257 réponses à ce sujet

[sassperella]

All this is well and good, but gameplay has been speeded up considerably. I've played the demo a few times now and the heal cooldown sucks, I don't even bother with healing on the mages now. You can heal one character once every minute, what is the point of going healing on a mage?

Ok so it's tactical, which is fine if the ai is as good as I am, but it's not. This hybridisation of much faster action and tactical gameplay makes micromanaging a lot harder than in DA:O. Things happen before you have time to react - to change character. Add to that the fact that my mage wouldn't take a healing potion after trying for several seconds before she died and no I wasn't stunned or disabled, I must have tried at least five or six times to take the damn thing.

I don't mind pausing the game I did it a lot on my last playthrough of DA:O as a healer/controller, but with this faster paced fighting it's very hard to micromanage a team of four and make sure they all jump out the way and keep out of the fire etc.

I just hope casual is relatively easy for those people that can't micromanage at the speed of light which seems to be required now to play the game. There are a lot of people can't beat the ogre in the demo, wait til they hit the hard bosses as I imagine this one is pretty easy.

[Blablabla79]

AustinKain wrote...
...
You can get the right skills in GW and spam healing spells all day long, and dont tell me you cant cause i used to play GW.

Including GvG? And/or Hard Mode with a none gimmick team, one that doesn't exploit some retarded skillsn and stupid AI? How about the WiK content in Hard Mode with a none gimmick team?

[Saphara]

sassperella wrote...

All this is well and good, but gameplay has been speeded up considerably. I've played the demo a few times now and the heal cooldown sucks, I don't even bother with healing on the mages now. You can heal one character once every minute, what is the point of going healing on a mage?

Ok so it's tactical, which is fine if the ai is as good as I am, but it's not. This hybridisation of much faster action and tactical gameplay makes micromanaging a lot harder than in DA:O. Things happen before you have time to react - to change character. Add to that the fact that my mage wouldn't take a healing potion after trying for several seconds before she died and no I wasn't stunned or disabled, I must have tried at least five or six times to take the damn thing.

I don't mind pausing the game I did it a lot on my last playthrough of DA:O as a healer/controller, but with this faster paced fighting it's very hard to micromanage a team of four and make sure they all jump out the way and keep out of the fire etc.

I just hope casual is relatively easy for those people that can't micromanage at the speed of light which seems to be required now to play the game. There are a lot of people can't beat the ogre in the demo, wait til they hit the hard bosses as I imagine this one is pretty easy.

Im sure casual will be easier. Also, the pot issue i think is because if auto attack will hit an enemy, that will take precedence over drinking the healing pot, which is a bug i think.

And yeah, the game will require a LOT more pausing.Will be interesting, as ive never actually done anything above normal, and i felt so proud of myself when i killed the High Dragon and Flemeth on normal

[maselphie]

As a game designer, it's hard for me to look at a game and go "oh poopey! I'm playing it wrong!! I suck!!!" Instead, I look at the game and find out WHY I feel frustrated, and what the developers could have done differently. (Because the game didn't descend from heaven. Humans made it. For me. For money.) Not to say I don't understand how you guys feel when you point the blame finger at the player. I felt upset that players thought Hope was a crappy character in FF13, when in reality, they weren't using him "right." However, as a game designer, I would ask, what could have the developers have done to make battler easier to understand? Why were players frustrated with using him? It was because they were FORCED to use Hope, who is primarily a good mage. And their preference in the game was to have them both attack. Since the game had different branches that you could teach a character (and because the battle system was on autopilot most of the time, they didn't think to switch paradigms) this long part of the game where they could not do anything but have a mage frustrated them.

Now the question is how to receive and solve that problem, without immediately blaming the people who give the makers the money they want and need.

[mintcar]

Everybody seems to name Baldur's Gate as an example for this game to aspire to. Well, I seem to remember being limited to only casting two or three spells in a fight, be they healing spells or other ones, in the beginning levels of that game. You simply couldn't cast healing spells over and over again until much later in the game. Back then they really hated healing, right?

No, I would argue that all games have had limits on magic eccept perhaps Dragon Age: Origins, were magic is completely overpowered. It's not exactly surprising that they try to remedy that in different ways.

[Nemis-Roidsavelt]

I feel for the OP. I like healing...... I know thats kinda wierd, but I really do love to heal. I love spaming heals! It brings me joy:) warm fuzzies

[RPGamer13]

Not being able to cast offensive spells is not a problem: you sill got Melee attacks and Sustains. This also makes it easier for me to make Beth a dedicated healer.

I just hate it when you got more than one person going down quickly and you can only heal one, so someone's going to die.

[BlackIce541]

I'm actually liking the change, I found the nightmare difficulty in Origins easy with a mage constantly healing my party members, healing should be used when you actually need it.

My two cents anyways...

[Leonia]

Blablabla79 wrote...

AustinKain wrote...
...
You can get the right skills in GW and spam healing spells all day long, and dont tell me you cant cause i used to play GW.

Including GvG? And/or Hard Mode with a none gimmick team, one that doesn't exploit some retarded skillsn and stupid AI? How about the WiK content in Hard Mode with a none gimmick team?

Define "gimmick" team. Most of HM is soloable and nobody really plays GvG. What are your thoughts on healing in GW2, hmm?

Anyway, getting off-topic.

'Tis a bit hard to compare a single-player game's mechanics to an MMO after all. I like the idea that combat will require us to "think like a general" a bit more this time around (as much as I hate that phrase, I do enjoy the intent it conveys).

[asaiasai]

Xeyska wrote...

maselphie wrote...
I fully understand that, but that's what I'm saying: the game discourages being a healer. You NEED to buy certain spells. You don't have the CHOICE. If you're going to wrist-slap someone for making a certain build that will make gameplay easier, then don't allow any goddamned customization, because I'm going to invest points into my character that will help the game be easier. That's the point of leveling up. If the game is too easy, it's likely not a spell's fault. And if it is, there are other ways to go about limiting it (mana) than simply giving us NO CHOICE.

This is why I'm hoping they'll release a toolset, so I can edit some of the spells.

Me as well. Just like in ME2 where i had to modify my coalesced.ini in order to drop the heat sink mechanic and make the game playable it may be necessary for me to modify the cool downs on the heal spells to make DA2 playable. Just to be clear when i use playable i use it to mean that the game was enjoyable, ME2 always played fine i just never enjoyed playing it until i changed my coalesced.ini. I can not say for certain if things are going to be as drastic as it seems so far with the healing mechanic but i can say that to limit the ability of the healer build to be a viable and contributing member of the party is starting the game off on the wrong foot.

The problem for me with this is that there is offensive magic and defensive magic, it seems that we are given more viable offensive magic and limited defensive magic which is more of the problem i have. It seems that the only viable use for a mage is pew pew pew and well that is just plain boring. In DAO I made dedicated healers in the way i specced Wynne, and to be insulting to Morrigan i also re-specced her to pure heals in the limited times i used her. Wynne was set up as a dedicated healer which was a viable build and a very important part of my success in DAO. I can not tell you how many times Wynne saved the restart with her contribution to the team effort, such was the value of the contribution that Wynne is my MVP in almost every play through, the only times it was not Wynne was when i specced Morrigan as pure heals, and then she was MVP (most annoying to say that but it was true).

Bad start to dictate to the player just how you are going to let them design thier party, the mechanics and tactics they can use. Again i hope there is some sort of toolset available so that the community can fix the broken aspects of game play, hopefully before the broken or poorly designed elements turn p[layers off entirely.

Asai

[sassperella]

Saphara wrote...


Im sure casual will be easier. Also, the pot issue i think is because if auto attack will hit an enemy, that will take precedence over drinking the healing pot, which is a bug i think.

And yeah, the game will require a LOT more pausing.Will be interesting, as ive never actually done anything above normal, and i felt so proud of myself when i killed the High Dragon and Flemeth on normal

The thing is that my main character wouldn't take the potion and it's on xbox with no autoattack so.....

It's all well and good for people to say "oh you suck at this game... learn to play" etc. but not everyone is a gaming god that wants super mega hardcore mode with no healing and one hand tied behind your back.
I freely admit that my reflexes are not good and I'm not the worlds best player but I get by and I enjoy the game. From my time on the forums there seem to be quite a few players that like the story and like to play on casual to get the experience of the game without the frustration of fighting one boss for hours on end just to progress. The original Dragon age seemed to cater to both of these groups, though it seems that nightmare could have been harder. I just hope that in DA2 casual continues to be casual and allow you to enjoy the game even if you're actionally challenged like  me 

[mintcar]

asaiasai wrote...

Xeyska wrote...

maselphie wrote...
I fully understand that, but that's what I'm saying: the game discourages being a healer. You NEED to buy certain spells. You don't have the CHOICE. If you're going to wrist-slap someone for making a certain build that will make gameplay easier, then don't allow any goddamned customization, because I'm going to invest points into my character that will help the game be easier. That's the point of leveling up. If the game is too easy, it's likely not a spell's fault. And if it is, there are other ways to go about limiting it (mana) than simply giving us NO CHOICE.

This is why I'm hoping they'll release a toolset, so I can edit some of the spells.

Me as well. Just like in ME2 where i had to modify my coalesced.ini in order to drop the heat sink mechanic and make the game playable it may be necessary for me to modify the cool downs on the heal spells to make DA2 playable. Just to be clear when i use playable i use it to mean that the game was enjoyable, ME2 always played fine i just never enjoyed playing it until i changed my coalesced.ini. I can not say for certain if things are going to be as drastic as it seems so far with the healing mechanic but i can say that to limit the ability of the healer build to be a viable and contributing member of the party is starting the game off on the wrong foot.

The problem for me with this is that there is offensive magic and defensive magic, it seems that we are given more viable offensive magic and limited defensive magic which is more of the problem i have. It seems that the only viable use for a mage is pew pew pew and well that is just plain boring. In DAO I made dedicated healers in the way i specced Wynne, and to be insulting to Morrigan i also re-specced her to pure heals in the limited times i used her. Wynne was set up as a dedicated healer which was a viable build and a very important part of my success in DAO. I can not tell you how many times Wynne saved the restart with her contribution to the team effort, such was the value of the contribution that Wynne is my MVP in almost every play through, the only times it was not Wynne was when i specced Morrigan as pure heals, and then she was MVP (most annoying to say that but it was true).

Bad start to dictate to the player just how you are going to let them design thier party, the mechanics and tactics they can use. Again i hope there is some sort of toolset available so that the community can fix the broken aspects of game play, hopefully before the broken or poorly designed elements turn p[layers off entirely.

Asai

You were simply lucky. Having a dedicated healer mage was the only viable tactic in DA:O. I did that at first and you just couldn't fail that way. Then I got a different idea for a character and chose a different, more offensive, party. I liked it better roleplaying-wise so I kept the second character, but had no choice but to lower the difficulty. 

So you see, this problem existed in in DA:O too, it was just reversed.

Modifié par mintcar, 28 février 2011 - 07:24 .

[asaiasai]

Scatcat101 wrote...

I'm actually liking the change, I found the nightmare difficulty in Origins easy with a mage constantly healing my party members, healing should be used when you actually need it.

My two cents anyways...

That sentiment is fine dandy and wonderful but why do you get to decide when i get to heal? You heal when and as often as you feel necessary i just really want the same consideration. Just because i may choose to heal more often than you would does not make it any less viable, just different.

Asai

[maselphie]

Like I said in the last cooldown thread (yes, many people have a problem with this) is that if they already have an upgrade in place to where you can lower the cooldown by investing a number of points, then that makes my fear disappear. Everyone starts off crappy, and maybe this is just the "room to grow" that they need for their upgrades to have an impact. In a demo those "room to grow" moments never hit the audience right, but in the actual game, it will become obvious why it was done.

[Saphara]

sassperella wrote...

Saphara wrote...


Im sure casual will be easier. Also, the pot issue i think is because if auto attack will hit an enemy, that will take precedence over drinking the healing pot, which is a bug i think.

And yeah, the game will require a LOT more pausing.Will be interesting, as ive never actually done anything above normal, and i felt so proud of myself when i killed the High Dragon and Flemeth on normal

The thing is that my main character wouldn't take the potion and it's on xbox with no autoattack so.....

It's all well and good for people to say "oh you suck at this game... learn to play" etc. but not everyone is a gaming god that wants super mega hardcore mode with no healing and one hand tied behind your back.
I freely admit that my reflexes are not good and I'm not the worlds best player but I get by and I enjoy the game. From my time on the forums there seem to be quite a few players that like the story and like to play on casual to get the experience of the game without the frustration of fighting one boss for hours on end just to progress. The original Dragon age seemed to cater to both of these groups, though it seems that nightmare could have been harder. I just hope that in DA2 casual continues to be casual and allow you to enjoy the game even if you're actionally challenged like  me 

Hmm, that may be another bug. Considering the demo was a much older build, i think it may have been fixed.

Yeah, i hear ya. Most of my DAO playthroughs were on casual because i love story and have a short temper  If the demo was fine, or even a bit difficult but passable for you,  im pretty sure casual will be just as fine as it was in DAO, just with no multi heals.

Although, dragons and the dreaded "Rock Wraith" of Chris legend kinda strikes fear into my heart

[sassperella]

asaiasai wrote...

Scatcat101 wrote...

I'm actually liking the change, I found the nightmare difficulty in Origins easy with a mage constantly healing my party members, healing should be used when you actually need it.

My two cents anyways...

That sentiment is fine dandy and wonderful but why do you get to decide when i get to heal? You heal when and as often as you feel necessary i just really want the same consideration. Just because i may choose to heal more often than you would does not make it any less viable, just different.

Asai

I agree, not all players are equal in skill and taste when it comes to games. Some like playing dedicated healers, it can be fun keeping your team alive others like the challenge of getting through the hardest level possible while riding a unicycle and singing daisy bell. Neutering healing mages is taking away an aspect of the game a lot enjoyed just for the sake of "mr. Hardcore." Surely it's possible to appeal to both camps without punishing those that want a fun playthrough or punishing those that want a challenging experience. 

Regardless of the difficulty of casual, which may or may not be as easy as DA:O casual, by making such a huge cooldown on heal takes a complete playstyle out of the game, a style a lot of people enjoyed.

[asaiasai]

mintcar wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Xeyska wrote...

maselphie wrote...
I fully understand that, but that's what I'm saying: the game discourages being a healer. You NEED to buy certain spells. You don't have the CHOICE. If you're going to wrist-slap someone for making a certain build that will make gameplay easier, then don't allow any goddamned customization, because I'm going to invest points into my character that will help the game be easier. That's the point of leveling up. If the game is too easy, it's likely not a spell's fault. And if it is, there are other ways to go about limiting it (mana) than simply giving us NO CHOICE.

This is why I'm hoping they'll release a toolset, so I can edit some of the spells.

Me as well. Just like in ME2 where i had to modify my coalesced.ini in order to drop the heat sink mechanic and make the game playable it may be necessary for me to modify the cool downs on the heal spells to make DA2 playable. Just to be clear when i use playable i use it to mean that the game was enjoyable, ME2 always played fine i just never enjoyed playing it until i changed my coalesced.ini. I can not say for certain if things are going to be as drastic as it seems so far with the healing mechanic but i can say that to limit the ability of the healer build to be a viable and contributing member of the party is starting the game off on the wrong foot.

The problem for me with this is that there is offensive magic and defensive magic, it seems that we are given more viable offensive magic and limited defensive magic which is more of the problem i have. It seems that the only viable use for a mage is pew pew pew and well that is just plain boring. In DAO I made dedicated healers in the way i specced Wynne, and to be insulting to Morrigan i also re-specced her to pure heals in the limited times i used her. Wynne was set up as a dedicated healer which was a viable build and a very important part of my success in DAO. I can not tell you how many times Wynne saved the restart with her contribution to the team effort, such was the value of the contribution that Wynne is my MVP in almost every play through, the only times it was not Wynne was when i specced Morrigan as pure heals, and then she was MVP (most annoying to say that but it was true).

Bad start to dictate to the player just how you are going to let them design thier party, the mechanics and tactics they can use. Again i hope there is some sort of toolset available so that the community can fix the broken aspects of game play, hopefully before the broken or poorly designed elements turn p[layers off entirely.

Asai

You were simply lucky. Having a dedicated healer mage was the only viable tactic in DA:O. I did that at first and you just couldn't fail that way. Then I got a different idea for a character and chose a different, more offensive, party. I fould it a lot more interesting roleplaying-wise, but had no choice but to lower the difficulty. 

So you see, this problem existed in in DA:O too, it was just reversed.

I did not consider it a problem i considered it a viable tactic, with a trade off in that i had less DPS at my disposal. I chose to use anti-DPS (heals) as opposed to DPS to fight. As i said in either case what difference does it make how the mage uses the mana pool, pew pew pew or start over, to limit the options for player choice is the issue. Some want to charge in and blow doors off i always preffered slow and steady, now with the limited heal mechanic, there IS ONLY ONE WAY TO PLAY, that is the problem. Why bring a mage along at all now, i can do just as much DPS with a rogue or warrior with out the liability a bathrobe wearing squishey brings. Limiting the ability of mages to heal limits the functionability of the mage class, being as that is the case why bother with a squishey?

Asai 

[asaiasai]

maselphie wrote...

Like I said in the last cooldown thread (yes, many people have a problem with this) is that if they already have an upgrade in place to where you can lower the cooldown by investing a number of points, then that makes my fear disappear. Everyone starts off crappy, and maybe this is just the "room to grow" that they need for their upgrades to have an impact. In a demo those "room to grow" moments never hit the audience right, but in the actual game, it will become obvious why it was done.

I hope your right because if not Bioware just shot any use for the mage class right in the ass. Why bother with them at all now because they bring nothing to the table now except liabilities as aggro generating, non healing, bathrobe wearing squishies soon to be stomped into a puddle. Pointless.

Asai 

[Vaeliorin]

mintcar wrote...
You were simply lucky. Having a dedicated healer mage was the only viable tactic in DA:O.

Which explains all those people who soloed Nightmare with a warrior or rogue.

Anyway, like I said before, I'd rather have a small heal on a short cooldown than a big heal on a long cooldown, particularly given that there's only 1 heal unless you take 2 mages, make Hawke a mage (as I understand it, party members don't get specializations, so no spirit healer Bethany/Merrill/Anders), or one of the NPC mages has healing as part of their character-specific tree (this seems likely for Anders, I think.)

It's just a matter of flexibility.  Having one large heal on a long cooldown doesn't give you the same tactical flexibility as a smaller heal...it basically forces you into trying to make one party member take all the damage (yes, I realize that's the point of a tank, but having your tank take all the aggro isn't always the best choice), and then healing that party member whenever they get to 50% health or so.  With a more flexible healing spell, it would be possible to have an offtank setup if you wanted, or even to go tankless and go for a "kill them before they kill you" approach, where everyone handles whoever attacks them individually.

*shrug* I'm sure it will work out fine in the end, it's just a bit frustrating to feel pigeon-holed into having to play one or two particular ways (hardcore tank or tons of CC seem the only options at this point.)

[AlanC9]

mintcar wrote...

You were simply lucky. Having a dedicated healer mage was the only viable tactic in DA:O. I did that at first and you just couldn't fail that way. Then I got a different idea for a character and chose a different, more offensive, party. I liked it better roleplaying-wise so I kept the second character, but had no choice but to lower the difficulty. 

So you see, this problem existed in in DA:O too, it was just reversed.

I don't check you on this. I got through DAO on Nightmare without a dedicated healer. You do have to prioritize CC a bit, but it isn't that hard.

[0rz0]

Oh come on it's 10s cooldown, you can just pop it up, heal and turn it off. Like you did for blood wound...

[asaiasai]

Vaeliorin wrote...

mintcar wrote...
You were simply lucky. Having a dedicated healer mage was the only viable tactic in DA:O.

Which explains all those people who soloed Nightmare with a warrior or rogue.

Anyway, like I said before, I'd rather have a small heal on a short cooldown than a big heal on a long cooldown, particularly given that there's only 1 heal unless you take 2 mages, make Hawke a mage (as I understand it, party members don't get specializations, so no spirit healer Bethany/Merrill/Anders), or one of the NPC mages has healing as part of their character-specific tree (this seems likely for Anders, I think.)

It's just a matter of flexibility.  Having one large heal on a long cooldown doesn't give you the same tactical flexibility as a smaller heal...it basically forces you into trying to make one party member take all the damage (yes, I realize that's the point of a tank, but having your tank take all the aggro isn't always the best choice), and then healing that party member whenever they get to 50% health or so.  With a more flexible healing spell, it would be possible to have an offtank setup if you wanted, or even to go tankless and go for a "kill them before they kill you" approach, where everyone handles whoever attacks them individually.

*shrug* I'm sure it will work out fine in the end, it's just a bit frustrating to feel pigeon-holed into having to play one or two particular ways (hardcore tank or tons of CC seem the only options at this point.)

If the tactics worked flawlessly that is a viable tactic to have 2 tanks toss aggro back and forth as each needed to heal or as thier defensive cooldowns time out, but unfortunately the tactics while they work for some aspects in this case it does not work flawlessly. In order for this to work the player would have to micro manage both tanks. Healing makes it so that the player if they choose can micromanage both or just say screw it and heal the tank back up again. In either case the game mechanic seems to be tank, DPS DPS DPS which is just pigeon holeing the player in the other direction, as opposed to tank DPS DPS heals.

Asai

[AngryFrozenWater]

I would not be surprised if there was only one type of health potion to fit the quick healing slot.