257 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Vaeliorin wrote...
Anyway, like I said before, I'd rather have a small heal on a short cooldown than a big heal on a long cooldown, particularly given that there's only 1 heal unless you take 2 mages, make Hawke a mage (as I understand it, party members don't get specializations, so no spirit healer Bethany/Merrill/Anders), or one of the NPC mages has healing as part of their character-specific tree (this seems likely for Anders, I think.)

I prefer bigger cooldowns and bigger heals, just because it's easier to manage. I don't use tactics, so having lots of tiny heals essentially means a combinatorially explosive management nightmare.

It's just a matter of flexibility.  Having one large heal on a long cooldown doesn't give you the same tactical flexibility as a smaller heal...it basically forces you into trying to make one party member take all the damage (yes, I realize that's the point of a tank, but having your tank take all the aggro isn't always the best choice), and then healing that party member whenever they get to 50% health or so.  With a more flexible healing spell, it would be possible to have an offtank setup if you wanted, or even to go tankless and go for a "kill them before they kill you" approach, where everyone handles whoever attacks them individually.

Stuns and CC can be as effective as tanking. Too many abilities were locked in DA2 to comment, but I think it may be possible to have a viable 2 mage 2 rogue party, especially with the way DEX/CUN seem to naturally feed into each other.

*shrug* I'm sure it will work out fine in the end, it's just a bit frustrating to feel pigeon-holed into having to play one or two particular ways (hardcore tank or tons of CC seem the only options at this point.)

Sustained single character DPS might also work. We need more access to other characters to create unblanced parties like 3 rogues/1 mage to really see.

[SnowHeart1]

FieryDove wrote...

At any rate I wonder if in the first few patches things will change like in dao. We should take bets.

I'd be happy with a shorter cooldown with less healing power, but for a bet? I'd bet it doesn't change. It's not an MMO so I think it's less likely to get power tweaks.

[Hawke92]

Don't know about Bioware but i hate them

[FieryDove]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

At any rate I wonder if in the first few patches things will change like in dao. We should take bets.

I'd be happy with a shorter cooldown with less healing power, but for a bet? I'd bet it doesn't change. It's not an MMO so I think it's less likely to get power tweaks.

Dao wasn't an mmo and the first 2 patches made easy/normal easier...yes?

[Beerfish]

LadyBri wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

LadyBri wrote...

If you need to spam heal and potions to survive then something is wrong.

In a sense, some of us are actually saying exactly the opposite. We're saying it's EASIER without heal, not with it. What does that say about the utility of the spell?

Edit:  See e.g., Beerfish's last post.

Exactly - my point is that healing and the "heal" spell should not be the only ability/use of a healer class.  A healer mage has so many other abilities/buffs that are even more useful than just heal.  In addition, one should set tactics and abilities to party members so they are not getting shredded during a fight, and a big part of this includes choosing the optimal party for the specific situation and using tactics and sometimes shuffling through characters to make sure everyone is doing what they should be doing.  Again, if one is counting down the seconds to heal/potions then one is definitely missing something.

In DAO I found the classic healer (ie Wynne) to be perfectly balanced.  I used heals, I used many offensive weapons.  I never stood around just healing, healing, healing. 

Now I probably will have not 'healer' in the party.  Why take the healing path when I can increase the damage of my flame or frost spells by 20%, spells that I can pump out very quickly?  The problem if anything in DAO may have been the ease of getting healing potions or poultices.

[HyperLimited]

Shared healing potion cooldown? I have not encountered this in the demo, and quite frankly the idea is idiotic... 

[AlanC9]

HyperLimited wrote...

Shared healing potion cooldown? I have not encountered this in the demo, and quite frankly the idea is idiotic... 

More idiotic than an unshared cooldown?

[LexXxich]

The problem is not with just healing. It's with support mages in general. Abilities that protect, heal or boost allies are small in number, long in cooldown, and/or quite limited in effectiveness.
Let's take a look at them.
1. Heal - Greater Heal. +80% health every 60 sec for 2 points. A panic button for your tank, though maybe just killing/controlling those beating her would be more effective. You cast it rarely.
2. Heroic Aura - Valiant Aura. +10 Attack (not needed against normal enemies), +8% Defence, +10% Damage, +10% Crit Chance (useful); all for 3 points and 20% reserved mana. Sustainable.
3. Haste - Greater Haste. +50 Attack speed (would it mean +50% DPS?), lasts for 20 sec every 60 sec. Requires 5 points to get. Supposedly very useful.
4. Elemental weapons - 10% reserved mana. Sustainable again. Gives, AFAIK, 10% of mage's staff damage to everyone in the party as elemental bonus, which amounted to +4 raw damage at Lvl.6. Sustainable
5. Arcane Shield/Wall - Elemental Shield. +5% Defence, +5% Elemental resistance for 20% of mana and 5 points. Sustainable.
6. Barrier - Arcane Fortress. +100% Damage Resist (bubble) for 6 seconds every 45 seconds. Requires 5 points to get.
7. Dispel - Transmutation. +20% health to party members affected by hostile spells. Size 5m, cooldown 15 sec Not much of a buff. Situationally useful.
8. Healing Aura (unknown upgrades). +50% health regen. I highly doubt it gives +50% health each tick. Size 6m, Cost 30% of mana, Sustainable, can't cast offensive spells (might include glyphs, probably not).
9. Group heal. +30% health for every party member every 40sec. Requires Healing Aura running.
10. Revival. Specifics unknown, but if Origins is of any indication it'll have a minimum of 60+ sec cooldown.

Taking all of them will surely exhaust all level-up points. And it'll leave you with 6 activated spells, minimum cooldown 15 sec, max 60 sec, average 44 sec, and 4 sustainables, eating up to 80% of your mana, or 50% without Healing Aura.
So, overall, you will buff your party for roughly 10% across the board in exchange for half of your mana. Other half of your mana will see action very rarely, in emergencies. Any mistake will be a very costly one. Most of the time you'll just sit back and auto-attack. You won't even be a healbot, just a (mostly)passive bonus dispenser.

[javierdmr1982]

the cooldown 60s is very bad i prefer spend my skillpoints in the elemental skills

[aries1001]

I remember when Gaider? first talked about Dragon Age (as it then was know as) way back on 2004-2005, he talked about no healing potions, no magical healing, healing would mean that you had to bandage your wounds or go back to camp. And that mages would only have a small amount of magick used for healing; it sound like they went back to this concept, this idea, somewhat.

I, too, was somewhat surprised to learn about the healing cooldown in DA2 when playing the demo, but I learned how to play the game with this -ehm- spell and its cooldown....

[SnowHeart1]

LexXxich wrote...

The problem is not with just healing. It's with support mages in general. Abilities that protect, heal or boost allies are small in number, long in cooldown, and/or quite limited in effectiveness.

*snip* 

So, overall, you will buff your party for roughly 10% across the board in exchange for half of your mana. Other half of your mana will see action very rarely, in emergencies. Any mistake will be a very costly one. Most of the time you'll just sit back and auto-attack. You won't even be a healbot, just a (mostly)passive bonus dispenser.

If your analysis is correct (and it seems like it is to me), it just goes to show one of the drawbacks of the "push a button and something awesome happens" approach. It seems (to me) DA2 is much more oriented towards attacking/killing/damaging rather than positioning and tactics. Now, one approach would be to have two mages in your party (which is actually what I'm going to do). The current plan is to have Anders and my PC each have a couple of sustained party-wide buffs and then split up attacking and healing, while a tank draws aggro and an archer keeps folks off the mages. But I have no idea if that's going to work given how squishy mages tend to be.

[Bigdoser]

I laugh at those who think you need a dedicated healer to be viable in DAO. Crowd control and dps is 10x better than having a tank + a dedicated healer.

[SnowHeart1]

Bigdoser wrote...

I laugh at those who think you need a dedicated healer to be viable in DAO. Crowd control and dps is 10x better than having a tank + a dedicated healer.

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 28 février 2011 - 09:32 .

[AlanC9]

LexXxich wrote...
Taking all of them will surely exhaust all level-up points. And it'll leave you with 6 activated spells, minimum cooldown 15 sec, max 60 sec, average 44 sec, and 4 sustainables, eating up to 80% of your mana, or 50% without Healing Aura.
So, overall, you will buff your party for roughly 10% across the board in exchange for half of your mana. Other half of your mana will see action very rarely, in emergencies. Any mistake will be a very costly one. Most of the time you'll just sit back and auto-attack. You won't even be a healbot, just a (mostly)passive bonus dispenser.

So.... why would you take all of them?

[Invalidcode]

With that many CC and pretty short CD on those, a pure healer would just stand there and auto attack since the party isn't really taking much damage in the first place.

[Siven80]

Bigdoser wrote...

I laugh at those who think you need a dedicated healer to be viable in DAO. Crowd control and dps is 10x better than having a tank + a dedicated healer.

^^

[In Exile]

Bigdoser wrote...

I laugh at those who think you need a dedicated healer to be viable in DAO. Crowd control and dps is 10x better than having a tank + a dedicated healer.

2 Mages as CC & DPS is absolutely brutal unholy murder in DA:O. If you spec both with group heal you're effectively unkillable.

[lobi]

In origins I would leave Wynn at the tower or turn her into blood mage for the lol's. Healing is a waste of a spell slot.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

Maybe the fact is that healing itself makes the game into a battle of attrition. By healing your allies to try and cancel the damage already done to your allies you are reactionary. You are not trying to help your allies kill the threat directly but instead trying to help your allies not die. Because less damage is being caused then the enemies will die more slowly. Damagers on the other hand have a more direct role because they shorten battles due to more damage output. Whether or not the battle ends in your favor is another story. By making healing more difficult ie the longer cooldowns and the sustained abilitie bioware is making you actually try and use all the variables in combat. I see that most people are complaining that they cant only heal and ignore aspects of combat that are not appealing to them. And if bioware did make healing that way again the healing would be overpowered.

[Koiruoho]

In Exile wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

I laugh
at those who think you need a dedicated healer to be viable in DAO.
Crowd control and dps is 10x better than having a tank + a dedicated
healer.

2 Mages as CC & DPS is absolutely brutal
unholy murder in DA:O. If you spec both with group heal you're
effectively unkillable.

Yeah, mages already have all the CC and AOE. I haven't gotten into figuring out dps output between mages and rogues but suffice to say that outside of boss fights the healing is just icing on the cake. Also doesn't seem to me that people are even mostly talking about viability, just that they can't be arsed to either control other party members or figure out rudimentary tactics, which is made ridiculously easy by having a dedicated healer.

Modifié par Koiruoho, 28 février 2011 - 09:48 .

[Joy Divison]

The only way less healing works is if the bad guys do a lot less damage. I'm not convinced this is necessarily a good thing. Did the "boss" Hayder actually do anything? I played the demo 10 times and in every fight he was just a bag of hit points. The only two enemies that caused a noticable decrease in my health bar was the emissary and the Ogre.

I was not a fan of spamming health potions either, but I'd prefer to have a healing mechanic (preferably through player abilities) to have enemies I actually fear might damage me.

[GunClubGirl]

Based on the heal and health potion cooldowns on the demo, I assume I will not only have to have one healer in my party but TWO, whether I would have wanted to have 2 mages or not this change seems to have made it mandatory. Luckily, I like two of the mages on the game.

[Elvoria]

If only it could be like Diablo, swing,drink,swing,drink,swing,drink oh boy I killed the boss ya me.

[GunClubGirl]

Since when is casting a healing spell "not tactical". It's just as tactical as any other battle action.

[LexXxich]

AlanC9 wrote...

LexXxich wrote...
Taking all of them will surely exhaust all level-up points. And it'll leave you with 6 activated spells, minimum cooldown 15 sec, max 60 sec, average 44 sec, and 4 sustainables, eating up to 80% of your mana, or 50% without Healing Aura.
So, overall, you will buff your party for roughly 10% across the board in exchange for half of your mana. Other half of your mana will see action very rarely, in emergencies. Any mistake will be a very costly one. Most of the time you'll just sit back and auto-attack. You won't even be a healbot, just a (mostly)passive bonus dispenser.

So.... why would you take all of them?

To be a mage, specialising in party buffing, healing and protecting. A "white mage", if your wish.
And it seems that playing as such is not only suboptimal, but also quite boring. Maybe unknown upgrades/passives in Spirit Healer tree will make effectiveness of such build skyrocket, but I wouldn't seriously hope for that.