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[LilyasAvalon]

Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Also, regarding the Warden's disappearance. I do think it was involuntary and something to do with Flemeth. Even more so now that we know Hawke goes missing by the end of DA2 as well.

Yes but why?! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE YOU'RE TEARING ME APART BIOWARE!!!!

Why? The same reason they're making me choose between Anders and Sebastian, that's why.

[Batfeets]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Anders is kinda like the Loghain in this, everybody ends up hating him but deep down, his reasons are kinda justified, even if his methods aren't.

...Huh, so that does make Sebby like Alistair. Will he have his love of cheese? xD

I have to say,  I can see Loghain's justifications.  He's a good man at heart,  just stubborn and mentally scarred by a life of war.  He's swayed after he causes a lot of pain, and he has a taste of the tragic about him.

However,  I can't really justify Anders...because honestly,  he's become everything that the Templars *should* destroy.  An out of control force that doesn't allow itself to be tamed.  An abomination causing pain to innocents.  The fact that he lies to Hawke and forces him to take part in the name of love our friendship...urgh.   Especially after hearing what kind of people he's killing in that building.  Chantry isn't the same as Templars, really, and yet Anders still kills them mercilessly.  He has no idea of which is his enemy anymore.

 I hope for the chance to change him before these events happen.  

[Nerevar-as]

If the Warden left with Morrigan I guess Finch would tell what had happened. I wonder if the game will acknowledge this, and what the dialogue will be with US Warden.

[The Elder King]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

If Anders tricks his LI into allowing him to blow up the Chantry, that's pretty unconscionable. It makes Hawke complicit in the death of innocents and...*cries*.

Note to self: Never get excited when you find out BW is bringing back your favorite characters.

My Hawke is typically going to be a good and diplomatic, fair-minded man. However, anyone within a Chantry in my jurisdiction is a criminal and I won't hesitate to blow them up. The Chantry is evil and it is smarter to destroy its followers

It's possible that there are orphans in the Chantry though. He was pretty extreme.

[Malja]

Dante Angelo wrote...

The Warden probably didn't leave a note or a clue because he/she was taken possibly by Flemeth although I'm positive this is why Hawke and the Warden are gone I'm still trying to figure out why Flemeth would take them.

Ooo the mystery of where our beefed up characters have gone off to. Yeah we probably won't get closure on that anytime soon. If we do, though... you won't hear me complain. I have a feeling it may be a driving force for future installments (disappearing living legends) and lord knows where they've ended up.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Chignon wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Oh, I didn't know he was going to be the one to blow up the chantry at all. That was unexpected. But I can't find myself to immediately condemn him, even if he lied.  I think I used a double negative there on accident.   So!  *wasn't expected, is what I meant.  Sorry about that.

It's alright, you needn't apologise.

I find it hard to imagine what you would condemn him for then if not for blowing up a Chantry that does not only hold templars and priests but can also be a place of refuge for "innocent" people and using the trust Hawke placed in him, the hope to seperate him from Vengeance only in order to achieve his own goals.
 
I'm not trying to offend, I'm just curious.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from.  It DOES hurt that he did that, and I can easily see why others could condemn him in that case.  I wonder if you kill Anders that you are automatically on the Templar's side, of if you can kill him for reasons of "Justice" and then side with the Mages.  That would be quite dramatic indeed.

[Nerevar-as]

Batfeets wrote...

I have to say,  I can see Loghain's justifications.  He's a good man at heart,  just stubborn and mentally scarred by a life of war.  He's swayed after he causes a lot of pain, and he has a taste of the tragic about him.

However,  I can't really justify Anders...because honestly,  he's become everything that the Templars *should* destroy.  An out of control force that doesn't allow itself to be tamed.  An abomination causing pain to innocents.  The fact that he lies to Hawke and forces him to take part in the name of love our friendship...urgh.   Especially after hearing what kind of people he's killing in that building.  Chantry isn't the same as Templars, really, and yet Anders still kills them mercilessly.  He has no idea of which is his enemy anymore.

 I hope for the chance to change him before these events happen.  

I doubt he is really the same Anders as Awakenings. After merging with Justice it is more about revenge than justice. Thus he cares less about things such as collateral damage.

[LilyasAvalon]

Batfeets wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Anders is kinda like the Loghain in this, everybody ends up hating him but deep down, his reasons are kinda justified, even if his methods aren't.

...Huh, so that does make Sebby like Alistair. Will he have his love of cheese? xD

I have to say,  I can see Loghain's justifications.  He's a good man at heart,  just stubborn and mentally scarred by a life of war.  He's swayed after he causes a lot of pain, and he has a taste of the tragic about him.

However,  I can't really justify Anders...because honestly,  he's become everything that the Templars *should* destroy.  An out of control force that doesn't allow itself to be tamed.  An abomination causing pain to innocents.  The fact that he lies to Hawke and forces him to take part in the name of love our friendship...urgh.   Especially after hearing what kind of people he's killing in that building.  Chantry isn't the same as Templars, really, and yet Anders still kills them mercilessly.  He has no idea of which is his enemy anymore.

 I hope for the chance to change him before these events happen.  

Well, obviously I'm talking about before Anders went batcrazy on us.

I mean more, the general treatment mages get, being watched 24/7 by the templars, feeling trapped, suffocating, knowing that given a damn good reason, they'll kill you in a heartbeat. It can't exactly be all that great on somebody's mind. That is kinda the reason for the rebellion of the Fereldan circle of Magi.

We also have to remember what happened to Anders when he thought he had a home, thought he was free, they just sent templars to join the wardens to keep a constant eye on him. And then they attempted to kill him again with no real good reason.

[Dante Angelo]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

If Anders tricks his LI into allowing him to blow up the Chantry, that's pretty unconscionable. It makes Hawke complicit in the death of innocents and...*cries*.

Note to self: Never get excited when you find out BW is bringing back your favorite characters.

My Hawke is typically going to be a good and diplomatic, fair-minded man. However, anyone within a Chantry in my jurisdiction is a criminal and I won't hesitate to blow them up. The Chantry is evil and it is smarter to destroy its followers

As much as I hate the chantry( I hate it more than Shale hates pigeons) I don't believe everyone in the chantry is evil. Hard headed maybe evil no.

[Batfeets]

Nerevar-as wrote...

I doubt he is really the same Anders as Awakenings. After merging with Justice it is more about revenge than justice. Thus he cares less about things such as collateral damage.

That's exactly what I mean though.  He's an abomination now.  If Justice can't be changed back and the two seperated without him lying a nd getting you to do such things...well.... At least for me,  if it can't be remedied,  I can't condone it.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Dante Angelo wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

If Anders tricks his LI into allowing him to blow up the Chantry, that's pretty unconscionable. It makes Hawke complicit in the death of innocents and...*cries*.

Note to self: Never get excited when you find out BW is bringing back your favorite characters.

My Hawke is typically going to be a good and diplomatic, fair-minded man. However, anyone within a Chantry in my jurisdiction is a criminal and I won't hesitate to blow them up. The Chantry is evil and it is smarter to destroy its followers

As much as I hate the chantry( I hate it more than Shale hates pigeons) I don't believe everyone in the chantry is evil. Hard headed maybe evil no.

And not all Mages are evil, either.  But they are given no justice whatsoever.  Hard decision to make.

[LilyasAvalon]

The templars seem more 'evil' than the chantry, but the templars stand for the chantry, Anders was evidently making a point.

[Malja]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Well, obviously I'm talking about before Anders went batcrazy on us.

I mean more, the general treatment mages get, being watched 24/7 by the templars, feeling trapped, suffocating, knowing that given a damn good reason, they'll kill you in a heartbeat. It can't exactly be all that great on somebody's mind. That is kinda the reason for the rebellion of the Fereldan circle of Magi.

We also have to remember what happened to Anders when he thought he had a home, thought he was free, they just sent templars to join the wardens to keep a constant eye on him. And then they attempted to kill him again with no real good reason.

Egh yeah... When you think about the adaptive efforts people make, it's really hard to find a right/wrong answer. It's really just twisted.

I love you, BioWare.

[Dante Angelo]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Also, regarding the Warden's disappearance. I do think it was involuntary and something to do with Flemeth. Even more so now that we know Hawke goes missing by the end of DA2 as well.

Yes but why?! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE YOU'RE TEARING ME APART BIOWARE!!!!

Why? The same reason they're making me choose between Anders and Sebastian, that's why.

Well you might not have to choose because when Anders destroys the chantry it's because Vengeance controls him at least thats what I think

[Chignon]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

If Anders tricks his LI into allowing him to blow up the Chantry, that's pretty unconscionable. It makes Hawke complicit in the death of innocents and...*cries*.

Note to self: Never get excited when you find out BW is bringing back your favorite characters.

My Hawke is typically going to be a good and diplomatic, fair-minded man. However, anyone within a Chantry in my jurisdiction is a criminal and I won't hesitate to blow them up. The Chantry is evil and it is smarter to destroy its followers

Good and diplomatic as well as fair-minded and your Hawke condems everyone who is in the Chantry? A bit contradicting.

With all the Chantry hate it is good to keep in mind what St. Mael who also finished the game wrote a few pages back:

St Mael wrote...

I find it weird how people are still ignorantly raging against the chantry and have impregnated into their heads the idea that they will have it burn in their playthroughs.

I also finished the game and I want to inform you people that the game lore depicts the chantry as a completely different faction than the templars. The game is all about mages vs. templars and not mages vs. chantry.

After finishing the game I noticed that the chantry, through Elthina, was the only voice of reason within the whole cluster**** between the templars and the mages. The Grand Cleric never showed support to Meredith, thus proving the templar - chantry relation completely irrelevant, on the contrary she did voice her sympathy regarding the terrible situation of the mages when prompted in conversation.

Thus I find it very disconcerting that the chantry is still the one organization that truly suffers from everything that happens. Both Orsino and Meredith were proven in the end to be rotten to core while Elthina was the only truly decent one, and yet she was killed and the chantry destroyed because of that idiot Anders. I still can't believe what a douche he was and how he could do something so terrible. Now I really hate his character, I couldn't find myself not to go against the mages with the Rite of Anulment after that. Thankfully I was able to stick it to Meredith too in the end.


In conclusion I just wanted to point out that the Chantry is not evil at all and that people should reconsider their attitudes regarding it, no matter whether they choose the mages or templars path to go through a few levels when the story gets near the end (the whole thing is just a game mechanic anyway and both choices lead to the same thing).

[Rinji the Bearded]

Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Also, regarding the Warden's disappearance. I do think it was involuntary and something to do with Flemeth. Even more so now that we know Hawke goes missing by the end of DA2 as well.

Yes but why?! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE YOU'RE TEARING ME APART BIOWARE!!!!

Why? The same reason they're making me choose between Anders and Sebastian, that's why.

Well you might not have to choose because when Anders destroys the chantry it's because Vengeance controls him at least thats what I think

I think Anders' hatred controls him even moreso than Justice does.

[LilyasAvalon]

I love the evolution of all this, this really makes me feel a lot closer to Hawke now. ~

[Malja]

Dante Angelo wrote...

Well you might not have to choose because when Anders destroys the chantry it's because Vengeance controls him at least thats what I think

I do not think there is any forceful takeover, just mutual influence.

Modifié par Malja, 06 mars 2011 - 03:51 .

[LilyasAvalon]

Justice was transformed because of Anders' hatred, let's not forget that.

[FASherman]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Also, regarding the Warden's disappearance. I do think it was involuntary and something to do with Flemeth. Even more so now that we know Hawke goes missing by the end of DA2 as well.

My guess is that in DA3, you become the Something of Orlais, who also goes missing and then in DA4, the fina in the series, you find the three main characters from the first three. The final Boss Battle is an epic battle where all 4 of your DA characters join together to defeat the Flemeth/Abomination and end the blights for ever.

Or not.

[The Elder King]

I'm going to wait to judge Anders untile I have all the info. I don't know if the things can changed if you choose different options, though I haven't much hope, since the destruction of the Chantry seems pretty fixed (plus, the whole Anders-Sebastian choice seems fixed)

[Dante Angelo]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

If Anders tricks his LI into allowing him to blow up the Chantry, that's pretty unconscionable. It makes Hawke complicit in the death of innocents and...*cries*.

Note to self: Never get excited when you find out BW is bringing back your favorite characters.

My Hawke is typically going to be a good and diplomatic, fair-minded man. However, anyone within a Chantry in my jurisdiction is a criminal and I won't hesitate to blow them up. The Chantry is evil and it is smarter to destroy its followers

As much as I hate the chantry( I hate it more than Shale hates pigeons) I don't believe everyone in the chantry is evil. Hard headed maybe evil no.

And not all Mages are evil, either.  But they are given no justice whatsoever.  Hard decision to make.

Exactly. I have a feeling that most of the leaders in Kirkwall are corrupt. Rendon Howe would fit in great

[DaVanguard]

what happens to merrill?

[Batfeets]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Well, obviously I'm talking about before Anders went batcrazy on us.

I mean more, the general treatment mages get, being watched 24/7 by the templars, feeling trapped, suffocating, knowing that given a damn good reason, they'll kill you in a heartbeat. It can't exactly be all that great on somebody's mind. That is kinda the reason for the rebellion of the Fereldan circle of Magi.

We also have to remember what happened to Anders when he thought he had a home, thought he was free, they just sent templars to join the wardens to keep a constant eye on him. And then they attempted to kill him again with no real good reason.

Oh, of course.  I'm just saying that he's not THAT Anders anymore.  The darker part of his heart corrupted the good Fade Spirit we all loved as Justice and now,  they're a dangerous abomination.  This is *why* the Templars have so much power over mages in the first place...the fact that this sort of thing is possible.  Unfortunately,  it's not really clear as to why those Templars were sent, either;  it could be because they knew that Anders had another spirit living inside him.  We have no way of knowing if he's gone berserk and killed innocents prior to that short story.

I respect everyone's opinions and justifications though.  It just makes me sad he's changed so much that I don't think I can condone having him around.  T_T;

[arsonic]

Chignon wrote...

Not unexpected, RinjiRenee? You honestly expected him to do all this or am I misunderstanding you?

I don't think she expected it, but I think she can see why. But it's not a black and white moral decision, that's for sure. It actually made me think about my Origins characters- my Cousland's idea of justice was killing Howe, she executed Loghain and Jowan, made Harrowmont king, would've probably killed the Architect. My Amell let Jowan go free twice, made Bhelen king, spared the Architect, did the Dark Ritual without blinking because "magic is magic". Like someone said, if Anders, say, saved my sibling from dying in the Deep Roads, had been a good friend throughout the whole time I'd known him, and then destroyed the head of the organization oppressing my kind? It would be a way different response than, say, a warrior Hawke who thought mages were okay but needed to be watched, who maybe was in love with Fenris. The "right" thing to do is going to be different depending how you're playing it, and I dig that.

The lying...that, I do have a problem with. If we're such good friends/LI's I would be hurt and angry that he didn't trust me and that he tricked me into doing something, whether I agreed with it or not. But if I did agree, maybe I could decide that the end justified the means. Damn you Bioware. CHOICES<_<