88 réponses à ce sujet

[Reptillius]

My Tanks in DA:O take the first two steps of Reaver... In a mass of dead bodies the first one is a great heal booster so the mage can keep nuking and of course Frightening appearance made hitting one poor unlucky soul ****** off the rest of the enemies so bad that it would take an act of god to break aggro on them once you got to a midlevel in the game.

[TeamLexana]

Devour never really worked right on the console, maybe on the pc? Frightening Appearance was a good one though, it'd stop movement of one enemy and draw aggro from the rest towards the warrior. I didn't care for the rest, I found it was for me not use them.

[Graunt]

Berkilak wrote...
Let's take a look at the Warrior trees, shall we?



Secondly, Two-handed. Note that not a SINGLE talent in this tree increases damage. It merely provides the best AoE skills for the class, which is just as effective at keeping aggro as it is at doing damage.

I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but to say that the two-handed tree does not include "damage increasing" skills is quite the misnomer.  If your argument is that it does not improve auto attack damage, then that's mostly true.

1. Mighty Blow
Requires: level 2
The warrior leaps into the air, crashing down on foes with tremendous force.
Physical damage: 24 - modified by STR, but yes, this increases damage.
Physical force: 2x
Cost: 20 stamina
Cooldown:20s
Type: Activated ability

2. Shattering Blow
Requires: Level 8
Requires: Mighty Blow
Points required in Two-Handed: 2
Mighty Blow now crushes enemies who a mage has made BRITTLE.
Physical damage: 300% vs. BRITTLE targets - indirectly increases damage by a lot through CCC.
Physical force: 200% vs. BRITTLE targets
Cooldown: -5s
Type: Upgrade

3. Killer Blow
Requires: Level 6
Requires: Mighty Blow
Mighty Blow becomes considerably more punishing.
Physical damage: +12 - modified by STR, but yes, this increases damage.
Type: Upgrade

4. Scythe
Requires: Level 5
Requires: Mighty Blow
Points required in Two-Handed: 2
The warrior charges through enemy lines, felling combatants in the way.
Physical damage: 18 - modified by STR, but yes, this increases damage.
Physical force: 2x
Cost: 30 stamina
Cooldown: 20s
Type: Activated ability

5. Reaper
Requires: Level 9
Requires: Scythe
Scythe inflicts a great deal more pain, particularly against enemies a mage has made BRITTLE.
Physical damage: +9
Physical damage: 200% vs. BRITTLE targets
Physical force: +1x
Physical force: 200% vs BRITTLE targets - indirectly increases damage by a lot through CCC.
Type: Upgrade

7. Whirlwind
Requires: Level 7
Requires: Mighty Blow
Requires: Giant's Reach
Points required in Two-Handed: 3
The warrior cuts through foes, hitting all targets within melee range with a single sweeping arc.
Physical damage: 18 - modified by STR, but yes, this increases damage (significantly).
Physical force: 2x
Size: 6m
Cost: 30 stamina
Cooldown: 30s
Type: Activated ability

8. Tornado
Requires: Level 13
Requires: Whirlwind
Points required in Two-Handed: 6
Whirlwind now lands a critical hit with nearly every swing.
Critical chance: 100% - sorry what, that's not increasing damage?
Type: Upgrade

9. Cyclone
Requires: level 11
Requires: Whirlwind
Whirlwind becomes murderously effective and can be used more frequently
Physical damage: +6 - modified by STR, but yes, this increases damage.
Cooldown: -5s
Type: Upgrade

10. Sunder
Requires: Level 4
Points required in Two-Handed: 1
The warrior's strikes carry such weight that critical hits gain a chance to STAGGER the victim.
Critical chance: +10% - sorry what, that's not increasing damage?
STAGGER chance: 50% vs. normal enemies on a critical hit
Type: Passive ability

The Sword and Board Warrior still is the better tank by quite the
margin. The Damage mitigation and CC outweight any extra damage a 2H
Warrior does for a Tank role. But the 2H is a better Tank than in
Origins, that much is true.

This was certainly NOT true in Origins or Awakening.  A sword and board Warrior was a third wheel.  It remains to be seen if the mitigation is worth it for Nightmare over the weaker threat and damage.  I've always been of the mindset of overwhelming your enemies and removing them quickly, even if you get a little scratched in the process.  This will be especially true against any kind of magical attacks.

For Nightmare I'll either be going two-handed tree plus many from Vanguard and Defender with two Mages (or three if that's possible) and an Archer or sword and board plus a melee Rogue and two Mages.  Problem is that most of the good stagger abilities are area of effect and I'll constantly have to run the Rogue out -- not fun.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 01:56 .

[Graunt]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

The Sword and Board Warrior still is the better tank by quite the margin. The Damage mitigation and CC outweight any extra damage a 2H Warrior does for a Tank role. But the 2H is a better Tank than in Origins, that much is true.

Neither of us can make the argument that the margin is that wide. DA2 has shown itself to be a game that pumps out as many enemies at once. A dead enemy is one that isn't doing damage. While I'll concede that, for a single-boss encounter, a shield and weapon tank will outweigh a two-hander, those types of fights are shaping up to be the exception to the rule. It's all about battlefield management rather than statistical min-maxing.

Bolded part is exactly why S&S is better.

That's exactly why sword and board was worse...much worse.  MUCH lower threat and slower killing.

I bet extra AoE damage a 2h warrior can cause helps him keep argo a lot better. Just add Bravery.

Yep.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 01:58 .

[jheise4321]

S&S gives a flat damage mitigation of -25% with 2 talents. On top of that, the shield the shield Aveline uses in the demo is like 30% of her armor. On hard and especially nightmare you will be reloading a lot because of wipes.

[jheise4321]

S&S gives a flat damage mitigation of -25% with 2 talents. On top of that, the shield the shield Aveline uses in the demo is like 30% of her armor. On hard and especially nightmare you will be reloading a lot because of wipes.

[Graunt]

jheise4321 wrote...

S&S gives a flat damage mitigation of -25% with 2 talents. On top of that, the shield the shield Aveline uses in the demo is like 30% of her armor. On hard and especially nightmare you will be reloading a lot because of wipes.

This should (and probably will) only matter on bosses.  For that, it wouldn't be such a waste to have dumped points into the shield tree, but for most regular encounters of trash waves, I'll go with all of the two-handed abilities.  Don't forget that not everyone grabs the defensive spells and auras either, yet those options are available.  I doubt Bioware is going to set it up so that only one Warrior, Mage and Rogue spec will work on Nightmare, but who knows...

[tongz]

With taunt changing to a threat transfer mechanic instead of a static threat generator, keeping aoe threat will also be harder for a S&S tank.

[Trefecka]

One thing to note about S&S threat generation is the possibility of using battle synergy as your primary threat generator. Then the primary source of threat generation will be from your damage dealers, and your tank could be there as a pure damage sponge. Then the S&S tank might be better off since the only thing you would care about is damage mitigation. While this is the approach I'm planning on using in my nightmare run (Battle synergy to pull everything to my tank, then a stonewall+ AOE burst), one possible problem with this approach is if the enemy uses a lot of AOE stuff. Having to hang around in a 10m radius around your tank might be a problem

[Reptillius]

For Starters. Devour did have a kind of limited range and I've heard it was worse somehow on the consoles. so yes it's use was somewhat limited sadly.

Graunt wrote...

jheise4321 wrote...

S&S gives a flat damage mitigation of -25% with 2 talents. On top of that, the shield the shield Aveline uses in the demo is like 30% of her armor. On hard and especially nightmare you will be reloading a lot because of wipes.

This should (and probably will) only matter on bosses.  For that, it wouldn't be such a waste to have dumped points into the shield tree, but for most regular encounters of trash waves, I'll go with all of the two-handed abilities.  Don't forget that not everyone grabs the defensive spells and auras either, yet those options are available.  I doubt Bioware is going to set it up so that only one Warrior, Mage and Rogue spec will work on Nightmare, but who knows...

As for all of this here.  Actually. It would matter most on bosses but wouldn't matter just on bosses. It would really shine on bosses with waves of adds in the fight because there are plenty of boss fights in games where the biggest issue isn't usually boss damage but all the extra crap thrown in by the adds that need controlled and can make the heavy damage of a boss turn into overwhelming damage.

That said.  With mitigations of various kind already higher against normal and luitenant ranked enemies.  Adding to that can potentially make a largely untouchable tank if things go wonky against trash pulls.  That being said. In this game unlike the first one. These damage mitigating boosting talents can actually be turned off in DA2 which I like unlike in DA:O where even when you got higher talents to upgrade some of your mitigation talents it really didn't entirely fix the lowered numbers you got for taking them in the first place. That was a drawback to SnS in DA:O that made a whole chain of SnS talents a double edged sword. It's something I'm glad they fixed actually.


And I got to say. Aveline in the Demo showed great Threat control even if you didn't really mess with her at all from basic settings. Screwing around on normal to play it a few more times I started paying attention and actually had trouble pulling trash that she actually had the chance to get threat on. The only thing that really did it was the archer with either Rain of Arrows because of it's slightly larger radius or the Arrow of Smackdown(I'd call it something slightly different but these forums don't like that word).  And the Arrow of Smackdown part of it's thing in the demo is that it took such huge chunks of enemy health away every time you got to use it.

[Beerfish]

A thing that has tipped the scales in favour of sword and board in the past is the ability to gain (in effect) access to an extra magic item slot, that being a shield.

Fade Wall: +3 defense
+20% to healing effects received
+1/+2 stamina regeneration in combat
+25 stamina

Warden Tower shield: +3 willpower
+6 defense
+1/+2 stamina regeneration in combat

Just a couple of examples.

[Reptillius]

Beerfish wrote...

A thing that has tipped the scales in favour of sword and board in the past is the ability to gain (in effect) access to an extra magic item slot, that being a shield.

Fade Wall: +3 defense
+20% to healing effects received
+1/+2 stamina regeneration in combat
+25 stamina

Warden Tower shield: +3 willpower
+6 defense
+1/+2 stamina regeneration in combat

Just a couple of examples.

Very true. got to say there are days where I love me some "Bulwark of the Ages" in DA:O and before that a few other prominant shields such as Cailan's and others.

[Sidac]

you didnt need a sword and shield to tank in DAO why would you need it here?

[Reptillius]

Sidac wrote...

you didnt need a sword and shield to tank in DAO why would you need it here?

Various things change need. Even in the same games. Requirements of need versus want can change as things like Difficulty and party make up change.

So while no you don't necessarily need them. It doesn't necessarily put your choices on even footing either.

Some will like the idea and gravitate the idea that a good defense is by having a strong offense. Some of us will favor one practically unkillable SoB while the rest of our party mops up.  Some of us will dabble or like something more somewhere in between.

I myself when building tanks tend to go somewhere in between but leaning more on the defensive side for protection yet still able to have some fun and dps. It fits my style a little more and the characters seem ready for that.  To my added advantage abilities like Bravery and it's upgrades are available to me even as SnS and despite the fact that they aren't talked about as much, BattleMaster talents are superb for close quarters tightly grouped slaughter fests of their own that both sides can have.

Both Rally with it's ability to supply late battle surges in more drawn out encounters and Battle Synergies ability to boost the whole group defensively over the tank. Those are not abilities to be scoffed at.  Particularly at higher difficulties.  Not to mention Rally's ability to synergize with and share abilities from the defender tree.

Another one that is not often mentioned and I'd have to relook at lists in this thread from last night but I know in other threads has been over looked a little bit is the Defender tree.  While plenty might forsake it or ignore it. People are going to need to accept that both can have it but Two Handed tanks perhaps even more than SnS tanks are going to have to consider taking some points in this particular group of abilities.

So while we have a wide range of options from Offensive SnS to Tanking 2H. It does not mean they are all made equal and our style may demand something in particular because a Tank build 2H is not going to have the same defensive capabilities no matter how you do it as a SnS, specially with BattleMaster and Defender abilities at their disposal.

I myself when I do one of my tank build playthroughs for Hawke am going to likely at least one time going to make basically an Ultimate Defender type build just like I did in DA:O.  And I managed to make an almost unkillable SnS tank in DA:O with the right gear and a whole pile of talents.

[Beerfish]

The problem I had in DAO is not the fact that I couldn't turn a two hander into a tank it was that the two handers did not deal out enough damage to compensate for not being a tank. In NWN it could pay off to go without a tank because my two handed sworder or scyther though weak defensivly could deal out massive damage. I just didn't get that in DAO. Sten and Oghren were usually the first to be in trouble in most any fight because their damage dealing did not equate with lack of defense.

You can for sure make just about any class into a tank if you wish but I've always looked at two handers as damage dealers, not damage absorbers.

[Graunt]

Beerfish wrote...

The problem I had in DAO is not the fact that I couldn't turn a two hander into a tank it was that the two handers did not deal out enough damage to compensate for not being a tank. In NWN it could pay off to go without a tank because my two handed sworder or scyther though weak defensivly could deal out massive damage. I just didn't get that in DAO. Sten and Oghren were usually the first to be in trouble in most any fight because their damage dealing did not equate with lack of defense.

You can for sure make just about any class into a tank if you wish but I've always looked at two handers as damage dealers, not damage absorbers.

There was basically only one two-handed skill that made them better than dual-wielding for tanking sometimes, yet it still fell flat for overall threat and damage.  If you really wanted something that could hold aggro and actually kill anything you'd just go with a Sword/Dagger build.  You're already doing superior damage, but you'll probably also have 30+ in DEX, so your defense would be pretty decent too.

Modifié par Graunt, 03 mars 2011 - 01:20 .

[Berkilak]

Can't wait to try this out. Release is painfully close.

[borelocin]

Semi-shameless bump. Just movingmy favourite threads up a page to get them away from that arsehat spolier

[veryalien]

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

[borelocin]

Trefecka wrote...

One thing to note about S&S threat generation is the possibility of using battle synergy as your primary threat generator. Then the primary source of threat generation will be from your damage dealers, and your tank could be there as a pure damage sponge. Then the S&S tank might be better off since the only thing you would care about is damage mitigation. While this is the approach I'm planning on using in my nightmare run (Battle synergy to pull everything to my tank, then a stonewall+ AOE burst), one possible problem with this approach is if the enemy uses a lot of AOE stuff. Having to hang around in a 10m radius around your tank might be a problem

This is pretty much what I had in mind. Sword+Board tank who uses threat transfer to hold aggro while the rest of the party hides behind him and shoot and nuke to their hearts content.

I planned to somewhat offset the risk of having everyone -10M by using the mages party shield.

I MIGHT use a DW Rogue or 2hander warrior as an off-tank if I can work out how to keep melee characters from hitting each other without excessive micro.

Modifié par borelocin, 06 mars 2011 - 01:08 .

[Mezinger]

I sure hope not... a warrior tank without a shield? That's ridiculous.

[Skilled Seeker]

I tanked with a 2 hander in Origins on nightmare. Never had a problem.

[Potato Cat]

Well that's good. I can have Fenris in my party more often now.

[randName]

Berkilak wrote...

I always played on a modded Nightmare setting in DA:O - adding more difficulty to the game ~ I rarely used the shield tank; hell a mage, or a rogue can tank rather well in DA:O if you do it right.

But I do like the new talent trees, and it does make it more interesting, esp. for my planned all rogue party on nightmare; I predict lots of slaughter and retries, but it will be entertaining.

EDIT.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

I tanked with a 2 hander in Origins on nightmare. Never had a problem.

+1

Modifié par randName, 06 mars 2011 - 03:04 .

[randName]

Mezinger wrote...

I sure hope not... a warrior tank without a shield? That's ridiculous.

You would hate the Illustionist Deep Gnome tank from Heart of Winter in Icewind Dale 2 (true it was better with one level of monk, 1 level of cleric, 1 level of Rogue and maybe some levels of druid, for that neat barskin AC bonus) .

Best tank ever ~ at 72 in AC 

Modifié par randName, 06 mars 2011 - 03:07 .