121 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
No, as of this momnet 56% of the voters think Cerberus is inept and 44% think it's evil.

May have something to do with the both option accidentally missing. 

Why do you think it's accidental?

[AdmiralCheez]

It's 2185. At this point, I think most professionally-minded people would have stopped caring.

Honsetly, Zulu, this is stupid.  Even for you.  You are trolling too hard.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 28 février 2011 - 01:58 .

[Imbackagain]

Once you've been with an asari it doesn't matter.

[Dean_the_Young]

Imbackagain wrote...

Once you've been with an asari it doesn't matter.

"Ah, yes, Asari sex..."

[AdmiralCheez]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Imbackagain wrote...

Once you've been with an asari it doesn't matter.

"Ah, yes, Asari sex..."

Filing this under my "personal canon."

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

It's 2185. At this point, I think most professionally-minded people would have stopped caring.

1. You never know.

2. Saying people will stop caring about gays is like saying that people will stop caring about sex.

3. From the scientific PoV, homosexual behavior is:
      (a) social phenomenon not exclusively dependent on one's genes.
      ( becomes more socially acceptable in highly developed and densely populated areas.

The point latter point suggests that although on ME's Earth homosexual behavior would indeed be commonplace, it would quickly become stigmatized in the colonies.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Honsetly, Zulu, this is stupid.  Even for you.  You are trolling too hard.

Thanks for your appreciation.

[Wulfram]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

It's 2185. At this point, I think most professionally-minded people would have stopped caring.

The way Kaidan seems to stumble over calling FemShep a lesbian seems to imply there's still some taboo there.

[Commander Kurt]

I think after the tragic fate of the 1st Battalion Transvestite Brigade in 2138 (rest in peace, brave souls), gay men are still barred from holding positions where combat is expected.
Completely unfair, of course, but that's people for you.

[AdmiralCheez]

Wulfram wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

It's 2185. At this point, I think most professionally-minded people would have stopped caring.

The way Kaidan seems to stumble over calling FemShep a lesbian seems to imply there's still some taboo there.

It seemed like he was more embarassed that he hadn't noticed/she wasn't interested in him.

Also,consider the limitations put on what you can and can't say/do in a videogame due to current societal constraints.  Even though it's logical to assume that in the future, people would have gotten the f*ck over it, we're still a bit queasy about the subject today.

Finally, note I said "professionally-minded," as in most employers will have learned to gloss over the subject so they aren't sued for discrimination or something.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Kelly Chambers.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 28 février 2011 - 02:30 .

[Whatever42]

Most people appear to have a bias against gays because of either religious or cultural reasons. In this modern era (and in the post-post-modern ME universe), I can think of no pragmatic rationale for discrimination against gays.

TIM is highly intelligent, ruthless, and pragmatic. He may have questionable judgement but I haven't yet seen him act irrationally based on a religious or cultural motivation. In fact, he appears to actively reject cultural norms and thinks independently. I see nothing in his character that would suggest such irrational behaviour.

[Rune-Chan]

I can't see why they would care, they are having a difficult enough time already finding supporters, they are hardly a large organisation.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Most people appear to have a bias against gays because of either religious or cultural reasons. In this modern era (and in the post-post-modern ME universe), I can think of no pragmatic rationale for discrimination against gays.

TIMis highly intelligent, ruthless, and pragmatic. He may have questionable judgement but I haven't yet seen him act irrationally basedon a religious or cultural motivation. In fact, he appears to actively reject cultural norms and thinks independently. I see nothing in his character that would suggest such irrational behaviour.

This is also true.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 28 février 2011 - 03:14 .

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Kekkis wrote...

Cerberus project policy is "Don´t know, don´t care".

Whos smart idea was it to build double-sized obsolete Normandy, anyway? First thing you have to do with your new spaceship is to upgrade it...

Does anyone know any Cerberus project that does not end to a disaster?

Most of them, actually.

... which reminds me of another poll.

and that reminds me of a handy thread

[Orcvader]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Openning a can of worms here, but let's see how long it lasts.

So what do you think is Cerberus' policy on gays (specifically, male homosexuals)?

We sure know that the organization employs many, er... non-liberal individuals. But at the same time "the ends justify the means" stance should preclude TIM from passing up a good "operative material" if he sees one, just because of sexual orientation (same as he doesn't shy away from working with aliens when necessary). However, openly employing gays alongside all the conservative folks would create some unwanted tension, in the very least.

Anyway, the POLL.

It's the 23rd century (I believe)... "Conservative" doesn't mean sexist or racists within own species anymore.

[Whatever42]

Orcvader wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Openning a can of worms here, but let's see how long it lasts.

So what do you think is Cerberus' policy on gays (specifically, male homosexuals)?

We sure know that the organization employs many, er... non-liberal individuals. But at the same time "the ends justify the means" stance should preclude TIM from passing up a good "operative material" if he sees one, just because of sexual orientation (same as he doesn't shy away from working with aliens when necessary). However, openly employing gays alongside all the conservative folks would create some unwanted tension, in the very least.

Anyway, the POLL.

It's the 23rd century (I believe)... "Conservative" doesn't mean sexist or racists within own species anymore.

To adapt Terry Pratchet to the ME universe:

Racism was not a problem anymore because -- what with batarians and krogan and so on -- speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.

[Orcvader]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Orcvader wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Openning a can of worms here, but let's see how long it lasts.

So what do you think is Cerberus' policy on gays (specifically, male homosexuals)?

We sure know that the organization employs many, er... non-liberal individuals. But at the same time "the ends justify the means" stance should preclude TIM from passing up a good "operative material" if he sees one, just because of sexual orientation (same as he doesn't shy away from working with aliens when necessary). However, openly employing gays alongside all the conservative folks would create some unwanted tension, in the very least.

Anyway, the POLL.

It's the 23rd century (I believe)... "Conservative" doesn't mean sexist or racists within own species anymore.

To adapt Terry Pratchet to the ME universe:

Racism was not a problem anymore because -- what with batarians and krogan and so on -- speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.

From discworld?

[Commander Kurt]

You guys truly believe that people won't hate on minorities/weaker groups 200 years from now?

That's... really nice, actually.

[Whatever42]

Orcvader wrote...
From discworld?

Yup.

Commander Kurt wrote...

You guys truly believe that people won't hate on minorities/weaker groups 200 years from now?

That's... really nice, actually.

I don't believe the discussion was about whether there was hate in the future. Just because there is hate 200 years from now does mean TIM hates on a particular group.

[Zulu_DFA]

Machines Are Us wrote...

I can't see why they would care, they are having a difficult enough time already finding supporters, they are hardly a large organisation.

That's not true. The major factor limiting the grouth is not the lack of supporters, but the ultra-high standards for recruitment. Cerberus it's not exaclty a retail chain.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Most people appear to have a bias against gays because of either religious or cultural reasons. In this modern era (and in the post-post-modern ME universe), I can think of no pragmatic rationale for discrimination against gays.

Most people have bias against gays because they found their sexual practices unnatural in the very least. And it's only culture that may or may not dictated to keep that bias down. However, under certain conditions, such as social isolation and excessive pressure, let alone danger to life, cultural conditioning tends to give way to the chimpanzee living in every last one of us. That's aside from that fact that many people (who can be quite professional at what they do and therefore valuable) would never bother with subduing their own chimpanzee to the societal norm in the first place.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

TIM is highly intelligent, ruthless, and pragmatic. He may have questionable judgement but I haven't yet seen him act irrationally based on a religious or cultural motivation. In fact, he appears to actively reject cultural norms and thinks independently. I see nothing in his character that would suggest such irrational behaviour.

That's right, and although I think TIM himself is not prejudiced against gays, would he pass up an operative who is? Same as with the racism thing. TIM is not a primitive xenophobe himself, but he obviously condones recruiting such people into the organization.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 février 2011 - 04:34 .

[Whatever42]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Most people have bias agains gays because they found their sexual practices unnatural in the very least. And it's only culture that may or may not dictated to keep that bias down. However, under certain conditions, such as social isolation and excessive pressure, let alone danger to life, cultural conditioning tends to give way to the chimpanzee living in every last one of us. That's aside from that fact that many people (who can be quite professional at what they do and therefore valuable) would never bother with subduing their own chimpanzee to the societal norm in the first place.

Well, if we were natural, we'd be sitting in a tree right now flinging our feces at each other. Besides, homosexuality is practiced among other primates species. I don't think we can make the leap that humans have a natural aversion to homosexuality.

That's right, and although I think TIM himself is not prejudiced against gays, would he pass up an operative who is?Same as with the racism thing. TIM is not a primitive xenophobe himself, but he obviously condones recruiting such people into the organization.

I think TIM would recruit a cannibal if that person helped TIM meet a goal.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 28 février 2011 - 04:41 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Most people have bias against gays because they found their sexual practices unnatural in the very least. And it's only culture that may or may not dictated to keep that bias down. However, under certain conditions, such as social isolation and excessive pressure, let alone danger to life, cultural conditioning tends to give way to the chimpanzee living in every last one of us. That's aside from that fact that many people (who can be quite professional at what they do and therefore valuable) would never bother with subduing their own chimpanzee to the societal norm in the first place.

Well, if we were natural, we'd be sitting in a tree right now flinging our feces at each other.

Not true. It's in human nature to be curious, inquisitive, inventive and kill peers with things more solid than feces to get ahead. But it still is very much in human nature that the higher-ups sh*t on the rank-and-file, even if only figuratively speaking.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Besides, homosexuality is practiced among other primates species. I don't think we can make the leap that humans have a natural aversion to homosexuality.

That's right, homosexuality is, in fact, very natural. I only used the innacurate word to avoid harsher definitions. And if you look at the "homosexuality in other primates" (which is an oxymoron, BTW) more closely, you'll understand more about why the inner chimpanzee (the one that is also naturally greedy, lazy and xenophobic) is prejudiced against it. (If you don't happen to have a BBC documentary on the subject at hand, think of how it works among jail inmates - same thing.)

BTW, if the aversion to homosexuality wasn't natural, where would it have come from to culture and religion? I mean, it's not like the Pope called his most trusted cardinals and said: "Yesterday I've got an e-mail from the Boss and He wants us to hate gays from now on. Pass the word to the flock."

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

That's right, and although I think TIM himself is not prejudiced against gays, would he pass up an operative who is?Same as with the racism thing. TIM is not a primitive xenophobe himself, but he obviously condones recruiting such people into the organization.

I think TIM would recruit a cannibal if that person helped TIM meet a goal.

But he wouldn't want that cannibal to eat other Cerberus staffers or even let them know about this new trusted employee's gastronomic preferences.

Also: think Morinth & Shepard. They have their little conspiracy going to not upset the rest of the team. Basically, "Don't tell" policy at work.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 février 2011 - 05:14 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Openning a can of worms here, but let's see how long it lasts.

So what do you think is Cerberus' policy on gays (specifically, male homosexuals)?

We sure know that the organization employs many, er... non-liberal individuals. But at the same time "the ends justify the means" stance should preclude TIM from passing up a good "operative material" if he sees one, just because of sexual orientation (same as he doesn't shy away from working with aliens when necessary). However, openly employing gays alongside all the conservative folks would create some unwanted tension, in the very least.

Anyway, the POLL.

If it's human-human, they would be fine with it...
Though knowing cerberus, they would experiment on us.

[Smeelia]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

BTW, if the aversion to homosexuality wasn't natural, where would it have come from to culture and religion? I mean, it's not like the Pope called his most trusted cardinals and said: "Yesterday I've got an e-mail from the Boss and He wants us to hate gays from now on. Pass the word to the flock."

It's often about population control, that's the reason that Catholicism and other Christian faiths introduced rules against homosexuality.  There may also have been an aspect of trying to distance themselves from others that had went before by proclaiming that what others say is wrong in the eyes of the "true god(s)".  A lot of cultures in the past accepted homosexuality and in some cases encouraged it (including powerful and successful warrior cultures, some of whom believed that it encouraged a stronger bond between soldiers).

[Whatever42]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
BTW, if the aversion to homosexuality wasn't natural, where would it have come from to culture and religion? I mean, it's not like the Pope called his most trusted cardinals and said: "Yesterday I've got an e-mail from the Boss and He wants us to hate gays from now on. Pass the word to the flock."

Why not? I won't turn this into a thread about the history of the Catholic Church but there are lots of arbitrary decisions there out of left field. Cultural evolution usually has some underlying cause but that evolution is not alway based on accurate information or correct reasoning.

For example, in many species males want to control their reproduction but females often are the ones who control it. However, sometimes males resort to coercion but only in stressful circumstances.

However, in a society where males hold inordinate power though complex social structures, they can control reproduction in a way that they never could in a more primitive state. They can also control the reproduction of their own offspring, which is also not natural. It may be born out of a natural impulse (to continue one's genetic line) but the specific behaviour would never occur in nature.

So if an offspring showed little interest in reproduction then that might be regarded as bad and the dominant male, using unnatural social structures, might villify that behaviour and force the offspring to reproduce. So while there is a basic primitave behaviour at the root of everything, the specific behaviours could be entirely cultural.

[Zulu_DFA]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So if an offspring showed little interest in reproduction then that might be regarded as bad and the dominant male, using unnatural social structures, might villify that behaviour and force the offspring to reproduce. So while there is a basic primitave behaviour at the root of everything, the specific behaviours could be entirely cultural.

The problem with that is that to fulfil the "reproductive duty" to the family, "the son" would need to spend very little time on it, while generally devoting himself to the lifestyle of his prefered choosing. However, this is equally unacceptable to "the patriarch" of the family. But, I really don't want to go into the technicalities here, so let's get back to Cerberus.

I take it some people think that the problem will be nonexistent in the 22nd century. But that just sounds like wishful thinking. So can somebody explain why Cerberus wouldn't have such a policy, seeing how lawsuits about discrimination are of little concern to TIM?