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[LilyasAvalon]

Anders is kinda like the Loghain in this, everybody ends up hating him but deep down, his reasons are kinda justified, even if his methods aren't.

...Huh, so that does make Sebby like Alistair. Will he have his love of cheese? xD

[KenKenpachi]

Nerevar-as wrote...

There´s an achievement for exorcising a party member. Anders or Merril?

Hmm let me go get my holy water and phone book...

[Chignon]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Chignon wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Betrayal is subjective in this game.   Yes, in essence he has lied... but not all lies are not made to purposefully hurt others (well, Hawke in this case).  Maybe he didn't want Hawke to get thrown in the middle of his plans.  Perhaps he didn't want Hawke to take any of the blame.  We may have to wait to play the game ourselves to get a full explanation out of him.

Klace was pretty clear about why he lied. He wanted Hawke's help and feared he would not get it if he told the truth.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.  *shrug*  As crazy as that sounds.

As reasonable as someone can be when being possessed by a spirit of Vengeance, lying about wanting to be seperated from said spirit, mistreating the trust placed in him and blowing up Chantries.

[LilyasAvalon]

hhh89 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I wonder if Ander's reaction changes at all if you romanced him... and for that matter, if Sebastian only leaves if he's in the party with you.

We don't know what level of friendship Klace has with Anders. Maybe something can change if he's at 100% friendly or in the rivarly path. I'll se when I play.

I don't wanna wait 3-4 more days to get mine.... I won't even have time to play it because of this blighted school work.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Chignon wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Chignon wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Betrayal is subjective in this game.   Yes, in essence he has lied... but not all lies are not made to purposefully hurt others (well, Hawke in this case).  Maybe he didn't want Hawke to get thrown in the middle of his plans.  Perhaps he didn't want Hawke to take any of the blame.  We may have to wait to play the game ourselves to get a full explanation out of him.

Klace was pretty clear about why he lied. He wanted Hawke's help and feared he would not get it if he told the truth.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.  *shrug*  As crazy as that sounds.

As reasonable as someone can be when being possessed by a spirit of Vengeance, lying about wanting to be seperated from said spirit, mistreating the trust placed in him and blowing up Chantries.

Not gonna say it wasn't unexpected, but I'm gonna see how I interpret that when I romance/friend/rival him to 100.  The guide doesn't seem to give us any indication if that changes.

[arsonic]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Sometimes decisions are made for us, too. And I have to applaud Jennifer Helper's handling of that. Anders's cause is noble. The pain he and other mages have gone through is horrible, and the Chantry has twisted the words of the Maker in order to reign them in. The Mages in Kirkwall are thrown into former slave chambers -- how could one NOT feel for them at that point? Not to mention that the Chantry makes its own decisions, often against the rulers of countries (Alistair's mage boon, anyone?).  There are also others who would use the Chantry to gain political ground (take Seb for example, who was more or less thrown into the Chantry because of a political move).

One must also ponder Andraste and her origins as well.  One of the gifts you can give to Wynne suggest a lot about her, and how she wasn't the true prophet... and it looks liked it had escaped a fire.   It's really hard to say who to believe anymore when all of our information is fed to us by a singular source.

I could also say that religion has been at the core of all world wars, but that's getting into some philosophical/religious argument that probably isn't appropriate here.

But does the ends justify the means?  What is Justice? That's up for us to decide.

Yeah, I've actually been thinking about this more, and after the initial shock of "Anders did what?" it makes more sense. Like that one blood mage said in the Circle Tower, Andraste waged war to get change. If you talk to Wynne in Awakenings, and side with the Libertarian view, your Warden even says if the mages don't fight, they will never be free. So as sort of morally nice as it is to think that the solution could be "Well if mages are really good, and prove themselves, we'll get free...eventually..." The chances of that happening are low- especially because my Warden asked for that damn boon and didn't get it. If you did that in your Origins playthrough, Anders (and Hawke) very likely think that playing nice isn't going to work anymore.

I dunno. My kneejerk reaction was definitely not good, but it makes a lot of sense. I still want to see if a Rivalry could stop him just for S&G (I actually highly doubt it now), but I can definitely see supporting it in at least one playthrough.

[The Elder King]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I wonder if Ander's reaction changes at all if you romanced him... and for that matter, if Sebastian only leaves if he's in the party with you.

We don't know what level of friendship Klace has with Anders. Maybe something can change if he's at 100% friendly or in the rivarly path. I'll se when I play.

I don't wanna wait 3-4 more days to get mine.... I won't even have time to play it because of this blighted school work.

I know. I have to wait the 10-11th for the release and I have and university exam at the end of March. 

[Requel]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I wonder if Ander's reaction changes at all if you romanced him... and for that matter, if Sebastian only leaves if he's in the party with you.

We don't know what level of friendship Klace has with Anders. Maybe something can change if he's at 100% friendly or in the rivarly path. I'll se when I play.

I don't wanna wait 3-4 more days to get mine.... I won't even have time to play it because of this blighted school work.

I have the same problem. ;(

[Chignon]

Not unexpected, RinjiRenee? You honestly expected him to do all this or am I misunderstanding you?

[The Elder King]

Chignon wrote...

Not unexpected, RinjiRenee? You honestly expected him to do all this or am I misunderstanding you?

I didn't expect the destroy of the Chantry, but I've expected some big dramatic actions from Anders.

[SurelyForth]

If Anders tricks his LI into allowing him to blow up the Chantry, that's pretty unconscionable. It makes Hawke complicit in the death of innocents and...*cries*.

Note to self: Never get excited when you find out BW is bringing back your favorite characters.

[LilyasAvalon]

hhh89 wrote...

I know. I have to wait the 10-11th for the release and I have and university exam at the end of March. 

I know, right? This my final year of High School right here, I'm studying for University right now... AND ALL THE BEST GAMES ARE COMING OUT! 

[OHM_LO]

Now the only thing left to clear out is if Hawke can save his/her mother ..

[Rinji the Bearded]

Oh, I didn't know he was going to be the one to blow up the chantry at all. That was unexpected. But I can't find myself to immediately condemn him, even if he lied.  I think I used a double negative there on accident.   So!  *wasn't expected, is what I meant.  Sorry about that.

@arsonic - True about Andraste. And I'm sure that many, MANY people died to get that change, more than we, or the Chantry, would like for us to believe.

SurelyForth wrote...

If Anders tricks his LI into allowing
him to blow up the Chantry, that's pretty unconscionable. It makes
Hawke complicit in the death of innocents and...*cries*.

Note to self: Never get excited when you find out BW is bringing back your favorite characters.

Yes, it is tricky... but innocence is so hard to find anymore.  I wish there the uh, how to say... "grey" area, like the Grey Wardens.  But alas, no more Blight for now.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 06 mars 2011 - 03:36 .

[Nerevar-as]

What race is Orsino?

[Xeyska]

Nerevar-as wrote...

What race is Orsino?

Elf.

[The Elder King]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I know. I have to wait the 10-11th for the release and I have and university exam at the end of March. 

I know, right? This my final year of High School right here, I'm studying for University right now... AND ALL THE BEST GAMES ARE COMING OUT! 

Yeah. Hopefully I can have some time to play. In my first year on university I studied a civil law exam of nearly 1000 pages in one week and took a great vote. I think I've enough time to study.

[Dante Angelo]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Batorific wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
 I really, really need to know.... WHY HE ISN'T SEXING UP MY M!TABRIS. *RAAAAGE*

The Warden mysteriously vanishes at some point in time. i imagine a Romanced Zevran is trying to find the Warden.

That's no excuse! Seriously! Where would The Warden go, but not take his/her love interest? Or at least leave a note! Or.... give some clue to wear he/she is going! FANGIRL... RAGE... BUILDING....!

The Warden probably didn't leave a note or a clue because he/she was taken possibly by Flemeth although I'm positive this is why Hawke and the Warden are gone I'm still trying to figure out why Flemeth would take them.

[LilyasAvalon]

I hope we don't get in trouble for having a potentially spoilerific signature, Malja. ._.

[Pedro Costa]

Loving this game already.
If only for the fact that I'll have to *think* on how to relate to the rest of the companions, since this time around they aren't mindless sheep who only do whatever the heck you tell them to do and bow at your every whim and desire. They have their own goals and motivations along with a proper sense of identity, regardless (mostly) of what you mean to them.
Also, there really isn't a clear-cut "good" or "bad". It's really subjective to a player's point of view.

To top it all off, there doesn't to be a "third" option where everything can be resolved without consequences (a la Connor).

Can't wait for the bloody game.

[LilyasAvalon]

Also, regarding the Warden's disappearance. I do think it was involuntary and something to do with Flemeth. Even more so now that we know Hawke goes missing by the end of DA2 as well.

[Dante Angelo]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Also, regarding the Warden's disappearance. I do think it was involuntary and something to do with Flemeth. Even more so now that we know Hawke goes missing by the end of DA2 as well.

Yes but why?! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE YOU'RE TEARING ME APART BIOWARE!!!!

[Chignon]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Oh, I didn't know he was going to be the one to blow up the chantry at all. That was unexpected. But I can't find myself to immediately condemn him, even if he lied.  I think I used a double negative there on accident.   So!  *wasn't expected, is what I meant.  Sorry about that.

It's alright, you needn't apologise.

I find it hard to imagine what you would condemn him for then if not for blowing up a Chantry that does not only hold templars and priests but can also be a place of refuge for "innocent" people and using the trust Hawke placed in him, the hope to seperate him from Vengeance only in order to achieve his own goals.
 
I'm not trying to offend, I'm just curious.

[Northern Sun]

This may have already been asked but since I want to minimize spoilers: Is there any gameplay that takes place post Cassandra-Varric interview?

[White_Buffalo94]

SurelyForth wrote...

If Anders tricks his LI into allowing him to blow up the Chantry, that's pretty unconscionable. It makes Hawke complicit in the death of innocents and...*cries*.

Note to self: Never get excited when you find out BW is bringing back your favorite characters.

My Hawke is typically going to be a good and diplomatic, fair-minded man. However, anyone within a Chantry in my jurisdiction is a criminal and I won't hesitate to blow them up. The Chantry is evil and it is smarter to destroy its followers