88 réponses à ce sujet

[Berkilak]

 I would like to take this opportunity to thank BioWare from freeing the tank role from the sword'n boarders. A quick glance over the Warrior skills shows this to be true. Two-handed tanks are finally workable without being gimped!

Let's take a look at the Warrior trees, shall we?

Firstly, the most obvious - Weapon and Shield. Yeah, there are a few defensive talents in here, at the cost of damage. But the majority of the talents are focussed on crowd control, tossing lots of enemies around, and positioning them.

Secondly, Two-handed. Note that not a SINGLE talent in this tree increases damage. It merely provides the best AoE skills for the class, which is just as effective at keeping aggro as it is at doing damage.

Thirdly and fourthly, Defender and Warmonger. Here are your actual tanking talents. Defender focuses and damage mitigation, whether it be pure reduction or complete avoidance. Warmonger focuses on keeping the enemy's attention with a little bit of CC thrown in. Both synergize extremely well with either type of tank, although I believe that the 2hers will have the advantage due to the constant damage output that is only increased with more people near them. Keeping your enemies on you is of the utmost importance, and AoE skills further that.

Fifthly and lastly, Vanguard and Battlemaster. Battlemaster is your sustainability and buffing tree (even allowing you to transfer your tank/damage buffs to allies!) which helps to keep your stamina up and your companions effective. Vanguard is the only actual damage tree for the whole class - these are where you damage passives come into play, where the "increased damage" moves are located.

In short, the entire class is, on the whole, a lot more defensive that people seem to be reading into. While sword and board will always take less damage (and not by much), they have the weakness of not doing much in the way of AoE for aggro and damage. Who is your tank will be defined by the non-specific trees, being Defender and Warmonger. Your damage-focussed Warrior is only defined by their investment in Vanguard.

My personal plan? DPS/buffing focussed shield and weapon Hawke with Fenris as the true tank. Hawke will function as an offtank, and making sure to keep the adds off of the ranged and tossing as many of them as he can into the Fenris-centered AoE grinder as possible.

Again, thank you BioWare, for giving is so much more flexibility in our character builds than was allowed in DA:O.

[Ace Attorney]

The Sword and Board Warrior still is the better tank by quite the margin. The Damage mitigation and CC outweight any extra damage a 2H Warrior does for a Tank role. But the 2H is a better Tank than in Origins, that much is true.

[Berkilak]

T3hAnubis wrote...

The Sword and Board Warrior still is the better tank by quite the margin. The Damage mitigation and CC outweight any extra damage a 2H Warrior does for a Tank role. But the 2H is a better Tank than in Origins, that much is true.

Neither of us can make the argument that the margin is that wide. DA2 has shown itself to be a game that pumps out as many enemies at once. A dead enemy is one that isn't doing damage. While I'll concede that, for a single-boss encounter, a shield and weapon tank will outweigh a two-hander, those types of fights are shaping up to be the exception to the rule. It's all about battlefield management rather than statistical min-maxing.

[Rawrness13]

It is not a pre-requisite but you might want to have one in case you really wish to be the last one standing. What I have noticed however is that shielders now have less damage capacity than the 2H counterpart in terms of DPS. I remember that in DAO, shielders can deal more damage than 2H warriors in the long run. ^^

I agree. We are given far more flexibility in Dragon Age 2. ^^

[Covi]

I think you're underestimating the Weapon & Shield tree. Shield Defense reduces damage by 25%, Perception removes the penalty of being attacked from behind, and Safeguard protects the warrior from critical hits. Sure you can offtank as a 2h warrior, but there is a significant difference.

[Wissenschaft]

I bet extra AoE damage a 2h warrior can cause helps him keep argo a lot better. Just add Bravery.

[Ace Attorney]

Berkilak wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

The Sword and Board Warrior still is the better tank by quite the margin. The Damage mitigation and CC outweight any extra damage a 2H Warrior does for a Tank role. But the 2H is a better Tank than in Origins, that much is true.

Neither of us can make the argument that the margin is that wide. DA2 has shown itself to be a game that pumps out as many enemies at once. A dead enemy is one that isn't doing damage. While I'll concede that, for a single-boss encounter, a shield and weapon tank will outweigh a two-hander, those types of fights are shaping up to be the exception to the rule. It's all about battlefield management rather than statistical min-maxing.

Bolded part is exactly why S&S is better.

[Berkilak]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

The Sword and Board Warrior still is the better tank by quite the margin. The Damage mitigation and CC outweight any extra damage a 2H Warrior does for a Tank role. But the 2H is a better Tank than in Origins, that much is true.

Neither of us can make the argument that the margin is that wide. DA2 has shown itself to be a game that pumps out as many enemies at once. A dead enemy is one that isn't doing damage. While I'll concede that, for a single-boss encounter, a shield and weapon tank will outweigh a two-hander, those types of fights are shaping up to be the exception to the rule. It's all about battlefield management rather than statistical min-maxing.

Bolded part is exactly why S&S is better.

I won't argue that it's not better. I will, however, argue that a 2her makes a different kind of tank with their own advantages and not as great of disadvantages as people seem to be pushing.

[Ace Attorney]

Fenris may be a capable 2H Tank. His unique talent tree may make 2H Hawke tanks redundant. 
http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Fugitive

[AkiKishi]

The purpose of a tank is to soak damage and keep aggro. Your design is more off tank. Probably be fine for normal encounters, probably not so much for the nightmare bosses. Same principle as WoW things get more specialised as you move up.

S&S gives an extra equipment option and likely more enchant options.

I think perception and the skill that stops crits will be essential in higher levels.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 février 2011 - 05:14 .

[Rimfrost]

Thank you for the analysis. It shows that combat in da2 will be quite different. It seems you have better flexibility overall and that hopefully it's actually even more tactical.

[Sierra Crysis]

I'm confident that 2H tanks will be as good as S&S. I can forsee two-handed swords with significant benefits to evasion,defense, % to avoid and so on. They'll have less armor but I'll bet they have more defense in the long scheme of things akin to Death Knight tanks in WOW.

[Basheda]

Sierra Crysis wrote...
I can forsee two-handed swords with significant
benefits to evasion,defense, % to avoid and so on.

There are no 2H exclusive talents which provide evasion, defense aso. The only source can be your 2H sword and I don't think an single item will turn an warrior in a tank.

S&S will have Shield Defense and Shield Wall. That alone is -50% damage to all sources of damage. If you never need this -50% reduction on nightmare, than I would consider nightmare as too easy. Assault with Battery upgrade is also an spin attack with AE threat and only 15 seconds CD. Assault, Taunt (16 yards range upgrade) and Bravery (+extra threat) should be enough to hold all enemies in Bravery range.
You can open an fight without Shield Defense to get your charge closing attack. First charge + Assault grab an entire cluster of enemies. Second charge + Taunt binds an second cluster. Further charges are possible to gather strangers and if they are all on your tank than comes Shield Defense and you suffer -50% damage from the entire pack. One mage should be enough to heal an full speced S&S tank. I think the healer dont need to activate spirit healer abilities unless there is unavoidable AE damage to the group.

An 2H tank will force your healer much faster in spirit healer role (you loose an damage dealer) or you will need an second healer ... if the nightmare mode is well balanced.

Easy, normal and maybe hard can and should be tankable by an 2H tank but I hope this wont be enough for nightmare. Currently its only speculation but I hope for an nightmare mode which deserves this name.

Modifié par Basheda, 28 février 2011 - 06:21 .

[Shinimas]

Shield Wall is -50% to damage taken when fighting a boss. Can't touch that.

[SnowHeart1]

We'll see. For good or ill, the demo kind of illustrates the effectiveness of a S&S v. 2H for tanking (at least at low levels). I could have the whole party slaughtered except for Aveline, and she would just stand there, surrounding by 3 or 4 dragonspawn while she's going "stabby stabby" on the ogre. She...just...wouldn't...die. Anyway, based on what I'm seeing of DA2 so far, I'm going to first be trying to build a dps and battlefield control party rather than a durability party (if that makes any sense).

[halokitty]

The resistance to knock-downs is a pretty compelling case for a sword-and-shield tank. But in most cases I will still choose 2H simply because of the massive damage index. The crowds of baddies that showed up in DA2's demo mean I'd like to outright kill as many of them as I can as quickly as I can. Culling the horde with a pumped 2H warrior seems more useful than the ability to stand toe to toe and soak a few more points of damage with a shield tank.

[eqzitara]

2 hand Sword tank might be effective in that if you kill enemies faster you take less damage.
Overall I wouldnt be bringing a lone 2 hander warrior into Nightmare. 2-2handed warriors might be up to task but where is the fun in haveing 2 of the same?

[nisallik]

Also remember that healing has been nerfed in DA2... If you are taking too much damage as a 2 handed warrior, you might be eating dirt pretty quickly.

[Berkilak]

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that a 2h tank is just as good in Nightmare, when you're planning out every single stat point and controlling every single move to get the maximum effectiveness out of your party. Nightmare is meant to be played as optimally as possible.

As far as Casual-Hard goes, I think a 2h tank will do great.

No one is saying that 2h tanks are better. Just that they're actually usable.

[Clonedzero]

yeah i was looking at the warrior skills and saw that a 2handed warrior could end up tanking fairly well.

when it comes down to it though, the sword and shield warrior will be better at tanking single target creatures such as bosses (dragons, giant golums, godzilla, named people, ect.) while the 2handed warrior will be better at holding large groups of people together. which will be more valuable? im not sure. for my mage playthrough i was leaning on making carver a 2handed tank.

the 2 handed tank would be especially good at holding large groups so you can blast down your hard hitting AoE spells with your mage and rogue.

but in conclusion, my view on 2handed warrior tanks is viable but not optimal.

[AkiKishi]

Berkilak wrote...

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that a 2h tank is just as good in Nightmare, when you're planning out every single stat point and controlling every single move to get the maximum effectiveness out of your party. Nightmare is meant to be played as optimally as possible.

As far as Casual-Hard goes, I think a 2h tank will do great.

No one is saying that 2h tanks are better. Just that they're actually usable.

Anyone who can attract attention will do on anything except nightmare. All you have to do is spam AOEs over them.You won't really need to take any damage because you can just kill things faster.

[Selectric]

Rawrness13 wrote...


I agree. We are given far more flexibility in Dragon Age 2. ^^

I wholeheartedly disagree.  Flexibility in builds would mean we could make a rouge that casts illusion spells, or a mage that could use a crossbow, or a warrior that could dual-wield.  IMO, the classes are quite pigeonholed in to their "traditional" fantasy roles, with some space to specialize within those traditional roles.

To me, even more than the weak level design, this is my biggest beef with DA2.  Seriously considering waiting for awhile to purchase until after release to learn the extent of how disappointing DA2 is.  Maybe it won't be so bad, but I'm way more pessimistic than optimistic at this point.

[Adhin]

To be fair the 'Damage Resistance' of that isn't added onto Armor. So for example lets say you have 60% Armor and that 25% damage resist vs just the 60% Armor for a 2h. To a nice clear margin we'll say an enemy is doing 100 damage. The Weapon and Shielder using that sustained (lowering there damage, and making there attacks only hit 1, so severely killing there damage output). Would take 100 * 0.4 * 0.75 = 30 damage, where as the 2-hander would only be 100 * 0.4 = 40. So, even at 100 damage its only a 10 point difference overall. On the plus side 'Damage Resistance', unlike armor, effects all damage types (so elemental + physical) so in that its a bit extra useful. But that also means its factored in the same way that being it does your resistance, then damage resistance to take away from the total.

In the end that 25% people cling to thinking it'll be this big game changer? it just isn't that huge. The Shields real benefit is in the immunity to flanking, that's something a 2Hander can't really compete with though its ultimately not a huge deal with positioning and the 2-handers increased ability to push out a lot of damage.

Also 'Armor' cap is 80%, I think you can expect about 60-80% on average for both. So the OP has the right of it ultimately, its a bit more free-flowing as far as who can tank the best. Shield has an upper hand, for sure, but its not as extreme as it seems at first glance - its just do you want to kill quicker or survive a bit better ultimately.

[Adhin]

Healing also isn't as nerfed as folks like to cry out. It's ultimately more powerful on single use, it just has a longer cooldown to compensate. Greater Heal upgrade is 80% max HP. You got a warrior with 300 HP lets say, that's 240 HP heal. He hits 20-25% you use it hes back to full. Unless hes nearly auto-dying the timer should be up by then, and if its not a single heal potion can step-them out so you juggle the 2 timers.

Seriously, people make to big a deal out of stuff with out looking at the numbers.

[Atmosfear3]

2H tanks will be best for off-tanking normal mooks, even on normal. They have the best burst (for warrior) for eliminating multiple enemies at once. Once you get on a boss, I'd imagine you would want to have a shield on or let Aveline tank. Besides, all the really good tanking talents requires a huge investment of points, possibly making it so you have much less 2H abilities to use.