257 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Even if upgrades made it more effective, that wouldn't change the boring part.

[Koiruoho]

GunClubGirl wrote...

Since when is casting a healing spell "not tactical". It's just as tactical as any other battle action.

It's not about whether an action like casting a spell or using a skill is tactical, it's about what that particular button does and what sort of tactics that effect opens up for you. In the case of the heal spell, it enables you the tactic of pressing that button a hundred times in a row, or better yet, having the AI cast it a hundred times in a row. Conversely limiting the use of this skill forces you to think about other buttons to press and mostly the usage of these other buttons involve at least a bit more lateral thinking than 'health go up' .

[jheise4321]

What is considered an offensive spell? Haste? Glyph of Repulsion and Paralysis? Heroic Aura?

[SnowHeart1]

GunClubGirl wrote...

Since when is casting a healing spell "not tactical". It's just as tactical as any other battle action.

Apparently not. The forumites have spoken, and woe betide those who heal as well as harm, for to heal is to suxors while to harm is to pwn. 

Koiruoho wrote...

It's not about whether an action like casting a spell or using a skill is tactical, it's about what that particular button does and what sort of tactics that effect opens up for you. In the case of the heal spell, it enables you the tactic of pressing that button a hundred times in a row, or better yet, having the AI cast it a hundred times in a row. Conversely limiting the use of this skill forces you to think about other buttons to press and mostly the usage of these other buttons involve at least a bit more lateral thinking than 'health go up' .

Right... because that's the only thing I did in DAO... was spam the heal quickkey. 

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 28 février 2011 - 10:45 .

[Koiruoho]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

GunClubGirl wrote...

Since when is casting a healing spell "not tactical". It's just as tactical as any other battle action.

Apparently not. The forumites have spoken, and woe betide those who heal as well as harm, for to heal is to suxors while to harm is to pwn. 

Koiruoho wrote...

It's not about whether an action like casting a spell or using a skill is tactical, it's about what that particular button does and what sort of tactics that effect opens up for you. In the case of the heal spell, it enables you the tactic of pressing that button a hundred times in a row, or better yet, having the AI cast it a hundred times in a row. Conversely limiting the use of this skill forces you to think about other buttons to press and mostly the usage of these other buttons involve at least a bit more lateral thinking than 'health go up' .

Right... because that's the only thing I did in DAO... was spam the heal quickkey. 

No, you didn't. That doesn't mean that what the heal spell did in conjuction with health poultices was give you, for all intents and purposes, an infinite health pool since you'd have lyrium potions up the wazoo. Is it really that hard to see that by limiting the usage of that spell you'll have to think of more ways to mitigate the damage done to your party? Also, I may come across as abrasive but it's starting to irk me that we're on page 9 of this thread and people keep chiming in with strawmen.

Modifié par Koiruoho, 28 février 2011 - 10:53 .

[daywalker03]

Koiruoho wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

GunClubGirl wrote...

Since when is casting a healing spell "not tactical". It's just as tactical as any other battle action.

Apparently not. The forumites have spoken, and woe betide those who heal as well as harm, for to heal is to suxors while to harm is to pwn. 

Koiruoho wrote...

It's not about whether an action like casting a spell or using a skill is tactical, it's about what that particular button does and what sort of tactics that effect opens up for you. In the case of the heal spell, it enables you the tactic of pressing that button a hundred times in a row, or better yet, having the AI cast it a hundred times in a row. Conversely limiting the use of this skill forces you to think about other buttons to press and mostly the usage of these other buttons involve at least a bit more lateral thinking than 'health go up' .

Right... because that's the only thing I did in DAO... was spam the heal quickkey. 

No, you didn't. That doesn't mean that what the heal spell did in conjuction with health poultices was give you, for all intents and purposes, an infinite health pool since you'd have lyrium potions up the wazoo. Is it really that hard to see that by limiting the usage of that spell you'll have to think of more ways to mitigate the damage done to your party? Also, I may come across as abrasive but it's starting to irk me that we're on page 8 of this thread and people keep chiming in with strawmen.

Why the assumption that all people that are complaining about the healing changes are wanting to do is spam heals instead of use offensive abilities? Why can't they want to be an effective healer? In fact, wasn't the original poster's complaint that if you had Healing Aura active, you could not use offensive spells?

[SnowHeart1]

Koiruoho wrote...

No, you didn't. That doesn't mean that what the heal spell did in conjuction with health poultices was give you, for all intents and purposes, an infinite health pool since you'd have lyrium potions up the wazoo. Is it really that hard to see that by limiting the usage of that spell you'll have to think of more ways to mitigate the damage done to your party? Also, I may come across as abrasive but it's starting to irk me that we're on page 8 of this thread and people keep chiming in with strawmen.

I think the implicit suggestion in your previous post was strawman enough, that those who heal basically relied and/or depended on it to the exclusion of bothering to think about tactics and strategy. As far as I know, you weren't watching over my shoulder when I played. (And if you were... I'd like to learn that trick, 'k?) You have no idea how I played or what abilities/talents I relied on other than that some of us here have said we'd like to have healing remain a viable and useful talent. From that, you and others appear to have inferred that is all we want our mages to do, is to be healbots. Again... as far as I know, you weren't in the room when I have played DAO, so you really don't know. The fact remains that, if the purpose is to have talents that people use in the game, thereby making them a worthwhile investment of points and something "fun" to use, that isn't likely to happen if you can only trigger it once or twice during a battle. You're absolutely right... people will find other tactics and options, because being a healer is no longer viable. So, you win the argument, but that doesn't change the underlying fact. 

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 28 février 2011 - 10:59 .

[Koiruoho]

daywalker03 wrote...

Koiruoho wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

GunClubGirl wrote...

Since when is casting a healing spell "not tactical". It's just as tactical as any other battle action.

Apparently
not. The forumites have spoken, and woe betide those who heal as well
as harm, for to heal is to suxors while to harm is to pwn. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sick.png[/smilie]

Koiruoho wrote...

It's
not about whether an action like casting a spell or using a skill is
tactical, it's about what that particular button does and what sort of
tactics that effect opens up for you. In the case of the heal spell, it
enables you the tactic of pressing that button a hundred times in a row,
or better yet, having the AI cast it a hundred times in a row.
Conversely limiting the use of this skill forces you to think about
other buttons to press and mostly the usage of these other buttons
involve at least a bit more lateral thinking than 'health go up' .

Right... because that's the only thing I did in DAO... was spam the heal quickkey. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

No,
you didn't. That doesn't mean that what the heal spell did in
conjuction with health poultices was give you, for all intents and
purposes, an infinite health pool since you'd have lyrium potions up the
wazoo. Is it really that hard to see that by limiting the usage of that
spell you'll have to think of more ways to mitigate the damage done to
your party? Also, I may come across as abrasive but it's starting to irk
me that we're on page 8 of this thread and people keep chiming in with
strawmen.

Why the assumption that all people that
are complaining about the healing changes are wanting to do is spam
heals instead of use offensive abilities? Why can't they want to be an
effective healer? In fact, wasn't the original poster's complaint that
if you had Healing Aura active, you could not use offensive spells?

The OP has complained about 'removing healing' and the cooldown on the healing spell has been the topic of frequent discussion on the forums at large. The drawback on the aura is very similar to the cooldown. Also, why would people complain about the cooldown if they're not going to constantly use it? I'm not saying they're going to only use the heal spell, just that if it's a constant option for you, it's going to make things easier. If its usage is limited, then you'll have to rely on other avenues of keeping your characters alive once in a while.

Modifié par Koiruoho, 01 mars 2011 - 12:05 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Some specialization in party, cool. Bring on them clerics, or die.

[Koiruoho]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Koiruoho wrote...

No, you didn't. That doesn't mean that what the heal spell did in conjuction with health poultices was give you, for all intents and purposes, an infinite health pool since you'd have lyrium potions up the wazoo. Is it really that hard to see that by limiting the usage of that spell you'll have to think of more ways to mitigate the damage done to your party? Also, I may come across as abrasive but it's starting to irk me that we're on page 8 of this thread and people keep chiming in with strawmen.

I think the implicit suggestion in your previous post was strawman enough, that those who heal basically relied and/or depended on it to the exclusion of bothering to think about tactics and strategy. As far as I know, you weren't watching over my shoulder when I played. (And if you were... I'd like to learn that trick, 'k?) You have no idea how I played or what abilities/talents I relied on other than that some of us here have said we'd like to have healing remain a viable and useful talent. From that, you and others appear to have inferred that is all we want our mages to do, is to be healbots. Again... as far as I know, you weren't in the room when I have played DAO, so you really don't know. The fact remains that, if the purpose is to have talents that people use in the game, thereby making them a worthwhile investment of points and something "fun" to use, that isn't likely to happen if you can only trigger it once or twice during a battle. You're absolutely right... people will find other tactics and options, because being a healer is no longer viable. So, you win the argument, but that doesn't change the underlying fact. 

You're saying that healing is useless when it's blatantly not. What I've been arguing about is that healing makes things easier and making healing less frequent makes things more complicated. I can empathise with the fact that it might not be fun that they've done this but a) I can see the reasoning behind it and from what I've seen of the responses thus far is the fact that people don't seem to understand why it makes for a more tactical experience. It's not my intention to swoop in and spoil your fun like the grinch, but you can't cater to every taste. Even if they'd lower the cooldown on easier difficulties, you wouldn't have as much use for the spell anyways.

[SnowHeart1]

Koiruoho wrote...

*snip* I'm not saying they're going to only use the heal spell, just that if it's a constant option for you, it's going to make things easier. *snip*

 Okay. Serious question (I mean that sincerely; not trying to be argumentative nor sarcastic)... isn't that what the difficulty setting is for? 

Oh, and I'm not saying it's useless. I'm saying there's no point in investing in it because it's a poor investment. If it's easier to focus on dps instead of stamina (which is exactly the situation many of us experienced in the demo and which you are apparently advocating), then you don't invest in stamina and you have a talent that nobody uses... because it's a bad investment and/or just plain isn't "fun".

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 28 février 2011 - 11:12 .

[Bigdoser]

Lol i made a mage character for the demo all I used was 1 heal pot. All I did was set carver to defender teach both him and aveline pommel strike and teach my hawke the first ice spell made the whole fight easy.

[Rasputin]

Adhin wrote...

Not sure if this has been pointed out before but in general, all the healing (base, spirit healer, and potions) is in general, potentially more powerful then it was in DAO. It's all percent based this time around.

Think about it this way base Heal in DAO was basically 40HP, + .4 per spellpower. So at 100 spellpower you could heal, 80 dmg. It was static, you basically had to spam that thing. Same thing with healing potions. Group heal was 50HP + .5 per spellpower, or 100 hp at 100 SP.

Now look at DA2, base Heal is 40%, warrior with 200 hp? thats 80 hp. Upgrade it to 80% (demo is 60% but thats old, it was upgraded to 80% in retail) makes that 160 hp, near full heal instantly. Ultimately, mage as healer can do a better job of it in DA2 but you do have to think about it more. Be more specific with when you use heals instead of just spam-fest it. And Spirit Healer? that's pretty damn powerful as far as healing is concerned. +50% regen (not sure what that's over) but that'll be based off each persons max-hp. Plus group heals and whatnot, playing a healer or having a mage as a healer will be worth it. It's not a Nerf, so much as a buff and then some new balance around that increase in power.

Try to look past the cooldowns and actually take an indepth look at what they 'do' along with everything else.

Well said.  Having not played the released game yet, I can make no commenst other than how it was in the demo... which seemed fine to me.

[Koiruoho]

The skinny on my thoughts about the cooldown on lower difficulties was included in my last post. Also, I'm not advocating any particular setup or style of play but with all of the new melee class crowd control opportunities you should have more than adequate tools to win a fight. I think the new heal is fine, you're just forced to use other talents with it (as opposed to that you could do that if you so preferred). Although if people are having serious trouble with the difficulty of the demo, I'd glady advocate the lowering of the cooldown on, say, normal.

Modifié par Koiruoho, 28 février 2011 - 11:19 .

[Arkuran]

I'd say the Creation tree is fine, but they do really need to reduce cooldown times

[In Exile]

LexXxich wrote...
To be a mage, specialising in party buffing, healing and protecting. A "white mage", if your wish.
And it seems that playing as such is not only suboptimal, but also quite boring. Maybe unknown upgrades/passives in Spirit Healer tree will make effectiveness of such build skyrocket, but I wouldn't seriously hope for that.

If you were exclusively going to control a single character, I can see why a "white mage" would be boring. But if healing required lots of active micromanagement, that would be aggravating for players who want to manage their entire party. There isn't a lot of dedicated healing and buffing... but that may well be because Bioware did not actually try to design an exclusive buff/healing build, but rather a mix of that build + dmg dealing.

[Koiruoho]

I went back and reviewed some earlier comments about being a 'white mage' or 'to harm is pwn' - You don't necessarily have to mix up your plan of attack with more killing power, I'm more partial to control, myself. But if I'm reading this correctly, I'm afraid you'd probably need a game geared towards more cerebral gameplay from a roleplaying stance. This is not to say "go play Deus Ex or Planescape: Torment lol" but the fact remains that DA:O and probably DA2 features many, many instances of unavoidable combat and it seems to me that if you're trying to play these games with a sort of pacifist character, you're divorcing yourself from the fact that even though you're doing the healing, you and your cohorts as a group are butchering sentient beings, in brutal fashion. Not a knock on how you want to play your character but it's a bit at odds with the kind of games these are.

[Haristo]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

They're just trying to make healing more tactical. As opposed to spamming heal.

Edit: JYNX

This.

[Lethys1]

Healing in Awakening was too easy, Origins healing itself was alright, this game's healing is just not enough.  There is a middle ground in everything.

[AtreiyaN7]

The cooldown on healing spells is tactical whether you like it or not. Being able to spam an ability every 10 seconds is not tactical. Having to use your judgment about who deserves a heal spell because you know it's 60 seconds until you can cast it again IS tactical. Sorry if you don't like the cooldown, but too bad.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 01 mars 2011 - 12:29 .

[andar91]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

They're just trying to make healing more tactical. As opposed to spamming heal.

Edit: JYNX

This, and I think it's a good thing.

[Strike]

BioWare hates healing more than you know. They banned Band-Aids and Tylenol from their offices. One time someone got a paper cut and they bled a slow, painful death as they watched, laughing mercilessly.

[Peter Thomas]

Strike wrote...

BioWare hates healing more than you know. They banned Band-Aids and Tylenol from their offices. One time someone got a paper cut and they bled a slow, painful death as they watched, laughing mercilessly.

It was a good day.


Edit: Oh, and to address an earlier post, offensive spells are basically ones that do damage. If it doesn't do damage, or does so in a very indirect way (Tempest/Firestorm is not indirect), then you can still use it.

And there is an error in the Healing Aura description... It's not +50%, it's +20. Same abstraction as health regeneration. For reference, base warrior regeneration rate is 10. So it triples a Warrior's normal regeneration rate. That can also be upgraded. Healing Aura isn't something that's meant to be overpowering by itself, it's supposed to be more noticeable over time.

Modifié par Peter Thomas, 01 mars 2011 - 12:37 .

[mesmerizedish]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Strike wrote...

BioWare hates healing more than you know. They banned Band-Aids and Tylenol from their offices. One time someone got a paper cut and they bled a slow, painful death as they watched, laughing mercilessly.

It was a good day.

And this is why we can't have nice things

[lv12medic]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Strike wrote...

BioWare hates healing more than you know. They banned Band-Aids and Tylenol from their offices. One time someone got a paper cut and they bled a slow, painful death as they watched, laughing mercilessly.

It was a good day.

Bioware hates healing?
Medics heal?
Therefore Bioware hates Medics?

But I ... *sniffle* bu... bu... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!