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[Rinji the Bearded]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I think I must just avoid installing exiled prince when I get my game for my first playthrough, to avoid having to lose Sebastian. T_T

To be honest, I can see why Seb would leave no matter what now.  It's tragic... But if I were him, I wouldn't ever forgive Anders either.  Seb was extremely close to the Grand Cleric.  It's like losing a mother.

[LilyasAvalon]

UndercoverDoctor wrote...

But I want Anders and Sebastian!

I know! It's just awful! I was deciding between these two for my LI, and now this has just made eveything harder.

[Wissenschaft]

Zabaniya wrote...

tankgirly wrote...

Now I am getting nervous, if I post summary of this thread, will I be banned?

I believe as long as you do it here and it's not an outside link, such as streams and videos, it will be allowed.  Edit: Rinji put it better than I did.


In regards to the Anders spoiler... this reminds me way too much of the terrorist attacks of 9/11 and Oklahoma City.  But... we'll have to see ALL the circumstances leading up to it.

I might be able to understand if there are events leading up to this but if Anders has planned this out and kept it secret..........No, I can not forgive him.

How many innocent people were slain simply to force a war between the Templar and Circle. Targeting innoncent people with violence to force a political action is the definition of Terrorism. 

Oh Anders............god, this will be such a sad momement. I wonder if there an option to put him in jail for life rather than murder him. But then again, we know from Awakening that hes greating at escaping so.........

Argg..........I wish there was an option to just grab Anders and shake him violently while screaming:

WHY WHY WHY  WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY

[LilyasAvalon]

RinjiRenee wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I think I must just avoid installing exiled prince when I get my game for my first playthrough, to avoid having to lose Sebastian. T_T

To be honest, I can see why Seb would leave no matter what now.  It's tragic... But if I were him, I wouldn't ever forgive Anders either.  Seb was extremely close to the Grand Cleric.  It's like losing a mother.

I can see why too, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. T_T

[Abhorash]

he target the chantry, they rule the templars

[Rinji the Bearded]

xJuliax wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

@slumlord722

He has forced change -- not just used magic to kill innocent people. Condemn him, condone him... he has forced a change -- a change that I think needed to happen since DA:O.

He just made things worse for the mages, imo. When people hear that a mage was responsible for the Chantry blowing up and the death of innocent people inside what do you think their reaction will be? They will just be even MORE wary of mages as a result of this.

Blowing up a building full of people to make a statement is reprehensible. I'm so sad that Anders went that far.

But hearing that a Templar was dabbling in the forbidden magic as well?  And from what we hear from Cassandra... the Chantry IS falling apart.  He DID cause a change.

And how many innocents would continue to be killed at the rate things were going before that?   On both sides?  Mages ripped from their families... Templars becoming slaves to the Chantry through lyrium... Yes.  Anders did a very damnable thing, and I do agree with that.  But he forced the issue when no one else would.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 07 mars 2011 - 05:02 .

[arsonic]

RinjiRenee wrote...

@slumlord722

He has forced change -- not just used magic to kill innocent people. Condemn him, condone him... he has forced a change -- a change that I think needed to happen since DA:O.

@Mr. Gaider

Understood.

Yeah, there are going to be endless arguments over Anders. People are going to have extremely different responses to that choice, which I think speaks to the power of the scene. I think what changed it for me personally was that Anders was not gleeful, or even really triumphant about the scene. When his Hawke told him their blood was on his head, he knew that. He had thought about the consequences and the guilt and decided it still needed to happen. He wasn't in it for glory- even when he said he would go into history, it wasn't for being a hero or for being the savior of the mages. He wanted to be the one who had made something change. Whether that change needed to happen, and whether it needed to happen the way it did...those will be the debate points. 

(Side note: I did look because people were saying there were children and families and such in there, but all I saw was templars and the High Cleric. This isn't to say they were all horrible people who deserved to die, but I know people were mentioning that. That he seemed to target it when only Chantry personnel were around is slightly more Anders-saving-refugees-esque.)

[Sargerus]

omg the next 24 hours will be TORTURE

[Meer]

RinjiRenee wrote...

But hearing that a Templar was dabbling in the forbidden magic as well?  And from what we hear from Cassandra... the Chantry IS falling apart.  He DID cause a change.

Somehow I doubt that his actions are the only change.  I think his actions might have been a catalyst for something very bad...perhaps giving that dabbling Templar a chance to take over completely.  In fact, if  you look at it in that light,  the one causing the change is Meredith...  And Anders killed people that were on his side...the Reverend Mother agrees with the changes that need to come between Mages and Templars.

[Sargerus]

omg the wait is killing me, the next 24 hours will be TORTURE

[FASherman]

David Gaider wrote...
I never said he obtained it illegally. However he obtained it, suspicious or not, the game hasn't been released yet. If we shut down sites where people are posting content they shouldn't have yet, we'll certainly do so here on our own forums. I'm not going to argue about it further.

Your issue is with your distributors, not with people who obtained the goods for which they paid, is it not? You have the right to police the content of your site as you see fit, but outside of this site, freedom of speech still takes precedence.

[Browneye_Vamp84]

Sargerus wrote...

omg the next 24 hours will be TORTURE

i have to find a way to get my mind off of the game.... SOme HOw...

[Cat Fancy]

Well, I guess the forums are done freaking out.

Trophonius wrote...

@umwhatyousay Well then, we can agree to disagree. Anders could've done something less drastic to prove his point, but he didn't. Why is that? Because Meredith and the templars weren't willing to look past the so called mage "rage". She was censuring/rebuking mages and is obviously the paradigm of templar absolutism. FFS, listen to her alternative. She invokes the Right of Annulment to execute EVERY mage, regardless of whether or not they're innocent. How is that less malign than what Anders committed? Condoning genocide is something I can't agree with.

Neither can I. That's why I said I'd side with the mages. Anders is still likely going to be on the recieving end of some stabbing. He sucks pretty hard, too, and I doubt I'll see anything in the game that'll make his actions seem like anything other than those of a crazy terrorist. I mean, he WANTED to force a situation where there could be no compromise. Anders is all, "Race war! Race war!" and I'm all, "whatevs, guy."

But yes, agree to disagree.

RinjiRenee wrote...

I
know, right?  Punish Anders.  She just seemed to use his crime to
condemn all mages -- that is NOT justice.  And Orsino ... you can see
his cowardice as soon as she threw that Right of Annulment out.

Girl, what? Wouldn't you be afraid of someone with the power to kill you and a whole bunch like you threatening to do just that? And wouldn't you pissed at the guy who took action to ensure that this happened?

David Gaider wrote...
Posting spoilers here is fine. If you
people wish to spoil yourselves and complain about things you don't yet
know the context to, knock yourselves out. So long as the details are
kept contained to this particular thread, it's not an issue.

Aww, that's just how we do! :happy:I'm sure we'll be freaking and whining just as much once we have the context. That's just who we are, good sir. I am sorry that it bums you out.

But blood tragedies do the same for me. smiles.

[Wissenschaft]

Great, change.......but a change for what? Complete Chaos? The circle free to do whatever they want so all of Thedas can be like Tevinter?

I don't think I can side with the templars at all unless during the game we get plenty of evidence that there are blood mages in the circle.

heck, we already know that the templars are right, the circle is full of blood mages. I'm just not sure our character would know that at the time of this decision.

[Abhorash]

Not all blood mages are not evil plus mages only want freedom

[leggywillow]

SurelyForth wrote...

Goddammit, Anders.

Quoting this, because it pretty much sums up all of my thoughts.  I have been a huge Anders fangirl since Awakening, and I really do appreciate him being given a much more complicated role than "charming comic relief".  I even respect the writers for giving him a role that isn't easy for the players to justify to our consciences.  But...   Goddamnit, Anders!  Cannibalism and now terrorism?  Did you EAT Ser Pounce-a-Lot too?!  Come on, man!  This is not going to stop me from romancing you hard and fangirling all over you, but COME ON DUDE!

I have a strong suspicion that "Goddamnit Anders" is going to be Hawke's motto and most frequently-heard saying.

And yes, Carver is extremely sexy in his GW armor.

[Rinji the Bearded]

umwhatyousay wrote...


Girl, what? Wouldn't you be afraid of someone with the power to kill you and a whole bunch like you threatening to do just that? And wouldn't you pissed at the guy who took action to ensure that this happened?

Haha, and this may be metagaming on my part... but we do see that Orsino had much more sinister things in mind in the end.  If Harvester doesn't scream "I am plotting hostile takeover," I don't know what does.  He also supported in killing Mama Hawke apparently.

Of course, my Mage Hawke is going to be full on rage at that point.

And terrorism... has that not been the way of the Chantry all this time?  Incite fear in the people so the Mages will never be trusted?  Terrorism has so many definitions... but that definitely is one of them.

But to fight terrorism with terrorism?  Oh, I do so love moral arguments.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 07 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[Wissenschaft]

Abhorash wrote...

Not all blood mages are not evil plus mages only want freedom

Tell that to the Teviter mages who rule that land.

[Corephyfish]

I think we'll be seeing plenty of 'Goddamnit Anders' Signatures soon...

[InHarmsWay]

I just love how grey some of the morality is in this game.

Frankly, something drastic needed to be done. Mage's were treated like second-class citizens. They cannot hold title, cannot have a family, and cannot be in contact with their family. This is abhorrent.

@Wissenschaft
Why are you arguing extremes? People are not saying do whatever you want with magic. We argue that the oppression the chantry instills upon Mages is unjust. Mages can police themselves.

I think I'm going to let Anders live. He started this war. He's going to help me end it.

[lx_theo]

Seeing if I can finish my fourth playthrough of DA: O (two of the past three I played all the post-origins expansions content) over this next day... Good thing I have a project to work on as well.

[Abhorash]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Abhorash wrote...

Not all blood mages are not evil plus mages only want freedom

Tell that to the Teviter mages who rule that land.

This is not tevinter...THIS IS SPARTAAAA

[Rinji the Bearded]

slydfoxxy wrote...

I think we'll be seeing plenty of 'Goddamnit Anders' Signatures soon...

"Godammnit Anders, you Brilliant Bastard," perhaps. 

[arsonic]

Neurotoxin wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

But hearing that a Templar was dabbling in the forbidden magic as well?  And from what we hear from Cassandra... the Chantry IS falling apart.  He DID cause a change.

Somehow I doubt that his actions are the only change.  I think his actions might have been a catalyst for something very bad...perhaps giving that dabbling Templar a chance to take over completely.  In fact, if  you look at it in that light,  the one causing the change is Meredith...  And Anders killed people that were on his side...the Reverend Mother agrees with the changes that need to come between Mages and Templars.

In Anders' mind though, she hasn't done anything, she's just said it's what she supports to Hawke/perhaps others. (I'm guessing, obviously.) And Meredith should be under her commands and order, so what Meredith does is, through association, what the High Cleric is condoning. So perhaps he should go after Meredith, but if he gets rid of a Knight-Commander, does that change anything? Probably not, they'll just promote a new one. Of course, we don't know firsthand what the High Cleric does or believes, we just have second-hand accounts- her personality and actions could definitely color people's opinions. But to Anders, I think he thinks it's just lip service. What are the chances of the High Cleric saying "OK, we're freeing all the mages from the towers and disbanding the Templars. I know I've been letting the whole lyrium thing go on, and allowed Meredith to be oppressive, and I may have even denied the Warden's boon to let the Fereldan Circle be free, but seriously. We're done. Go mages."? In his mind, he cut off the oppression at its source.

(Note: I'm not trying to be mean or argumentative, I just imagine that's Anders' POV. It's hard to debate and discuss on the Internet, I'm always afraid I'm going to make someone mad )

[EnchantedEyes1]

 Damn! Spoiled myself real good there in regards to Anders. I had a feeling returning companions were going to be a problem for me because of my many play throughs of Awakenings... Grew too attached to Anders and not sure if I will be able to approach this as objectively as I would like. No way can I knife him...