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Super-Spoiler Discussion Thread (HEAVY HEAVY SPOILERS IN OP)


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#5076
LilyasAvalon

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FASherman wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Also, regarding the Warden's disappearance. I do think it was involuntary and something to do with Flemeth. Even more so now that we know Hawke goes missing by the end of DA2 as well.


My guess is that in DA3, you become the Something of Orlais, who also goes missing and then in DA4, the fina in the series, you find the three main characters from the first three. The final Boss Battle is an epic battle where all 4 of your DA characters join together to defeat the Flemeth/Abomination and end the blights for ever.

Or not. Posted Image

If the devs keep to their original promise of the Dragon Age games not being about a singular person, but rather, the entire lore and world, that is probably what is going to happen.

But so far, a few of them are already talking about Hawke in DA3 and Cassandra and... ngh...

#5077
The Elder King

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I want to say that we probably find the character that Priestly named "douche". It's Anders, since from DAA it seems a kind person.

Modifié par hhh89, 06 mars 2011 - 03:55 .


#5078
SurelyForth

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

Well, obviously I'm talking about before Anders went batcrazy on us. Posted Image

I mean more, the general treatment mages get, being watched 24/7 by the templars, feeling trapped, suffocating, knowing that given a damn good reason, they'll kill you in a heartbeat. It can't exactly be all that great on somebody's mind. That is kinda the reason for the rebellion of the Fereldan circle of Magi.

We also have to remember what happened to Anders when he thought he had a home, thought he was free, they just sent templars to join the wardens to keep a constant eye on him. And then they attempted to kill him again with no real good reason.


I agree that the Wardens were ****s for giving him a pet templar, but in the story they were trying to kill him because they saw him being taken over by Justice and assumed he was possessed. It's not awesome, but it's kinda a thing that templars are trained to do. They probably don't know the difference between "Oh, hey there Justice. Sure, come on in" and Flaming Abomination.

And now I'm defending templars. *mindblasts self*

Modifié par SurelyForth, 06 mars 2011 - 03:55 .


#5079
Malja

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FASherman wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Also, regarding the Warden's disappearance. I do think it was involuntary and something to do with Flemeth. Even more so now that we know Hawke goes missing by the end of DA2 as well.


My guess is that in DA3, you become the Something of Orlais, who also goes missing and then in DA4, the fina in the series, you find the three main characters from the first three. The final Boss Battle is an epic battle where all 4 of your DA characters join together to defeat the Flemeth/Abomination and end the blights for ever.

Or not. Posted Image


Mmm as lovely and logical as that sounds (who am I to deem what is logical in this mess pffff), I think that'd become needlessly complicated. Appearances and such. HOWEVER if they make it work I will be so damn giddy.

#5080
LilyasAvalon

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Batfeets wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Well, obviously I'm talking about before Anders went batcrazy on us. Posted Image

I mean more, the general treatment mages get, being watched 24/7 by the templars, feeling trapped, suffocating, knowing that given a damn good reason, they'll kill you in a heartbeat. It can't exactly be all that great on somebody's mind. That is kinda the reason for the rebellion of the Fereldan circle of Magi.

We also have to remember what happened to Anders when he thought he had a home, thought he was free, they just sent templars to join the wardens to keep a constant eye on him. And then they attempted to kill him again with no real good reason.


Oh, of course.  I'm just saying that he's not THAT Anders anymore.  The darker part of his heart corrupted the good Fade Spirit we all loved as Justice and now,  they're a dangerous abomination.  This is *why* the Templars have so much power over mages in the first place...the fact that this sort of thing is possible.  Unfortunately,  it's not really clear as to why those Templars were sent, either;  it could be because they knew that Anders had another spirit living inside him.  We have no way of knowing if he's gone berserk and killed innocents prior to that short story.

I respect everyone's opinions and justifications though.  It just makes me sad he's changed so much that I don't think I can condone having him around.  T_T;

We've only seen brief gameplay and spoilers, the writers assured us he was still the same Anders, I will wait and see when I get my game and make my judgments off that.

...ultimately though, it all depends on his performance in bed. Posted Image

#5081
Dante Angelo

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

Justice was transformed because of Anders' hatred, let's not forget that.

Ya but in Awakening Justice tells Anders he should rise against the chantry to which Anders replies its not worth getting killed over( or something along those lines)

#5082
Malja

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

...ultimately though, it all depends on his performance in bed. Posted Image


Posted Image You... oh god. Took the serious contemplation all outta me.

#5083
LilyasAvalon

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SurelyForth wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Well, obviously I'm talking about before Anders went batcrazy on us. Posted Image

I mean more, the general treatment mages get, being watched 24/7 by the templars, feeling trapped, suffocating, knowing that given a damn good reason, they'll kill you in a heartbeat. It can't exactly be all that great on somebody's mind. That is kinda the reason for the rebellion of the Fereldan circle of Magi.

We also have to remember what happened to Anders when he thought he had a home, thought he was free, they just sent templars to join the wardens to keep a constant eye on him. And then they attempted to kill him again with no real good reason.


I agree that the Wardens were ****s for giving him a pet templar, but in the story they were trying to kill him because they saw him being taken over by Justice and assumed he was possessed. It's not awesome, but it's kinda a thing that templars are trained to do. They probably don't know the difference between "Oh, hey there Justice. Sure, come on in" and Flaming Abomination.

And now I'm defending templars. *mindblasts self*

Anders short story hinted that they had been watching him a long time before he and Justice became one though. They were just waiting for an excuse to butcher him. And regardless, even Duncan said, 'Your duties are to the grey wardens now, not the templars'. Templars can't go killing off other grey wardens just because it's what they used to do.

They are called Grey Wardens for a reason, they take anyone, as long as they get the job done. Somehow, I think the original Anders/Justice thing wouldn't bother my Warden... if he didn't, ya know, eat people.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 06 mars 2011 - 04:03 .


#5084
LilyasAvalon

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Malja wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

...ultimately though, it all depends on his performance in bed. Posted Image


Posted Image You... oh god. Took the serious contemplation all outta me.

What can I say? I am a weak weak woman. Posted Image

#5085
Chignon

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arsonic wrote...

I don't think she expected it, but I think she can see why. But it's not a black and white moral decision, that's for sure. It actually made me think about my Origins characters- my Cousland's idea of justice was killing Howe, she executed Loghain and Jowan, made Harrowmont king, would've probably killed the Architect. My Amell let Jowan go free twice, made Bhelen king, spared the Architect, did the Dark Ritual without blinking because "magic is magic". Like someone said, if Anders, say, saved my sibling from dying in the Deep Roads, had been a good friend throughout the whole time I'd known him, and then destroyed the head of the organization oppressing my kind? It would be a way different response than, say, a warrior Hawke who thought mages were okay but needed to be watched, who maybe was in love with Fenris. The "right" thing to do is going to be different depending how you're playing it, and I dig that.

The lying...that, I do have a problem with. If we're such good friends/LI's I would be hurt and angry that he didn't trust me and that he tricked me into doing something, whether I agreed with it or not. But if I did agree, maybe I could decide that the end justified the means. Damn you Bioware. CHOICES<_<


The choice not being black and white doesn't condone his actions nor is it a justifications for what he has undoubtly done. Being a good friend up to that point or saving Hawke's siblings from the Blight doesn't somehow "even" it out, either. His actions are horrifying regardless.


I'm going to quote it again because it obviously needs to be:


St Mael wrote...

I find it weird how people are still ignorantly raging against the chantry and have impregnated into their heads the idea that they will have it burn in their playthroughs.

I also finished the game and I want to inform you people that the game lore depicts the chantry as a completely different faction than the templars. The game is all about mages vs. templars and not mages vs. chantry.

After finishing the game I noticed that the chantry, through Elthina, was the only voice of reason within the whole cluster**** between the templars and the mages. The Grand Cleric never showed support to Meredith, thus proving the templar - chantry relation completely irrelevant, on the contrary she did voice her sympathy regarding the terrible situation of the mages when prompted in conversation.

Thus I find it very disconcerting that the chantry is still the one organization that truly suffers from everything that happens. Both Orsino and Meredith were proven in the end to be rotten to core while Elthina was the only truly decent one, and yet she was killed and the chantry destroyed because of that idiot Anders. I still can't believe what a douche he was and how he could do something so terrible. Now I really hate his character, I couldn't find myself not to go against the mages with the Rite of Anulment after that. Thankfully I was able to stick it to Meredith too in the end.


In conclusion I just wanted to point out that the Chantry is not evil at all and that people should reconsider their attitudes regarding it, no matter whether they choose the mages or templars path to go through a few levels when the story gets near the end (the whole thing is just a game mechanic anyway and both choices lead to the same thing).



#5086
LilyasAvalon

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Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Justice was transformed because of Anders' hatred, let's not forget that.

Ya but in Awakening Justice tells Anders he should rise against the chantry to which Anders replies its not worth getting killed over( or something along those lines)

I got confused about that too. Awakening Anders seems like the type to defy the chantry and templars, but never hate. He too seemed to believe in the maker and Andraste and he was overall, a kindly character.  He even said so himself something along the lines of 'The Circle NEEDS the Chantry'. when you get a quest from Wynne in Awakening.

#5087
MassShep93

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Also, regarding the Warden's disappearance. I do think it was involuntary and something to do with Flemeth. Even more so now that we know Hawke goes missing by the end of DA2 as well.

Yes but why?! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE YOU'RE TEARING ME APART BIOWARE!!!!

Why? The same reason they're making me choose between Anders and Sebastian, that's why. Posted Image




Posted Image

#5088
Malja

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Justice was transformed because of Anders' hatred, let's not forget that.

Ya but in Awakening Justice tells Anders he should rise against the chantry to which Anders replies its not worth getting killed over( or something along those lines)

I got confused about that too. Awakening Anders seems like the type to defy the chantry and templars, but never hate. He too seemed to believe in the maker and Andraste and he was overall, a kindly character.  He even said so himself something along the lines of 'The Circle NEEDS the Chantry'. when you get a quest from Wynne in Awakening.


Mhm. There're certain degrees to it. Just because he believes Anders should seek justice does not mean he wishes for Anders to blindly and inconsiderately act the way he does. One concept doesn't entail everything after all.

#5089
arsonic

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Chignon wrote...

Good and diplomatic as well as fair-minded and your Hawke condems everyone who is in the Chantry? A bit contradicting.

With all the Chantry hate it is good to keep in mind what St. Mael who also finished the game wrote a few pages back:


On the other hand, the Chantry controls the Templars, period. She may say she doesn't like what Meredith does, and that's good to hear, but if she doesn't do anything about it, is that just as bad as agreeing with it? Anders thinks yes, I guess.

I would like to say that Anders will definitely be getting death knifed in one playthrough. I guarantee it. I'm not trying to insist anyone is "wrong", just enjoying speculating/debating about the different points of view people and characters could have on this. If anything, it almost seems like a Bioware answer to blind Chantry hate by fans: "Oh, you don't like the Chantry? Yeah, they do some unsavory things in DA:O. Well, choose between that and a possessed dude who's going to kill them all. Have fun with that choice, guys. :devil:"

#5090
Black-Xero

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After seeing the Anders spoiler thread,it had me worried that I now can't have both Anders or Seb.What a shame as they both look like great characters.Oh well,guess it's time for Seb to leave.Down with the Chantry!

My warrior will do the opposite.

Modifié par Black-Xero, 06 mars 2011 - 04:08 .


#5091
Dante Angelo

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Justice was transformed because of Anders' hatred, let's not forget that.

Ya but in Awakening Justice tells Anders he should rise against the chantry to which Anders replies its not worth getting killed over( or something along those lines)

I got confused about that too. Awakening Anders seems like the type to defy the chantry and templars, but never hate. He too seemed to believe in the maker and Andraste and he was overall, a kindly character.  He even said so himself something along the lines of 'The Circle NEEDS the Chantry'. when you get a quest from Wynne in Awakening.

I think that Anders always had a deep hatred for the chantry but he didn't act upon those feelings because he didn't want to get killed. I also think that Justice didn't think Anders had that hatred in him which later caused Justice to become Vengeance. If Anders destroys the chantry but then gets seperated from Vengeance I believe Anders will feel great remorse and probably go into a severe depression.

#5092
The Elder King

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Justice was transformed because of Anders' hatred, let's not forget that.

Ya but in Awakening Justice tells Anders he should rise against the chantry to which Anders replies its not worth getting killed over( or something along those lines)

I got confused about that too. Awakening Anders seems like the type to defy the chantry and templars, but never hate. He too seemed to believe in the maker and Andraste and he was overall, a kindly character.  He even said so himself something along the lines of 'The Circle NEEDS the Chantry'. when you get a quest from Wynne in Awakening.


That's what I don't understand. He's completely different from DAA.
I wonder, if we don't help him with his quests to "help him to divide Justice from him", he will succeds in blowing up the Chantry? Could the rivarly change him (as Hepler's post suggests)? If not, the new system became pretty useless with Anders. He'll do what he wants anyway.

#5093
FASherman

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You guys getting all upset about the lies and betrayal. Here'r a good explaination of another way to look at it: http://www.dragonage...-yet.62/#post-149

Modifié par FASherman, 06 mars 2011 - 04:08 .


#5094
LilyasAvalon

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My morality make kick in last moment even if I romance Anders at this rate. ._.

Poor Chantry babies... stupid templars.

#5095
The Elder King

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FASherman wrote...

You guys getting all upset about the lies and betrayal. Here'r a good explaination of another way to look at it: http://www.dragonage...-yet.62/#post-149


It's not completely true. Rivarly chan change things in an extent. I think, for example, that if we choose the rivarly path in full Isabela will agree on handing the relic to the Qunari. Otherwise, if the rivarly doesn't change anything, it's pretty lame.

#5096
LilyasAvalon

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hhh89 wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Dante Angelo wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Justice was transformed because of Anders' hatred, let's not forget that.

Ya but in Awakening Justice tells Anders he should rise against the chantry to which Anders replies its not worth getting killed over( or something along those lines)

I got confused about that too. Awakening Anders seems like the type to defy the chantry and templars, but never hate. He too seemed to believe in the maker and Andraste and he was overall, a kindly character.  He even said so himself something along the lines of 'The Circle NEEDS the Chantry'. when you get a quest from Wynne in Awakening.


That's what I don't understand. He's completely different from DAA.
I wonder, if we don't help him with his quests to "help him to divide Justice from him", he will succeds in blowing up the Chantry? Could the rivarly change him (as Hepler's post suggests)? If not, the new system became pretty useless with Anders. He'll do what he wants anyway.

Apparently, the quests just end as uncompleted and he blows it up anyway with rivallary gain.

#5097
Rinji the Bearded

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I'm not calling you a liar~ Just don't lie to me~ ♫

That song is becoming more and more relevant.

#5098
LilyasAvalon

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hhh89 wrote...

FASherman wrote...

You guys getting all upset about the lies and betrayal. Here'r a good explaination of another way to look at it: http://www.dragonage...-yet.62/#post-149


It's not completely true. Rivarly chan change things in an extent. I think, for example, that if we choose the rivarly path in full Isabela will agree on handing the relic to the Qunari. Otherwise, if the rivarly doesn't change anything, it's pretty lame.

It's got a mild point though. Ultimately 'Trust no one.'.

I would like to deny this, but what we've speculated so far about companions that can leave you, it isn't overly surprising.

#5099
Ryzaki

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LOL.

The Chantry is bull. don't blame them? They control the templars, the created the circle. They are at fault.
If they were so concerned about Mages well being regulations would've been put in place long ago, they wouldn't string their templars out on lyrium and a lot of the anti mage BS wouldn't have happened. 

Especially that dragging children never to be seen again by their parents nonsense I see the reason for needing mages contained. But for them being cutoff? No excuse. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mars 2011 - 04:18 .


#5100
arsonic

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Chignon wrote...

arsonic wrote...

I don't think she expected it, but I think she can see why. But it's not a black and white moral decision, that's for sure. It actually made me think about my Origins characters- my Cousland's idea of justice was killing Howe, she executed Loghain and Jowan, made Harrowmont king, would've probably killed the Architect. My Amell let Jowan go free twice, made Bhelen king, spared the Architect, did the Dark Ritual without blinking because "magic is magic". Like someone said, if Anders, say, saved my sibling from dying in the Deep Roads, had been a good friend throughout the whole time I'd known him, and then destroyed the head of the organization oppressing my kind? It would be a way different response than, say, a warrior Hawke who thought mages were okay but needed to be watched, who maybe was in love with Fenris. The "right" thing to do is going to be different depending how you're playing it, and I dig that.

The lying...that, I do have a problem with. If we're such good friends/LI's I would be hurt and angry that he didn't trust me and that he tricked me into doing something, whether I agreed with it or not. But if I did agree, maybe I could decide that the end justified the means. Damn you Bioware. CHOICES<_<


The choice not being black and white doesn't condone his actions nor is it a justifications for what he has undoubtly done. Being a good friend up to that point or saving Hawke's siblings from the Blight doesn't somehow "even" it out, either. His actions are horrifying regardless.


I'm going to quote it again because it obviously needs to be:


St Mael wrote...

I find it weird how people are still ignorantly raging against the chantry and have impregnated into their heads the idea that they will have it burn in their playthroughs.

I also finished the game and I want to inform you people that the game lore depicts the chantry as a completely different faction than the templars. The game is all about mages vs. templars and not mages vs. chantry.

After finishing the game I noticed that the chantry, through Elthina, was the only voice of reason within the whole cluster**** between the templars and the mages. The Grand Cleric never showed support to Meredith, thus proving the templar - chantry relation completely irrelevant, on the contrary she did voice her sympathy regarding the terrible situation of the mages when prompted in conversation.

Thus I find it very disconcerting that the chantry is still the one organization that truly suffers from everything that happens. Both Orsino and Meredith were proven in the end to be rotten to core while Elthina was the only truly decent one, and yet she was killed and the chantry destroyed because of that idiot Anders. I still can't believe what a douche he was and how he could do something so terrible. Now I really hate his character, I couldn't find myself not to go against the mages with the Rite of Anulment after that. Thankfully I was able to stick it to Meredith too in the end.


In conclusion I just wanted to point out that the Chantry is not evil at all and that people should reconsider their attitudes regarding it, no matter whether they choose the mages or templars path to go through a few levels when the story gets near the end (the whole thing is just a game mechanic anyway and both choices lead to the same thing).


It doesn't to you, that's my point. To other people, it might. Your character obviously wouldn't agree or condone it, I can see one of mine doing so for the reasons mentioned.

As far as the Chantry/Templar thing goes, I'd have to see this game lore myself to make the full decision. Alistair mentions frequently in his conversations that the Chantry controls Templars (he even mentions that the High Cleric would be "spitting fire" if she found that templar in Howe's dungeon), controls the Lyrium trade because of this, the Chant of Light is apparently the basis for keeping mages under watch by Templars, and Gaider has said that the Chantry would be the ones to deny the Mage Boon. So unless all that changed, the Chantry is still in charge of Templars/keeping mages on lock down. I think it makes it a much harder, and worse choice, that the High Cleric is compassionate, but in Anders mind, she would be responsible.