109 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

Maria Caliban wrote...
eating shellfish leads to darkspawn hordes swarming the world.

What you're saying is that we shouldn't eat apples? 

[The Dead Milkman]

Grovermancer wrote...


I'm currently on my 3rd run-through, as a 2-Handed Dwarf.  My second was a Blood Mage, lvl 22.  (almost hit 23!) 

Now, then...  WHY ARE BLOOD MAGES SUPPOSEDLY EVIL?

Sure, I played it evil, and did every evil thing I could in the game, and most of my party left or got slaughtered, as did anyone else I encountered.  But what is INHERENTLY evil about Blood Mages?

I guess the canon is that they open the veil for demons to come through...?  Is that why?

But seriously, look at their powers!  None of them are as bad as half the regular spell-tree powers all Mages can use.  (the most evil of which I took for RP purposes in my build)

Exploding enemies, sucking the life from opponents, raising the dead...  Those are NORMAL, "non-evil" spell powers?! 

Far worse than any of the 4 Blood Mage powers I think.

It's not about the in-game spells. It's about what potential powers the blood mages posess. The being backed by a demon thing doesn't help either. I think it's mostly a reputation thing, because of the imperium. I mean as a blood mage, did you use only YOUR blood? Using someone elses is pretty evil.

[Grovermancer]

The Dead Milkman wrote...

It's not about the in-game spells. It's about what potential powers the blood mages posess. The being backed by a demon thing doesn't help either. I think it's mostly a reputation thing, because of the imperium. I mean as a blood mage, did you use only YOUR blood? Using someone elses is pretty evil.

Actually, not once did I pull life from an ally.  Wasn't efficient to do so. 

Also, the "demon/abomination" thing only happened in the Magi Tower because Uldred dabbled in demonology -- or so says that guy who's stuck in the veil and recounts the story to you.  It's not inherent to Blood Magic.

Sounds like BM isn't any more inherently evil than any other school, it's just too risky, too addicting, too dangerous.

[soteria]

I see it as three reasons.



First, using other people's blood or even killing them to fuel your spells. Sure, you can use your own, but presumably many don't, and why would they, if it came down to it? If it's your life or someone else's...?



Second, it is taught by demons. You could definitely argue that demons aren't evil so much as a competing species that happens to feed on humans (are humans evil for feeding on cattle?) To most people, that's just hair-splitting though, and anything that comes from demons is evil.



Third, you can use it to control others' minds. This is the strongest point, to me, as the potential for abuse is extreme, and I just can't think of a good reason to use that sort of power. The mind is sacrosanct.

[Nimander]

You can in-game learn Blood Magic from humans, for one thing. Simply because the only way to unlock it is from demons doesn't mean that's the only source.

For another, remember the control aspect. This is important. The Chantry /addicts/ Templars to Lyrium to control them. Even Alistair says only 'full templars' use it, and he manages to use his powers fine so it's probably not necessary.

Same thing. They forcibly make all the templars addicted to Lyrium to control them. They disallow blood magic because it's not something they can easily control and due to certain mages in the past being baddies.

Modifié par Nimander, 17 novembre 2009 - 08:14 .

[Whailor]

There's no "evil magic" as such, it is a tool and the "evil" comes from the person using it. Is a spanner or hammer evil because someone's skull was crushed with it? No. Heck it's like this "dark side of the Force" in SW universe as well, there's no "dark side" in the Force itself, it's just a tool, it's the "dark side" of the person utilizing that tool.

[Necroe-]

i was thinking, wouldnt it be cool to add a blood magic related speech checks?



i mean it'd fit with the whole contorlling ones actions and would have an outside of combat use!

[Dalreece Khaine]

Grovermancer wrote...


I'm currently on my 3rd run-through, as a 2-Handed Dwarf.  My second was a Blood Mage, lvl 22.  (almost hit 23!) 

Now, then...  WHY ARE BLOOD MAGES SUPPOSEDLY EVIL?

Sure, I played it evil, and did every evil thing I could in the game, and most of my party left or got slaughtered, as did anyone else I encountered.  But what is INHERENTLY evil about Blood Mages?

I guess the canon is that they open the veil for demons to come through...?  Is that why?

But seriously, look at their powers!  None of them are as bad as half the regular spell-tree powers all Mages can use.  (the most evil of which I took for RP purposes in my build)

Exploding enemies, sucking the life from opponents, raising the dead...  Those are NORMAL, "non-evil" spell powers?! 

Far worse than any of the 4 Blood Mage powers I think.

It's a prejudice of the world - or at least of Ferelden.  Mages in general are despised, and blood mages more than others - it apparently descends from demons, it offers mind control, and you're literally using the life-force of others as mana for your spells.

Magic is a rare sight in Ferelden, and situations like the one with Conor show exactly why the people of Ferelden are wary of it, and why the Chantry has established strict controls over it, even laying aside their prejudices over what mages apparently did to their Maker's city.

Now, that's just plain magic.  Blood Magic is something else because it's really powerful.  (Jowan, for example, a self admitted dabbler, manages to overpower several templars at once).  It was with the raw power of Blood Magic that the Maker's City was apparently breached.

Modifié par Dalreece Khaine, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:37 .

[Noone of Importance]

but it is mostly in my mind the fact the chantry is far from what Andraste would have wanted it to be, those in charge of the chantry want power and control, they control the templars, they oppose the Tevinter Chantry for doing it slightly different, and they despise bloodmages because of vengance and seeing a threat,



is blood magic evil no

does the list of blood mages have a large proportion of evil users probably

why is blood magic bad - because the Divine says so no more no less

same as why they destroyed the dales, the elves didnt submit to hte chantry, and from the pov of those in charge of the chantry your on our side or evil and must be purged

[Lotion Soronarr]

Blood magic is preety much evil. It comes from DEMONS. Nuff said.

[reddragon567]

I want that spell Jowan has. The one that just knocks everyone out around you for an hour.

[Haasth]

As said numerous times before, Blood Magic is not necessarily evil. A lot of mages that practice it however become more power hungry and use it to control others. It can after all be used to control the very bodies of others. Blood Magic is very powerful; "Blood contains power, knowledge.."

The fact that a lot - not all of them - Mages learn it by making pacts with spirits of the Fade does not help. Mind you it can be learned by other means, but it originates from demons. I believe.

To give an example, I am pretty sure Jowan (Mage Origin) did not learn his Blood Magic from demons. He simply is not that kind of person. Jowan is not an 'evil' Mage at all, he is just very unlucky and learned Blood Magic as a way out.

Grey Wardens are known to use Blood Magic - in fact the idea of drinking Darkspawn blood is more or less a Blood Magic thought - but are not really evil. It is a means to gain power... which makes it easier to defeat the Darkspawn.

I personally like to think my Mage learned Blood Magic by studying it as a means of countering the more sinister Blood Mages, and to defeat the Blight faster. And seeing Mages are already considered demonic spawns, being called a Blood Mage wouldn't hurt my Mage either.

Modifié par Haasth, 17 novembre 2009 - 12:13 .

[Grovermancer]

Whailor wrote...

There's no "evil magic" as such, it is a tool and the "evil" comes from the person using it. Is a spanner or hammer evil because someone's skull was crushed with it? No. Heck it's like this "dark side of the Force" in SW universe as well, there's no "dark side" in the Force itself, it's just a tool, it's the "dark side" of the person utilizing that tool.

Not to go waaay off-topic, but that is wrong.  Canonically speaking, that is wrong.  GL himself, as well as confirmed LA sources (Leland Chee largely) ALL say there IS a "Dark Side" of the Force, and it IS "inherently" bad.  In the DVD commentaries, GL likens the Dark Side to a cancer of the Force.

Actually, that's kindof why I posted this thread; it was almost like BW was trying to liken BM to Sith or something, but I didn't see it that way; in SW, the Sith/Dark Side ARE canonically 'evil,' you cannot be detached and neutral and 'use the Dark Side like a tool.'  The Dark Side has inherent traits that are in-universe defined as "bad."

But you could use Blood Magic w/o harm or corruption in theory.  So the Blood Mages are not the same motif as Dark Side/Sith.

[Itkovian]

A good indicator would be how every single of the main recruitment quest problems turn out to be caused by Blood Magic.

Maybe it is not inherently evil, but it certainly can easily leads to evil and disastrous consequences.

I mean, every one of those quests turn out to unveil a vile or terrible use of Blood Magic.

Not only does that show that Blood Magic is Bad, but it certainly cast the whole Chantry/Templar thing into a new light. The game makes it quite clear that the edicts against Blood Magic are more than pure propaganda.

Itkovian

[Noone of Importance]

the problem with blood magic is its a simple tool that gives stupid amounts of power very fast, like the gun and the kungfu master,



a master of most martial arts can kill you with one well placed blow no ifs no buts your dead on a whim, but in getting to the skill to do that leads him to know not to do that, a gun point click dead its easy,



blood magic is like that, in the right hands it can be used responsibly and carefully but it gives massive power quick enough for the irresponsible to misuse it,



irving without bloodmagic could probably waste the templars in the circle with ease, but has learned responsibility and discipline through his years so he is wise enough not to, Jowan dabbling in bloodmagic reached a terrifying level of power without really trying



that and its origins in demons scares the chantry, by now people can learn it without dealing with demons (bioware just wanted you to work for it because of its power) but



it still has its origins in demons = scares the chantry,

the Tevinter Mage Lords used it = scares the chantry

Any mage can become a power in no time = scares the chantry

it takes a strong will to not be tempted to use it for ill = scares the chantry





and by the definition of anything based on demons / evil is an evil thing then grey wardens are evil as they are based on taking darkspawn blood and doing a blood magic rite in essence

[Nhani]

Grovermancer wrote...
Not to go waaay off-topic, but that is wrong.  Canonically speaking, that is wrong.  GL himself, as well as confirmed LA sources (Leland Chee largely) ALL say there IS a "Dark Side" of the Force, and it IS "inherently" bad.  In the DVD commentaries, GL likens the Dark Side to a cancer of the Force.

Actually, that's kindof why I posted this thread; it was almost like BW was trying to liken BM to Sith or something, but I didn't see it that way; in SW, the Sith/Dark Side ARE canonically 'evil,' you cannot be detached and neutral and 'use the Dark Side like a tool.'  The Dark Side has inherent traits that are in-universe defined as "bad."

But you could use Blood Magic w/o harm or corruption in theory.  So the Blood Mages are not the same motif as Dark Side/Sith.

This, very much.

Blood Magic and the Dark Side are very different entities because the Force by its very nature has absolutes - an absolute good and an absolute evil, and no matter how much people screech moral relativity, that isn't subject to change because those absolutes are absolute. Dragon Age, on the other hand, is much different because there really are no absolutes to speak of.

Well okay, demons aren't all that ambigous, and neither are the darkspawn, but for the most part, there really aren't any absolutes.

That said, Blood Magic is contextually considered morally wrong and with good reason - you can use it for good, sure, but between the nature of the powers given and the moral and ideological sacrifices made to get there.. there's some really good reasons why it's largely revlied.

In the end, Blood Magic isn't really that much different from the Anvil of the Void - except that it can also influence and take control of people. It in itself isn't evil, but the temptation to sacrifice anyone you deem worthless or inconvenient can easily become very strong, and it's often safer (and generally considered more morally right) to destroy the means than pretend people will always be able to use them responsibly. Of course, Blood Magic has the added issue that by being illegal, it'll only be practiced by people with a certain disregard for rules or irresponsibility to begin with.

But it's not inherently evil in itself, no.

[RazorrX]

I think it goes more along this line:



The Old Gods taught The Tev. Empire Blood Magic and along with it - ritual sacrifice. The TI is responsible for the Second Sin which led to the Blight in the first place. The entire blame for the blight lies within Blood Magic. The Mages of the TI used Blood Magic to try and Invade the Golden City in order to Liberate the Old Gods. This ritual took a LOT of sacrifices, and ended up corrupting the Golden City and creating the Blight. (From Codex, and Collectors Guide). So the origin and history of blood magic is NOT for good use, it is for sacrifice and an assault on heaven.



Blood Magic is used to gain control of peoples minds. Hence why you need the Litany during the Mage Circle. As a player, you never realize the top tier of Blood Magic, you just dable in it. But Blood Magic has been used to manipulate people, etc. (As seen in Wardens Keep if you talk to and read everything you get a much larger picture of how they were using blood magic to 'spur' the rebellion).



Blood Magic IS tied to Demonology. You learn it from them (and an interesting side note is it originated from Old Gods, so does that make them Demons by default?). Even Jowan most likely learned it from one, you never learn HOW he learned. He could enter the fade, just had not undergone the harrowing. There are books about Blood Magic in the Circle (Most likely put there by Uldred) that would lead a student to how to begin to learn via contact with demons, etc.



In the game, EVERY super bad mage group that is killing, etc. are led by Blood Mages. Thus setting the example that they are Evil.



Blood Magic is a perversion of life, thus is evil by nature. You use the life force to generate power. Notice that Jowan never said: I can give my life to save the child. HE said : I can TAKE someones life to save the child.



And finally, while I disagree with a LOT of what the chantry stands for: The Chantry teaches that Blood Mages are Malificarium and must be put down brutally. This is taught in EVERY city, to every person. The Dales were taken from the elves for 2 reasons: They did not aid human cities during the blight (just watched) and even worse: THey would not CONVERT to the Chant. I liken it to Salem and the witch trials.

[Dalreece Khaine]

Noone of Importance wrote...

but it is mostly in my mind the fact the chantry is far from what Andraste would have wanted it to be, those in charge of the chantry want power and control, they control the templars, they oppose the Tevinter Chantry for doing it slightly different, and they despise bloodmages because of vengance and seeing a threat,

is blood magic evil no
does the list of blood mages have a large proportion of evil users probably
why is blood magic bad - because the Divine says so no more no less
same as why they destroyed the dales, the elves didnt submit to hte chantry, and from the pov of those in charge of the chantry your on our side or evil and must be purged

I never said Blood Magic was evil.  Just that is is reguarded as so by the Chantry, and by extension the ordinary, Maker-fearing citizens of the world.  Don't even get me started on the Chantry

[Madanial]

We all already see how evil it it in the mage tower,isn't it?

[JamesX]

There is nothing intrinsictly evil about Blood mages, since you can play one and it does not dictate your behavior at all.

What it is is the chance at corruption. A Blood Mage's power is devoted to the use of life energy. Both to hurt and to control others. It doesn't heal it only destroys and there is little defense against it. Power corrupts and what happens when you have a bunch of people who has no check on them who can control the world like puppetmasters?

Naturally people fear it and they destroy what they fear. Plus the blood mages themselves are often evil individuals who is willing to inflict harm upon themselves and others for the power it grants them. Whether it is Society forcing them to be evil or the path naturally seem appealing to those personalities is a philosophical schism.

[BomimoDK]

fact is, they're not evil, they're labeled evil by the church. and the only way they label them as evil is because they wield power that has greater potential than anything else be it for good or evil. that and it feasts on the lifeforces that the Chantry taxs money off of, and that's bad.



fact: Blood mages aren't bad if the mage chooses to feast on his own lifeforce. and if h has the power to wield the demons he summons, then screw the chantry and the templars.



chantry propoganda: "bloodmages are of the fade, they're demons made humans. they use evil magic taking one persons life to beat it out of someone else. what is to stop them from feasting on YOU!"



so yeah, i've made up my mind as a human noble; i don't give a marshmellow about the chantry and i would rather like to stay neutral towards any kind of mages.

[JamesX]

BomimoDK wrote...

so yeah, i've made up my mind as a human noble; i don't give a marshmellow about the chantry and i would rather like to stay neutral towards any kind of mages.

This reminds me of a Dawn of War Quote
"An Open Mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred and unguarded"

[BomimoDK]

JamesX wrote...

BomimoDK wrote...

so yeah, i've made up my mind as a human noble; i don't give a marshmellow about the chantry and i would rather like to stay neutral towards any kind of mages.

This reminds me of a Dawn of War Quote
"An Open Mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred and unguarded"

oh lol wau. i'm kinda interested in knowing why? cause i'm distancing myself from both?

at my mage i had a long wet relationship with both and that ended up in some wird situations, given the ûber mothers respectlesness towards mages and Wynnes admirable attitude.

[packardbell]

I guess it's 'evil' by everyone since nearly everyone who pratcises it uses it for their own ends, for example where you investigate those missing elves in the alienage you get the option of boosting your health at the cost of those elves dying.

Maybe because it always invovles loss of life?

[JamesX]

BomimoDK wrote...

oh lol wau. i'm kinda interested in knowing why? cause i'm distancing myself from both?

at my mage i had a long wet relationship with both and that ended up in some wird situations, given the ûber mothers respectlesness towards mages and Wynnes admirable attitude.

Dawn of War is based on Warhammer 40k Universe, which has alot of similarties with the Fade and Demon Possession of Dragon Age.  In fact many people believe the whole Fade thing is "adopted" from Warhammer universe.

In that universe the Chaos Gods (resides in an alternate space of dreams and will) only the Psykers (those with "psionic/supernatural" abilities) can access the Immaterium and that is the source of their power.  The Gods however can use these Psykers to gain access to the material world to spread their ideology of chaos/disease/war/etc.   Similar so far?

In that world the very knowledge about Chaos (their collective title for the Chaos God/Faction) is corrupting.  Only staunch denial of their power will shield you from them - and the will of the God Emperor.  etc. etc.  So in that universe a psyker with the mentality that "well all power is how you use it, there is no inherient evil or good" is pretty much asking to be possessed and turned into a Cultist.  Because in that world power is not how you use it, the very power itself can be corrupting.

But that is a different setting and not Dragon Age.  I just got reminded of that quote and thought it was funny. 

Modifié par JamesX, 17 novembre 2009 - 06:50 .