores what DAO was/is and how it is different from DA2. Some of us liked the mechanics in DAO; we are not ignoring what the game is. We liked the way the mechanic worked there and found it made Heal a useful spell. We do not like it in DA2 as we do not find Heal to be useful (which is different than "useless"). That's all some people, such as myself, are saying.

Let me put it another way, and then I'm getting out of this thread. You say the way heal worked in DAO made combat too easy because the party had too much health and thereby eliminated a focus on tactics. I say the way heal "works" in DA2 makes it too easy because it is emblematic of a larger shift to just doing as much damage as quickly as possible (without thinking about different ways to win) and thereby eliminates a focus on tactics.

That post was more just me musing about roleplaying concerns. I found that the healing spell, as it was in DA:O, was simply overpowered with the cooldown it had. I can just disregard it and live & let live, obviously, but I think cranking up the cooldown is the right choice to make the game more of a challenge, especially on higher difficulties.

What I don't understand is this talk about 'other ways to win'. It's a battle, the one who's still breathing when the dust settles is the victor. If you're able to keep a constant chain of healing on your team, there's not much chance of you losing. If I wanted to get through DA:O without the help of healing spells or poultices I'd have to use every trick in the book and I'd still probably fail miserably. If I can outheal everything the enemy throws at me, why should I even bother to use spells like paralyze or horror or whatever?

In fact, that way I'd just have more incentive to build up my teammates with builds geared for simple wholesale slaughter without any regard for debilitating effects. I realize that if you play on nightmare you're still going to have to use crowd control but with the healing as it is in DA:O, I have a huge margin of error to work with. If I only have limited healing options, I'm going to have to work out ways to protect my characters from damage. It MIGHT be as simple just killing things as fast as I can but I highly doubt that'd work out. I'm going to have to mix it up with damage, crowd control and healing effects (at least I hope so).

I think that you both have some ligimate concerns.  Was the cooldown in DA:O too short?  I believe so, and lengthening it a bit would be for the best.  Not the 60sec cooldown that it is, but somewhere in the ballpark of 15-20secs would cut out more than half of those heals from DA:O, making the game more challenging but not grueling in just that one move.

As for the claim that limiting healing turns the game into a bash fest were the idea for any battle is "Beat them down before they beat you down" I'd have to agree.  Granted, the demo was limited in its scope, but many of the battles seemed to be more designed for quickly trying to beat my way through the enemies to avoid having to worry about potion cooldown rates than to have different stragies for different parties.  Every fight seemed either designed for a short fight or the long haul.  Nothing in between.

Which brings me to the tactics thought posted by both.  One thing that I loved about DA:O was that I could play a different character each time do to either class or abilities.  This is especially true for the mage class, which is my favorite.  There are so many options between nuking to crowd control to healing/ boosting and everything inbetween.  This switch seems like that the game has moved more towards nuking the enemy and away from the rest since healing has a long cooldown and CC's now have percentages of working.  I don't mind cranking out more damage, but I'm not fond of worrying about the rest not working or being available.

Truth be told, I'd like a compromise between what was and what is.  What was was too easily abused.  What is seems to take away from a wholistic idea of RPG gameplay.  I hope that they either change or patch healing and potions by the time that the game gets released.

[Koiruoho]

I can certainly agree with the sentiment that games should be fun - I aim to entertain myself and not have an ulcer.  I'll also have to concede that I've only played the demo (obviously) so that 60 seconds might be way too harsh for me to actually enjoy myself at nightmare. My only concern is that a constant heal chain should not be possible. 

Just so long as it wouldn't be a return to that, I don't think I'd have any problems with a slightly more forgiving cooldown. I'd imagine that having the cooldown drop in increments with the difficulty level and staying constant on normal and below would probably be pretty nice.

[sassperella]

so potions global cooldown..... I assumed that to mean as I read it that if you use, for example a lyrium potion then you couldn't use a healing or stamina potion on that character for 30 seconds. But the last couple of posts I've read indicate that the global cooldown means if you use a healing potion on one character you can't use one on any character for 30 seconds. Which of these is correct?

[Blackened25]

If you think of the DA2 heal spell as basically an extra non consumable potion that you can pop once a short fight or maybe twice in a long fight, it's not so bad. I don't see any reason why a mage wouldn't want to take it, though it's clearly not a necessity. In a way, that's a good thing. In DA:O, I often felt like i was gimping myself if I chose not to take Wynne with me, as her healing trivialized most fights. In DA2, based on the demo i suspect i'll feel gimped if I don't take an aoe capable mage and archer with me at all times.
It seems like speccing a bit of healing and support magic onto a mostly combat mage should be viable in DA2. I didn't feel it was really ideal to do this in DA:O, specialized casters seemed the way to go. So you're basically giving up a pure support role caster, but gaining the ability to bring a more general and well rounded mage with you. I think that's a fair trade off, and makes for a diferent feeling type of party.

[Koiruoho]

sassperella wrote...

so potions global cooldown..... I assumed that to mean as I read it that if you use, for example a lyrium potion then you couldn't use a healing or stamina potion on that character for 30 seconds. But the last couple of posts I've read indicate that the global cooldown means if you use a healing potion on one character you can't use one on any character for 30 seconds. Which of these is correct?

Depends. In the demo I could chug potions in succession with different characters but I really have no idea if that's the case in the full game.

[Kileyan]

Ok I followed the thread and Peter Thomas' response, then I saw folks saying that if this was the case, they weren't going to bother with any of the mage specializations.

I don't know what they mean. Do they mean each mage spec has an activated aura, that precludes them from actually using many of the spells they invested in?

For example blood aura means no heals or buffs, force aura means no elemental spells, heal aura mean no damage spells. Is that the gist of the system where people say no specs are worth taking or just negative guessing?

[asaiasai]

Koiruoho wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

GunClubGirl wrote...

Since when is casting a healing spell "not tactical". It's just as tactical as any other battle action.

Apparently not. The forumites have spoken, and woe betide those who heal as well as harm, for to heal is to suxors while to harm is to pwn. 

Koiruoho wrote...

It's not about whether an action like casting a spell or using a skill is tactical, it's about what that particular button does and what sort of tactics that effect opens up for you. In the case of the heal spell, it enables you the tactic of pressing that button a hundred times in a row, or better yet, having the AI cast it a hundred times in a row. Conversely limiting the use of this skill forces you to think about other buttons to press and mostly the usage of these other buttons involve at least a bit more lateral thinking than 'health go up' .

Right... because that's the only thing I did in DAO... was spam the heal quickkey. 

No, you didn't. That doesn't mean that what the heal spell did in conjuction with health poultices was give you, for all intents and purposes, an infinite health pool since you'd have lyrium potions up the wazoo. Is it really that hard to see that by limiting the usage of that spell you'll have to think of more ways to mitigate the damage done to your party? Also, I may come across as abrasive but it's starting to irk me that we're on page 9 of this thread and people keep chiming in with strawmen.

Then go away the problem solves itself for you right there, now back to the discussion.

Asai

[asaiasai]

Ten pages and all i have seen so far is the same old argument, some folks were able to word it more eloquent but in the end it was still "I play this way so you should have to as well." Pardon my lack of eloquencebut  that is total bull****e.

You want to click a button a hundred times to cast a fireball, or glyphs, or any of the other supposed CC or DPS measures you choose, why is that any more acceptable than clicking on a heal spell the same number of times?

Any one want to answer that question with a real answer or are we going to go on for ten more pages of replies "i play this way so you should also have to".

In the end it really boils down to choice because as a person, a player all you really have is the choices you can make, or in this case the illusion of choice. Again like ME2 the tactics have been decided for you from on high because someone decided that healing was boring when i think glyphs, CC and all the other nonsense is boring. I think it probably has more to do with from what i saw in the demo the limited creativity associated with encounter design so healing was nerfed to add a level of difficulty that should have been done in the encounter design process not some half assed healing nerf. 

All the healing nerf did was remove one aspect of functionability from the mage class and narrow the focus of the entire class. From what i saw in the demo sure mages have a ****e load of DPS but can not take a hit, so now instead of any signifigant contribution to party combat a mage will still be standing around doing nothing because thier tadpole asses cannot cash the check thier aligator DPS writes, no difference just the illusion of difference, because your still standing around doing nothing.

My mage spent most of the demo dead, where a fire ball or a frost spell was a sure way to kill a few mobs those that were not killed outright came over and killed the mage. I have no aggro management other than a taunt by the tank and with out the ability to heal the tank effectively they would die as well. I could not beat the demo with a mage because i could not keep the mage alive, or keep the tank alive and once either died it was all over. 

I was able to stomp the demo as a tank but i had Bethany assigned to nothing but heal any DPS she threw was on the target i was on and i controlled her manually when she tossed the dps if not she died. Anytime i let her loose she would DPS in spectacular fashion, impressive really but it was only for a short time and then die. If that is the idea as it seems to be for the mage class let me be the first to say is just plain stupid, one dimensional.

It is my mana pool how i choose to use it should be ENTIRELY UP TO ME, and if there is any tool kit released the first thing i intend to fix is the heals so that a heal mage is a viable build. I will reduce the cool down, and the effect of the spell and probably increase the cost in mana to be on line with the amounts of mana a DPSer mage would expend during the same combat encounter, balance. I find it rather irritating that i am going to have to FIX something and the game is not even out yet, but this seems to be more the case not just with Bioware but most games anymore.

Asai

[Aidunno]

asaiasai wrote...

Ten pages and all i have seen so far is the same old argument, some folks were able to word it more eloquent but in the end it was still "I play this way so you should have to as well."

I agree. One of  the core gaming experiences is learning to adapt to a game. Saying that this is a sequel so I can understand why, if someone plays in a certain way, they expect to play using a similar methodology in the sequel. There's been lots of comments on healing and friendly fire. I'm aware however that the game will have been scaled bearing in mind these two elements. It will be interesting to see how the game progresses bearing in mind the enemy archtypes mentioned in the gamespot video. Only after trying the full game on at least hard will I be able to really judge if things like healing actually work in the setting.

[Loc'n'lol]

asaiasai wrote...

[/u][i]You want to click a button a hundred times to cast a fireball, or glyphs, or any of the other supposed CC or DPS measures you choose, why is that any more acceptable than clicking on a heal spell the same number of times?

You can't cast 3 fireballs every 5 seconds, which is what DAO healing spam was.

[Koiruoho]

asaiasai wrote...

Koiruoho wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

GunClubGirl wrote...

Since when is casting a healing spell "not tactical". It's just as tactical as any other battle action.

Apparently not. The forumites have spoken, and woe betide those who heal as well as harm, for to heal is to suxors while to harm is to pwn. 

Koiruoho wrote...

It's not about whether an action like casting a spell or using a skill is tactical, it's about what that particular button does and what sort of tactics that effect opens up for you. In the case of the heal spell, it enables you the tactic of pressing that button a hundred times in a row, or better yet, having the AI cast it a hundred times in a row. Conversely limiting the use of this skill forces you to think about other buttons to press and mostly the usage of these other buttons involve at least a bit more lateral thinking than 'health go up' .

Right... because that's the only thing I did in DAO... was spam the heal quickkey. 

No, you didn't. That doesn't mean that what the heal spell did in conjuction with health poultices was give you, for all intents and purposes, an infinite health pool since you'd have lyrium potions up the wazoo. Is it really that hard to see that by limiting the usage of that spell you'll have to think of more ways to mitigate the damage done to your party? Also, I may come across as abrasive but it's starting to irk me that we're on page 9 of this thread and people keep chiming in with strawmen.

Then go away the problem solves itself for you right there, now back to the discussion.

Asai

Aaahahahah, thanks, that's pretty good advice since you seem to have decided to chime in at page ten with the biggest strawman this far. It's blatantly obvious you haven't even properly read the thread. But hey, thanks for your limp-wristed snark

[Koiruoho]

It really is too bad that you think CC "and that other stuff" is boring since the devs seem to have decided that this time around you'd actually need to utilize it. How you use your mana pool is entirely up to you *in the confines of the game mechanics* - Boohoo I think healing and dps and CC is boring I want AOE power word kill why can't I have this.

[Loc'n'lol]

Koiruoho wrote...

I want AOE power word kill why can't I have this.

Ah the "good ol' days"(lulz) of aoe save-or-die spells...

[Beerfish]

Koiruoho wrote...

It really is too bad that you think CC "and that other stuff" is boring since the devs seem to have decided that this time around you'd actually need to utilize it. How you use your mana pool is entirely up to you *in the confines of the game mechanics* - Boohoo I think healing and dps and CC is boring I want AOE power word kill why can't I have this.

Weren't you the one complaining of straw man arguements? 

Hey I'll adapt to whatever game play situation is out there but here is how I see it personally.

1)  I was surprised that so many people think healing was a total spam job in DAO.  I played as a healer in one game, had Wynne in others and never just stood there casting heal after heal after heal.  I cast offensive spells as often if not more than heal but during those boss or tough fights when one fighter has just been mauled and is almost dead and another is hurt I had a choice, healing potion or healing spell.  It was rare for me to think that i won battles just because I cast heal after heal when facing tough opponents.

2) The new game mechanic is so radically different from the old one that it makes ZERO sense to go anywhere near the healing school/section of spells until perhaps after many level ups.  If you look at my  other post above and see just how many offensive spells you get off for every heal it would be crazy to take that school of spells.

3) When talking about tactical and or 'spamming' this healing aura or whatever it is called seems FAR FAR worse in regards to non tactical healing.  You activate the ability and get a nice boost in continued healing.  How is that more tactical than actually looking at your groups health and casting a spell to boost them up?

If they wanted to reduce the power of healing all they had to do is to greatly reduce the ability to have tons of healing potions.  Then the healing mage becomes much more important.  Instead they nerfed the healing spell, nerfed the healing potion with a group cooldown and came up with a healing aura that is as non tactical as you can get.

Saying all of the above.  I will adapt and playing a mage was fun in the demo and the game will probably be very good.  Myself and others just diagree with hitting a mouse with a sledgehammer instead to patching up the mouse hole.