257 réponses à ce sujet

[wowpwnslol]

The potion nerf was needed.

[AngryFrozenWater]

@Adhin: Like you said the aura is not free. It decreases the mana pool. So, switching back and forth is rather expensive. Which is not handy, unless you want to keep the mage in that state longer. That way you cannot use the mage for offensive purposes, though.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 28 février 2011 - 10:03 .

[HTTP 404]

I like the change. no spamming heal and potions. you should be able to win battle without too much healing this time around.

[Seagloom]

I tried various mage builds in Origins. Healing was one of my favorites. However, the changes here disappoint me. It is not because the longer cooldown times make it less useful. No--it is because these changes make playing a healer *boring*. Healing was the most active ability in a support mage's arsenal. There was almost always a need to heal a party member. Now playing a support mage is down to toggling on a bunch of sustainable effects, casting the odd glyph, and autoattack spamming while waiting for heal to cool down.

That is very passive in comparison to Origins. Yes, I can take an offensive spell or two and shut down healing aura to cast, but it comes at the cost of not having all my character's abilities available. If my character's primary role is to help the party, I do not like the idea that her best abilities to act in that capacity might be unavailable at a crucial moment--all because I decided to do something active out of boredom.

That is what it comes down to for me. I like to play a game; not watch it. I will likely still max out the creation tree, as I like playing the buff role, but chances are I will kick spirit healer to the curb and pick up blood mage instead. If BioWare's goal is to make party tactics more important to survival than healing, then there is little point to spirit healer anyway. I rather focus on creation and arcane's sustains and throw everything else into destructive magic. At least that way I will feel like my character is doing something meaningful more than once or twice every minute.

Modifié par Seagloom, 28 février 2011 - 10:11 .

[Adhin]

True Angry, to an extent. It'll section off 20% or 30% of max mana. It wont add fatigue at least. But yeah it'll section it off which is another cost to it all for sure. I still think its worth it though. Keep in mind all mana regeneration (all regeneration, weather used instantly for heal/potion or over time) is % based though. Mage has about 1% I think base (would be less more like .5%), the passive in 3 of the trees at the end that gives +10 comes out to 0.25% per second (or 1 per 4).

Erm anyways my point of that is due to how mana regeneration works (based off total max mana, regardless of sustained abilities so it doesn't change cause you turn something on). It can more or less compensate for a single, 20 mana spell. That being, losing 20% of your max mana to swap between these things wont be that big of an issue overall. On top of all of that, you wont be needing it at the beginning of a fight. you can dump that mana into other stuff initially and turn it on halfway through, when you've already depleted your mana a bit making its cost inconsequential.

[Blackened25]

I like this change as well, It makes having a good tank and being aware of what's happening around you that much more important. It should be very possible to prevent yourself from getting swarmed with the use of aoe's and taunting, and if things get too hot you can always move out of the way and kite. It's not good news for people who like playing the healing support type mage though i suppose.

[PinkShoes]

its annoying but nothing i couldnt handle and i found myself being way more tatical. I wish they would drop the cool downs just a little but im not gunna cry about it.

[borelocin]

asaiasai wrote...
I just can not see how running around in circles in a fight is supposed to be more fun than say sticky sticky stabby stabby on a target with a dedicated healer making sure to keep the character topped off. It did not seem that the fight mechanics really changed in any fundamantal way, just an attempt to artificially create difficulty by limiting the players choice of tactics. Now i have to run around in circles to mitigate damage, and that is going to be plain ass boring, sure it might be neat the first few times, but after using that tactic for the 7th fight in a row how is that really fundamentally any different over all than healing through the damage with a dedicated healer for the 7th fight in a row? It is not.
 
Is the limit to heals a way to artificially pump up the difficulty by limiting the player's responses, because of poor encounter design? With what i saw in the demo quite possibly. Alot of the fights involved overwhelming numbers, limited character traits, and seemed repetitive. So instead of spamming heals i spammed fireballs and the frost spell, wooooo i am so glad that spamming spells was removed from the game as some here seem to think.

Again the player is just spamming a different spell, so Bioware and some hardcore players have decided that spamming heals is bad BUT spamming fireball is not, what is the logic to this decision again? How does this make the game anymore challanging? Spam is bad, really? Or is only spamming heals bad? I just do not get why no one here has offered any viable explination for why spamming heals is bad, but spamming fireballs is not, mana is mana how the player chooses to use it should be up to the player. The player is still making tradeoffs, less DPS for the ability to heal or less heals for the ability to bring more DPS, why is one tactic preffered over the other?
 
Asai

Have to agree with you here Asai - instead of spamming heals you have your tank spam Taunt while kiting, then spam offensive spells.

First mod I will be looking for is a cooldown shortener for heals.

Modifié par borelocin, 28 février 2011 - 10:21 .

[maselphie]

The problem is, why include healers and a Creation skill tree if healing is to be obsolete?

[Adhin]

It's not obsolete, I used it in the demo a few times. It's just another option that's more tactical instead of being 'required'. DAO it was more of a (in general) required thing, you had to have it and you had to use it constantly. Generally via Poultices but still, there was a lot of heal-spam between the 2. Which is, ultimately, less of a tactical thing and was more in line with auto-attack, something you just do.

[Aldandil]

maselphie wrote...

The problem is, why include healers and a Creation skill tree if healing is to be obsolete?

You have no reason whatsover to believe that healing is obsolete just because it's hard to base your tactics on constant heals. In DA:O, it was possible to beat the game on any difficulty without any heals at all. Was healing obsolete? Certainly not. It made it easier to beat the game, though. Now we're going to have to be a little bit more careful with how we approach combat and make sure we manage aggro and crowd control, though.

It's fun to see how people who have argued that one, preferrably two, dedicated healers were necessary to play DA:O also claims that the new limitations on heals reduces the freedom to build your party the way you like. The way I see it, you can have a dedicated healer with the Spirit healer specc, or a crisis healer who buffs the party who has invested in the creation tree, and spends the rest of the time CC-ing or DPS-ing.

[Adhin]

Exactly Aldandil, part of the problem with Healers in RPG's if you ask me. It can be hard to balance something around them not being required, but still make them useful. I think what they've done, at least at this point seems like it should do that pretty well. Granted I can't be sure till I actually play it in full from retail but it at least looks promising.

And yeah DAO didn't need healing if you where careful enough but I'm not the kinda person who traps and uses extra potions/poisons and stuff, or did any kind of major Mage spam I usually only had 1 mage. Either way, yay for more freedom.

[sassperella]

borelocin wrote...
Have to agree with you here Asai - instead of spamming heals you have your tank spam Taunt while kiting, then spam offensive spells.
.

well unless there's a tactic to spam taunt and kite for the tank, this strategy means you'll be playing the tank 90% of the time which a lot of people don't want to do. There are three classes to chose from in the game and taunt spam and kite is only  available to one. 

[Koiruoho]

Is there a particular reason why you couldn't use the various crowd control skills and spells that have been added to your arsenal and which you can use much more frequently than before?

[LordPaul256]

Seems like too many people have been weaned off of WoW and the dedicated healer ideology.

Try some D&D, the progenitors of the genre. There is no 'healer' in that game, but an off-tank with excellent defensive abilities. Simply put, if you're trying to heal as much as the damage you're taking, you're going to lose. It's not built that way. The idea is to set yourself up to not take damage, and use the heals after battle.

Obviously, the healing after battle won't work with Dragon Age, but I'm glad they're going away from the "healing will let me play like a suicidal idiot" style of play for something where you have to actively think and figure out positioning, tactics, etc.

That said... I don't imagine anyone playing on normal will have a hard time with this game as is, as they've said normal will be slightly easier than normal on Origins.

[Vaeliorin]

Adhin wrote...
And if they kept the same base cooldown as everything else, 20 seconds, they would of had to lower the %heal. I prefer it being a higher % and just having a longer cooldown. I want my heals MEANING something instead of being a massive mana drain and my mage having to do nothing else but spam the damn things.

This is actually my issue with it.  I'd rather have a heal doing less, but available more often.  If the retail version has 40%/80% heal on a 40 second cooldown, I'd rather have 10%/20% on a 10 second cooldown.  It's the same amount of healing, but I'm able to spread it around if it's necessary, rather than having it all go to one person.

I just dislike nuke healing.  I much prefer consistent, smaller heals.  If I were to play a healer in WoW (I wouldn't, because I don't like playing healers in MMOs...at least not in groups) I'd rather be a druid, with constant HoT's running than anything else.

My only hope is that one of the companions has more heals in their personal tree (or that companions get specializations) so that I don't feel obligated to take two mages, or play a mage and take spirit healer.

[Gerudan]

And Merrill doesn't have the creation tree, which forces you to take Anders with you and let her at home, if your Hawke is a mage and you doesn't want him to become a healer. Or you would have to play with three mages and without rogue.

[Adhin]

Merrill may not have the creation tree. To my understanding we haven't gotten any confirmation on that, unless you got a quote of a dev confirming that recently? Even if she doesn't, I'll be taking her along as my only mage. I plan to win by brute force, Healing potions will work when I need it.

[Gerudan]

You can unlock her with the demo, as it would seem. Her pariah tree substitutes the creation tree (although all of the spells are locked).

[Seagloom]

LordPaul256 wrote...

Seems like too many people have been weaned off of WoW and the dedicated healer ideology.

Try some D&D, the progenitors of the genre. There is no 'healer' in that game, but an off-tank with excellent defensive abilities. Simply put, if you're trying to heal as much as the damage you're taking, you're going to lose. It's not built that way. The idea is to set yourself up to not take damage, and use the heals after battle.

Obviously, the healing after battle won't work with Dragon Age, but I'm glad they're going away from the "healing will let me play like a suicidal idiot" style of play for something where you have to actively think and figure out positioning, tactics, etc.

Actually, 3e had a dedicated healing class in the Miniatures Handbook. It was named, aptly enough, healer. Not that in-combat healing was a viable choice in 3e and rarely in 2e. I agree it made more sense to heal after battle. Debuffing and offense was a better use of magic during a fight. That was in spite of designer intentions, however. WotC thought healing was so integral to the game, that they made clerics and druids mortal goddesses to appeal to players who normally disdain that role. Since that turned into a game balance fiasco, they took another route with 4e by tying several healing effects into offensive abilities; and giving every class a personal healing power.

I prefer BioWare did not follow TSR or WotC's lead. Neither company figured out how to make healing fun or completely unnecessary. The only thing BioWare probably accomplished here is making buffs trump healing. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and all that. So instead of healing constantly every battle, we can stack enhancements until the entire party is untouchable and kills enemies by sneezing on them. Somehow that does not strike me as more challenging, but it *is* closer to D&D.

Modifié par Seagloom, 28 février 2011 - 12:18 .

[Bobad]

I would have preferred a universal cooldown on all potions of the same duration, but specific to each character, making it across the party doesn't make sense with regard to roleplaying in my opinion, unless they are passing a bottle around or something.

[Wulfram]

The potion change is good. The mage healing cooldown I'm not so sure about - it needs to be good enough to be worth taking over other spells.

[Adhin]

It's practically a full heal! Spirit Healers same way but group wide. How is that not worth taking? I'm not sure if you folks noticed but the CC this time all have very short durations. Glyph of Paralyze is 4 seconds, 6 upgraded. That's not exactly ground breakingly powerful compared to its implementation in DAO. The Glyph combo was 20 seconds for ****s sake. Granted you can now hit 3-4 with the base Glyph now, Repulsion has also been heavily limited.

Everything has been, ultimately. But healing your tank to full for cheap is a solid ability, Spirit Healer or no. And its easy to get with out investing a ton into creation. The only real concern I've seen on here that seems to be based in any amount of factual information is the personal preference for wanting to play a healer who is doing there thing constantly so stave off boredom. That I can empathize with, its not something I like doing but I can see where your coming from at least.

And going from that view I agree it would be nice if Spirit Healer (the specialization for it) was a bit more active then it currently is. I still think its all pretty balanced but from a gameplay point of 'thats what I want to do' - I can see it being a tad on the boring slow side. That said we only know of 2 of the abilities (and not in great detail), im kinda curious what the other 3 do. I'm sure one of them is basically life ward, but not sure on the last one. For all we know (doubtful) that could be your more used ability that makes it more interesting. Here's hoping.

Modifié par Adhin, 28 février 2011 - 12:29 .

[magicwins]

BLOOD! DEATH! RAAAGH!

HEALING IS FOR SISSIES!

[Wulfram]

Adhin wrote...

It's practically a full heal! Spirit Healers same way but group wide. How is that not worth taking? I

It's cooldown makes it effectively only one use per battle, that's the problem.  I can't really comment on spirit healers, but the ogre battle seemed a fair bit tougher when I took Heal compared to when I took Heroic Aura or Winter's Grasp.