88 réponses à ce sujet

[colejossart]

Atmosfear3 said...
2H tanks will be best for off-tanking normal mooks, even on normal. They have the best burst (for warrior) for eliminating multiple enemies at once. Once you get on a boss, I'd imagine you would want to have a shield on or let Aveline tank. Besides, all the really good tanking talents requires a huge investment of points, possibly making it so you have much less 2H abilities to use.

Not necessarily. I'm not all that impressed with the three specializations. I came up with a tank build for a 2h warrior last night that looked pretty sick. It comes up to 25 talents altogether, which is the low end of the estimated final talents. And btw it focuses on the trees that the OP focused on. Here it is:

Passive Abilities:
Giant's Reach
Deep Reserves

Sustained Abilities:
Bravery
---Bravado
---Bravura
Elemental Aegis
---Elemental Shroud

Activated Abilities:
Mighty Blow
---Shattering Blow
---Killer Blow
Scythe
---Reaper
Whirlwind
---Tornado
---Cyclone
Stonewall
---Bulwark
Pommel Strike
---Pommel Blow
Taunt
---Bellow
Bolster
Second Wind
---Deep Breath
---Last Push

[Adhin]

Yeah to an extent I think there Atmosfear3 but I think that's kinda funny. All of the good tanking stuff for Shield is based off group stuff. the 25% resistance thing is designed to make it easier for a WnS to survive group fights as it. Immunity to flanking is only good with stuff behind you. Though immunity to critical hits I think will be at least somewhat useful. Though enemies critting a lot hasn't ever been much of an issue, even in DAO - they just rarely make monsters based off heavy or critting often.

Or at least, thats the impression I've heard/gotten by looking at tactics. That ability is setup, by default, to turn on/off based off number of enemies around the char. In the end I think I'd keep it on with bosses too just for the damage resist and chance hits are converted into glancing blows. 20% chance isn't to bad, that's just another form of damage mitigation though its a bit of a weaker one.

Either case, for a boss the 2H attacks dish out more damage then the WnS variant, WnS is more based around crowd control. So on a boss a 2H will still throw out more damage that way. Though there auto-attacks are almost Identical DPS wise, so that's barely a factor. 2H only shines, on base attack, in larger groups.

[Adhin]

@colejossart: That's nice and would work nice however 25 isn't the low end of estimated. lvl 25 is the 'nominal max' of the game. That being, doing everything you can do in the base game your looking at lvl 25 max, thats only 24 talents to use (lvl 1 is Pommel strike pre-bought). So unless they we get +5 skill points to use via books (hasn't been mentioned) or quest progression... Now personally I hope we do, but I ain't holding my breath for that.

Ultimately being in the best tank armor and having a solid amount of cunning and constituation (with enough str to meet said armor requirements) will give you your best chance at it. 2H or WnS aside.

-edit-
I  wanted to point out though that im gonna be attempting something a bit crazy. Going to try to start out on Nightmare right away for all the absurd stuff I  like in it (FF, bleed out at 10% hp and whatnot). Only tank will be my main char, whos going ot be a 2-handed warrior. Focusing almost entirely on Constitution. Health/Mana/Stamina doesn't gain per level, just by stat/item and since all regen (+insta-regen being healing) is % based, higher values nets better results.

Basically my idea is 1 str, 2 con per lvl till I hit STR requirements then probably +1 cun +2 con after that. +2 con for 20 lvls will end up being 50 base Con  at 21, not counting any bonus con you get at lvl 1. or 350 base HP not counting items. lot of reasons, game mechanic wise for that, but its mostly for RP reasons. Should be interesting.

Modifié par Adhin, 28 février 2011 - 08:20 .

[colejossart]

One of the Devs said that he was able to "heavily invest" in four trees and still have a couple of other talents to throw around.Assuming "heavily invested" is 6-7 talents per tree, you're looking at 24-28, plust the couple of talents, so realistically 26-30.

[colejossart]

@Adhin:
Sounds hard... lol. I was going to start off on Normal my first time through. My Nightmare playthrough is going to be a mage cause he can see the battlefield better than anyone else.

[Adhin]

Yeah a 'mage' would be 6-7 as far as heavily invested. Warriors though you can get all the base abilities (that being fully invested in, with out maxing) in 5-6. Peter seems to of set his tank hawke up as a 2h and a SnB. Something about using 2H for groups and SnB for some boss fights. Playing Hawke he said he did that for his rogue too, taking stuff in DW and Archery. Was kinda interesting, he said he basically used archery as a base and would, when things got closer would go through this combo of a few Archery stuff like pinning shot, lance, then switch to DW and pull off a full DW skill chain combo. Think that was mostly vs non-mooks of course.

Still I like to think of trying to get your build setup by 15. Instead of looking to far ahead into the 20s. That being, base abilities by 15 and start upgrading past that. My current Warrior build I was talking about is all thought out up to lvl 10, Rest of its going to be Berserk/Reaver and any ugprades I feel like I want with left-over points.

Kurn Hawke - Warrior / Berserker / Reaver
1: Pommel Strike - A
2: Mighty Blow - A
3: Taunt - A
4: Sunder - P
5: Giant's Reach - P
6: Bravery - S
7:
8:
9: Bravado - U (Bravery)
10: Bravura - U (Bravery)

As you can see its kinda open a bit, depending on the specializations and I want to have Bravura by lvl 10. If Nothing at 8 seems pressing ill save that and get the 2 upgrades at 9. But that skill is intergral to his style. Hopefully take Berserk at lvl 7 or close to it, also hoping that keeps some base hp regen like they had in DAO. And Reaver 15+, Passive + Devour asap. Pretty sure Devour is going to be a direct Attack (maybe even AoE based). So that'll be a semi-self heal outside of mage/potion use.

[Adhin]

Feel like I should clarify the top part a bit, Peter said he 'completed 4 chains'. Thats the 5-6, being 20-24 points in total, ignoring a lot of upgrades and only getting ones he 'really' needed for certain stuff. Thats why I don't really buy into the 'probably 30+ skill points to use' by end game thing.

[Atmosfear3]

Adhin wrote...

Yeah to an extent I think there Atmosfear3 but I think that's kinda funny. All of the good tanking stuff for Shield is based off group stuff. the 25% resistance thing is designed to make it easier for a WnS to survive group fights as it. Immunity to flanking is only good with stuff behind you. Though immunity to critical hits I think will be at least somewhat useful. Though enemies critting a lot hasn't ever been much of an issue, even in DAO - they just rarely make monsters based off heavy or critting often.

Or at least, thats the impression I've heard/gotten by looking at tactics. That ability is setup, by default, to turn on/off based off number of enemies around the char. In the end I think I'd keep it on with bosses too just for the damage resist and chance hits are converted into glancing blows. 20% chance isn't to bad, that's just another form of damage mitigation though its a bit of a weaker one.

Either case, for a boss the 2H attacks dish out more damage then the WnS variant, WnS is more based around crowd control. So on a boss a 2H will still throw out more damage that way. Though there auto-attacks are almost Identical DPS wise, so that's barely a factor. 2H only shines, on base attack, in larger groups.

I think immunity to crits will be a HUGE benefit considering we don't know how enemy stats scale with level. For all we know, enemies at lvl 15+ might sport 20% crit or more, meaning for every big hit we take, we may get staggered or knocked down if it was a crit.

[Adhin]

I can almost promise you thats not going to be true. Assassin or rogue likes may come with some crit bonuses, and bosses as well. But I highly, HIGHLY doubt your going to go up against a mook pack with each one doing 20% crit rating. That kinda ****s usually specialty stuff, also keep in mind everyone has a 0% crit rating at BASE. It's entirely 1% per Dex past 10. Monsters often have less in that kind of area then players do as a general rule, they'll get more HP then players in a few cases, and in NM there dmg will be up but it wont match players, there HP will definitely be well over, more so on bosses.

Monsters do not use same player skills (none of them actually) and go off a different basic setup, they do that for balance reasons. Giving monsters lot of crits can actually kill balance, it's more manageable and balanced to simply up there base damage.

And even with that in mind, Crit is at base 50% dmg boost, with Armor monster doing even 100 dmg, thats 150, vs that 60% armor its 60 dmg instead of 40. And due to how HP is handled now I can promise you, you wont be seeing 99% of monsters doing 100 base dmg. more like 30-40 on high end stuff. Though some special boss moves will probably get up there, 100-200 on some crazy 1 shot stuff your meant to avoid via getting behind walls and such.

[Gvaz]

2H from the demo were really lame. More AoE? not really needed. They need more utility, but rogues seem to have that this time around instead.

Yet another game I'm not using a 2H warrior because they're useless to me.

rogue/mage/snb/other (likely another mage or archer)

edit: you should be single target attacking foes, not just hitting whatever willy nilly

Modifié par GvazElite, 28 février 2011 - 08:49 .

[colejossart]

@Adhin:
I get what you're saying. I do think that it's likely that we'll be able to get 25 talents, though, which is what my 2H Tank is built around. But definitely going to try to get all the basics by 15, though.
So maybe something like this:
1)Pommel Strike
2)Mighty Blow
3)Taunt
4)Stonewall
5)Bolster
6)Giant's Reach
7)Bravery
8)Scythe
9)Bravado
10)Whirlwind
11)Bellow
12)Bravura
13)Second Wind
14)Deep Reserves
15)Shattering Blow

[Adhin]

Oh yeah I think 25 talent is a solid late game build, I don't doubt we wont be able to hit that mark. I'd recommend swapping Whirlwind for Bravura though, they ultimately fill the same kind of roll, but Bravura will give you better benefit in the long run. In most situations, Scythe can be used when you'd use Whirlwind for the time being.

5% dmg per mob (not counting first) isn't something to sneeze at, 5 dudes is 20%, 10 is 45%...it just gets crazier from there. I sware im gonna have to fight the urge to fight bosses directly and let the 10+ mobs up my dmg. I know that'll get me killed but I can promise you at SOME POINT, Ill get greedy and die horribly laughing maniacally at my massive dmg. Just add some Blood Frenzy dmg boost from low hp into that mix and...OOoh..mmm..

-edit-
@GvazElit: Peter Thomas has said, since the demo (which is an old build of the game, lots of its not up to snuff from the retail) 2H had a bit of an overhaul as far as direct damage effectiveness. So that should be less of a concern, in his DPS comparison (base dmg) vs a 2H warrior a WnS did 1.007 DPS (so .007 more dps), Rogue was at 2.95 times a 2H warrior. What that means, ultimately is that as long as your  hitting 3 targets, at base - not counting skills - a warrior will outdamage a Rogue every time. WnS can do that pretty effectively and a 2H can hit up to 4-5 at a time outclassing both in a group fight.

Modifié par Adhin, 28 février 2011 - 09:03 .

[NYG1991]

For a 2h tank on nightmare you also have to take friendly fire into account. Not only will you guy not be able to absorb as much damage but you'll be limited in your AoE attack to help him.

[Adhin]

Yeah, Tempest is friendly spell though, Merrill will be going full Primal (sorta) just because of that, that whole tree is actually friendly. Plus Chain Lightning takes advantage of Staggering warriors do. So the top thing in her AI Tactics is going to be 'if staggered, chain lightning!'.

Anyways to everyone in here about 2-handers, I was wrong its 2.7 times 2-hander not 2.95 for DW. Here's the qoute.

Peter Thomas wrote...

Damage numbers in that demo are very rough, not necessarily what is in the final game.

Per hit, bows do about 3.5x what a 2-handed weapon does. This is because they are a single target weapon and have a slower attack speed. In general, the DPS of a Rogue will be about double that of a Warrior, but it only applies to single targets, whereas a Warrior can affect multiple enemies. Mages have the same DPS as a Warrior, but only affect a single target, but their attacks are much easier to vary in damage type, bypassing armor/resistances.

DPS values for Rogues are actually higher for Dual Weapons than for Archery, but this is, in part, offset by the increased danger a Rogue is in by being in melee range. Archery does have an advantage in that all it's damage is applied at once, which is more likely to knock an enemy around with the force of the attack.

Here are some statistics for optimal basic attack chains with high-level weapons (to better show differences).

Style - Weapon Damage - Hits per Chain - Optimal Chain Duration - DPS - DPS compared to Two Handed

Weapon and Shield - 42 - 5 - 2.77s - 75.58 - 1.007
Two Handed - 48 - 5 - 3.2s - 75 - 1.0
Dual Weapon - 52 - 10 - 2.52s - 205.8 - 2.7
Archery - 166 - 5 - 5.58s - 148.5 - 1.98
Staff - 57 - 5 - 3.86s - 73.7 - 0.98

And looks like it was Stanley who pointed out the all around improvement for the 2H warrior to make em feel bit more powerful in the retail, heres the quote. Just incase anyone thought I was pulling stuff out of my ass

Stanley Woo wrote...

Maria, I can sympathize with you. It wasn't too too long ago that the QA content team was doing playthroughs and combat balance testing. I was playing as a 2-handed warrior and felt much the same way you do, that 2-handed warriors are hardy enough and don't do enough damage and don't feel powerful enough. Several discussions were held with combat-specialized QA and bugs were filed. After more discussion, some changes were made to make the 2-handed warrior a more viable and fun class earlier in the game.

Now, while 2-handed warrior takes a little getting used to, as it's not the traditional superbad 2-handed warrior that you'd find in other games, it is far more useful early in the game, and warrior players have many options for speccing. Our QA lead min-maxed a two-handed warrior into doing ridiculously massive damage to the point of one-shotting boss creatures.

This may or may not make this class more fun for you, but it was a problem that I am confident we've addressed many of the concerns you've brought up and made the class morefun than what the demo shows. It is still a bit of a slow-starter class, though, as it doesn't have the shininess of mages or the speed of rogues.

YMMV.

Also pretty sure that 1-shotting was normal diff, on your average 'boss mob' in a pack, not the epic elite bosses and whatnot. Still goes to show whats possible if you know what your doing.

Modifié par Adhin, 28 février 2011 - 09:24 .

[MColes]

Yea, but you're also going to have similar situations with W&S too, with all the aoe crowd controls, and knockbacks hitting your own people if you're not careful.

[Adhin]

Yeah sorta Peter has stated that the actual base attack 'arc' is kinda like Cold Cone. The 1H and 2H 'arc' is smaller, of course, but the +1m of giant reach doesn't actually change the arch radius, it changes the 'distance away'. That said, even with giants reach, if you have a rogue lets say on the exact opposite side of a target you wont hit them with a 2H Sword. The Distance is actually rather small, the arch is a wide fan shape instead of a thinner longer reaching cone.

So overall it shouldn't be to bad but you will have to be careful, He did state that higher lvls, you can 1 shot your buddies if your not careful with some of the warrior abilities, like Mighty Blow or some of the WnB area knockbacks.

Modifié par Adhin, 28 février 2011 - 09:43 .

[borelocin]

Comparing the two trees, Sword and Board is clearly superior for tanking. It has superior damage mitigation overall and more importantly lower spike damage through flanking and critical immunity.  

Shield Defense + Shield Wall
Damage: -25%
Damage resistance +25% vs. frontal attacks
Damage resistance: +50% vs. rear attacks
20% chance that normal hits against the warrior become glancing blows

Perception - Immune to flanking

Safeguard - Immune to critical hits

Scatter + Disperse, Shield Bash + Pummel, Assault + Battery all handy crowd control abilities with a side order of damage.

In short, can a 2hander hold aggro with more DPS ? Yes. Can they survive holding aggro with long healing and potion cooldowns ? Not nearly as well as a Sword and Board.

When playing MMOs I know I run like my arse is on fire when the tank says "hey I can hold aggro with dps" for that very reason. The tanks job is not to parse well. The tanks job is to 1> not die 2> keep mobs off everyone else.   

[Thullon]

It looks like 2h tanking will start out very weak, peak mid game and fall back late game when a s&s spec rounds out their talents.
Fenris has some interesting potential for a 2h tank due to his specialization but I don't think Hawke will have a chance on harder difficulties.

[borelocin]

Adhin wrote...

Yeah sorta Peter has stated that the actual base attack 'arc' is kinda like Cold Cone. The 1H and 2H 'arc' is smaller, of course, but the +1m of giant reach doesn't actually change the arch radius, it changes the 'distance away'. That said, even with giants reach, if you have a rogue lets say on the exact opposite side of a target you wont hit them with a 2H Sword. The Distance is actually rather small, the arch is a wide fan shape instead of a thinner longer reaching cone.

So overall it shouldn't be to bad but you will have to be careful, He did state that higher lvls, you can 1 shot your buddies if your not careful with some of the warrior abilities, like Mighty Blow or some of the WnB area knockbacks.

Playing the demo on Nightmare, Carver kept 1 shotting the party with Whirlwhind until I removed it from tactics.
Aveline did manage to clip my rogue with shield arc attacks a couple of times, but there were no fatalities.

[0rz0]

A 2h tank would rather than absorb damage be better at preventing getting it, via all the knockdowns and whatnot.

[Shinimas]

0rz0 wrote...

A 2h tank would rather than absorb damage be better at preventing getting it, via all the knockdowns and whatnot.

Shield Warrior is better in that than 2H.

[TeamLexana]

Berkilak wrote...

 I would like to take this opportunity to thank BioWare from freeing the tank role from the sword'n boarders. A quick glance over the Warrior skills shows this to be true. Two-handed tanks are finally workable without being gimped!

Uhh... Fail? 2H's were the best tanks in DAO/A due to Indomitable they'd never lose aggro due to being stunned or knocked down and the fact that they could actually kill the crap that was attacking them. I won't take a W/S on nightmare with me in DAO/A because of it. I even invest early and pull Alistair out of W/S because 2H is just that much better. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your post, sorry, lolz.

[Reptillius]

On the Demo with a 2 handed warrior I was able to hit through enemies... I particularly enjoyed lining up Mighty Blows to strike at least 2 enemies in a straight line. And I hit enemies behind more than once if they were close enough with swings. So it could potentially hit even if the rogue is on the direct opposite side. specially with giant's reach.

Also keep in mind. If the Demo is any example then wave style combat coming from all sides means that enemies will end up behind the tank much more than in DA:O that means protection from that side becomes much more important. Also keep in mind that rogue like enemies will still likely have something like backstab just like they did in DA:O. This makes Crit prevention more important if backstab bonus damage is based off crit damage but with a special trigger as in the previous game. Even if the mobs don't use player abilities.

This means that the higher the difficulty likely the morew SnS shines at what it can mitigate... And all of that is ignoring the fact that with that shield on Aveline or SnS Hawke take like 1/3 to 1/2 the damage 2H Hawke and 2H Carver take in the demo. Even with numbers adjusted slightly I don't see them making up that big of a gap. And that's just with basic pitiful equipment.

[Sabresandiego]

One thing to remember is that the reavers specialization seems geared towards tanks. The theme being the more damage you take, the more damage you do. Considering 2H tanks take more damage than shield warriors, reaver may synergize very well with the style.

[TeamLexana]

Eh, outside of frightening appearance, I didn't really like reaver in DAO. It was more trouble then it was worth trying to use the other talents because if u did, u had to have a mage permanantly attached to your ass healing it when it would be more effective for said mage to do CC and hexes instead. At least for me, I'm sure some peeps like it or it wouldn't have made DA2.. well Duelist made it so maybe not, lolz.