93 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

Complete nonsense. The war on terror isn't a war. Terrorists aren't a nation, they're a criminal organization. And they're a criminal organization that isn't going away despite the "war".

I was using someone else's example but there are many examples of completely rotten civilizations in human history. I could invoke Godwin's Law but I won't. Suffice to say that the Batarians have a powerful military and a very violent disposition. They aren't simply a criminal organization but an entire well-armed race. And part of the ingrained culture of that race is slavery and torture.

These vermin have killed many thousands of humans and have enslaved tens or hundreds of thousands of humans and other species and have shown no willingness to stop or reform. I haven't heard one Batarian speak out against slavery. Their civilization must be brought down.

[Fro_McJoe]

^ Yes I agree my friend.

Hopefully once ME3 is over and the galaxy is saved and everything become merry and whatnot, Bioware will release and produce or allow a 3rd party to make some RTS that takes place in the Mass Effect Universe where Citadel forces can finally crush the Batarians. They are just like the North Koreans. They are crazy and unwaivering and brainwashed and need to be dealt with at some point before they get too powerful. 

Modifié par Fro_McJoe, 02 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[Xivai]

Uh, yea it is. I never said they were winning, but they certainly gave it their best shot. You generally don't send in the freaking military to deal with small insurgents, you stop it before it happens. Much as you hate to admit it, wars aren't fought with mass attritional battle anymore. It's getting more small scale. The cost of an all out attack on anything is suicidal. So what? You launch an attack on the Batarians. Seeing the weak state the Alliance is in the Quarians decide to try and get away with mining some more planets otherwise be fended off from.

Turians would blame the goddamn jackass human dictators for getting the galaxy in such a precarious position and vow to destroy us in our weakened state. The Volus would by nature be forced to cripple our interstellar economy if the Turians declared war. All Alliance assets would be frozen, now we would just be a bunch of stupid ****s who bit off more than we could chew. Not to mention the almost total destruction of the Batarians. Many would get up in arms and form rebel or outright terrorist group against us. Then you get the alliance protracted into a long and bloody guerrilla war. Hell if you destroy the Batarians out right the rest of the galaxy sympathizes with them. Humans look like they have a total knee jerk reaction to their culture.

We have the Turians and their immense fleet looming in, human economy in devastation by the Volus, and Batarian Rebels and their sympathisers. With such a strong presence, and with fear from us and the need to present a straight face I have no doubt Salarians and Asari would be dragged into it for diplomatic reasons. Then the little upstart **** stain humanity get's glassed off the face of the universe. Everything was perfect (in a sense) until we showed up, we just made things even worse.

Good ****ing job you really thought that through didn't you? By attacking the Batarians, you only become what your trying to stop. If anything you set off a chain reaction, it's not in the Turians nature to give quarter with any opponent.

[Zelnik]

I love how people keep on placing human ethics on an alien government. Two entire sentient races were nearly obliterated because they caused a galactic war. These were caused by acts of total aggression, yes, but the results were devastating. Much like a group of prey animals banding together to destroy a particularly effective predator (zok fot pik anyone?)

The Batarians... are worse. They are more of a parasite. Living in and around other races:
1. at first they "go along" with the laws of the Citadel, but run slave raids on other member races anyway, and going so far as to take over entire colonies of the Asari (the most advanced race in the galaxy).
2. When someone refuses to take their bull****, they ask for help from an extremely annoyed council, who probably knew of the slave raids and colony grabs for a while but could not find solid evidence.They should have expected the Council to support the younger, less "smash and grab your children" race.
3. Instead of dealing with the consequences of their actions, they take their ball and go home, and then launch an unsuccessful attack on the largest colony the humans have (successfully having a Shepard shaped fist shoved in their face). Instead of destabilizing the Systems Alliance, they get smashed like bugs so hard that it effects them for years to come.
4. Now they spend most of their time slaving, and launching terrorist attacks on citadel worlds, causing more trouble and loss of life then any war could possibly bring. While total war would be messy, the Citadel has a group of extremely powerful individuals who would have no issue driving a planet buster rock into the batarian homeworld to make a point.

The Citadel council of course would be "upset", but the resulting chaos it would cause to the slaving jerks would probably topple the regime that is warranting all the problems they are complaining about

[Whatever42]

Xivai wrote...

Uh, yea it is. I never said they were winning, but they certainly gave it their best shot. You generally don't send in the freaking military to deal with small insurgents, you stop it before it happens. Much as you hate to admit it, wars aren't fought with mass attritional battle anymore. It's getting more small scale. The cost of an all out attack on anything is suicidal. So what? You launch an attack on the Batarians. Seeing the weak state the Alliance is in the Quarians decide to try and get away with mining some more planets otherwise be fended off from.

Turians would blame the goddamn jackass human dictators for getting the galaxy in such a precarious position and vow to destroy us in our weakened state. The Volus would by nature be forced to cripple our interstellar economy if the Turians declared war. All Alliance assets would be frozen, now we would just be a bunch of stupid ****s who bit off more than we could chew. Not to mention the almost total destruction of the Batarians. Many would get up in arms and form rebel or outright terrorist group against us. Then you get the alliance protracted into a long and bloody guerrilla war. Hell if you destroy the Batarians out right the rest of the galaxy sympathizes with them. Humans look like they have a total knee jerk reaction to their culture.

We have the Turians and their immense fleet looming in, human economy in devastation by the Volus, and Batarian Rebels and their sympathisers. With such a strong presence, and with fear from us and the need to present a straight face I have no doubt Salarians and Asari would be dragged into it for diplomatic reasons. Then the little upstart **** stain humanity get's glassed off the face of the universe. Everything was perfect (in a sense) until we showed up, we just made things even worse.

Good ****ing job you really thought that through didn't you? By attacking the Batarians, you only become what your trying to stop. If anything you set off a chain reaction, it's not in the Turians nature to give quarter with any opponent.

Wars are not getting more small scale. We haven't had a real war since WWII. Since then, there have only been minor skirmishes or wars against insignificant powers. We can thank MAD for that.

But the Batarian slavers are not small scale. It's a massive operation fully backed by the Batarian government. It cannot be defeated until the Batarian government is dealt with.

Further, the council deliberately encouraged humanity to settle on the edge of the Terminus systems because they knew we would clash with the Batarians. This is like the Spectres on a massive scale. Send someone else in to do your dirty work and then ignore the whole situation.  And you think 17 million Quarians are going to somehow cause problems for the Alliance? By mining planets? Meh.

And after what the Turians and Salarians did to the Krogan, you think they haven't engaged in this kind of action? Krogan invade a few planets and they get bombed back into the stone age and hit with the genophage. Batarians carry off tens and hundreds of thousands into brutul torture and slavery and you think they would seriously object to us doing whatever is necessary to resolve the problem? Heck, I bet their counting on it. Its why they "gave" us colonization rights in Batarian claimed space to begin with. They've been pushing us towards this for decades.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 03 mars 2011 - 04:25 .

[Xivai]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Xivai wrote...

Uh, yea it is. I never said they were winning, but they certainly gave it their best shot. You generally don't send in the freaking military to deal with small insurgents, you stop it before it happens. Much as you hate to admit it, wars aren't fought with mass attritional battle anymore. It's getting more small scale. The cost of an all out attack on anything is suicidal. So what? You launch an attack on the Batarians. Seeing the weak state the Alliance is in the Quarians decide to try and get away with mining some more planets otherwise be fended off from.

Turians would blame the goddamn jackass human dictators for getting the galaxy in such a precarious position and vow to destroy us in our weakened state. The Volus would by nature be forced to cripple our interstellar economy if the Turians declared war. All Alliance assets would be frozen, now we would just be a bunch of stupid ****s who bit off more than we could chew. Not to mention the almost total destruction of the Batarians. Many would get up in arms and form rebel or outright terrorist group against us. Then you get the alliance protracted into a long and bloody guerrilla war. Hell if you destroy the Batarians out right the rest of the galaxy sympathizes with them. Humans look like they have a total knee jerk reaction to their culture.

We have the Turians and their immense fleet looming in, human economy in devastation by the Volus, and Batarian Rebels and their sympathisers. With such a strong presence, and with fear from us and the need to present a straight face I have no doubt Salarians and Asari would be dragged into it for diplomatic reasons. Then the little upstart **** stain humanity get's glassed off the face of the universe. Everything was perfect (in a sense) until we showed up, we just made things even worse.

Good ****ing job you really thought that through didn't you? By attacking the Batarians, you only become what your trying to stop. If anything you set off a chain reaction, it's not in the Turians nature to give quarter with any opponent.

Wars are not getting more small scale. We haven't had a real war since WWII. Since then, there have only been minor skirmishes or wars against insignificant powers. We can thank MAD for that.

But the Batarian slavers are not small scale. It's a massive operation fully backed by the Batarian government. It cannot be defeated until the Batarian government is dealt with.

Further, the council deliberately encouraged humanity to settle on the edge of the Terminus systems because they knew we would clash with the Batarians. This is like the Spectres on a massive scale. Send someone else in to do your dirty work and then ignore the whole situation.  And you think 17 million Quarians are going to somehow cause problems for the Alliance? By mining planets? Meh.

And after what the Turians and Salarians did to the Krogan, you think they haven't engaged in this kind of action? Krogan invade a few planets and they get bombed back into the stone age and hit with the genophage. Batarians carry off tens and hundreds of thousands into brutul torture and slavery and you think they would seriously object to us doing whatever is necessary to resolve the problem? Heck, I bet their counting on it. Its why they "gave" us colonization rights in Batarian claimed space to begin with. They've been pushing us towards this for decades.

Dealing with their government requires the near complete erradicaiton of their entire species? Deal with the government. I can understand that, but your trying to justify almost total anihilaiton against innocent people and bystanders just to catch the people causing you so much problems.

The Krogan were kicking the **** out of the galaxy, they only got bombed back into tthe Stoneage due to a concentrated effort by the various species. We've all seen how well this worked out first it was the Krogan needed to quell Rachni, Turians, and now Humans. Who's going to come after us after we start to rock the boat a little bit too much? Wouldn't you rather humanity learn from the mistakes of the galaxy and proceed with alternative routes rather than a costly attack that's only going to repeat the cycle?The Salarians and Turians didn't have a clear line of communication. It wasn't made clear to use the genophage unless it was absolutely necessary. Unfortunately the Turians didn't get the memo and deployed it at once.

The real galaxy hasn't had any wars against contemporary species either. They were up against foes where Mass Warfare was the only option. You don't see any other species doing that, they know they don't have the resources or breeding capacity to afford such a large scale attack against another kind of species. Until the Krogan showed up the council was losing in attritinal warfare. Now you've just so happened to stumble accross a species that mass warfare might bring about some bad reprecussions due to their technological edge. While dubious if either a Rachni or Krogan can manufacture a cure to something like the genophage it is easily within reach of someone like the Batarians. It's likely that the Batarians would resort to chemical warfare or similar plans to the genophage. An attack on them could be more costly in the long run than you realize.

Did you ever think the Council sent humanity out there to get rid of a problem and try to slow us down? They knew we were a threat the instant they met us accross the Mass Relay. If it weren't for Asari intervention we would have been bombed into oblivion and joined as a member species of the Turians.

[Whatever42]

Hardly. We could have taken the Turians, we proved that. And if the Council hope the Batarians would take us out, that's their problem. They can't blame us for defending ourselves - and them - from the Batarian scum. But considering that Batarians have enslaved thousands of their species and launched attacks on the citadel itself, I seriously doubt slowing us down was their aim. The Batarians are the disease and we're the cure.

And the Krogan were attacking other worlds, as I understand it, but the full scale war was undoubtedly started by the council who needed to teach the Krogan to mind their place. The council being "good" is a poor myth. They'll do what's best for themselves every time. But I agree that the Krogan needed to be reduced and controlled. Fortunately, it looks like they can adapt and become civilized.

And I'm not saying that the erradication of the Batarians is necessarily necessary. If we can reduce them and control them then there would be no need to eradicate them. The council had no problem extinguishing the Rachni but we're better than them.

You know, I bet we could cure the genophage. The Krogan would make good allies for humanity...

[Xivai]

Please let's not make some silly claims. We didn't stand a chance against the Turians. We held back a scout fleet, they were mobilizing a vast armada to crush us. Way more ships and men than we ever had, hell we would never have had the production in place to beat back a force of that size. That's a well established fact, the Asari intervened to save us. First contact war would have been renamed holy Turian liberation day if it weren't for them.

And no the Krogan started the war. Ambassador even told them to try and take back their colonies and stormed out when they asked him to get off their planets. In comes the Turians. You bested yourself in your own argument the Krogan were far more extreme than the Batarians going so far as to obliterate their own planet. It took a nuclear sized school of hard knocks but at the end of the day they got better so to speak. This also sets a precedent that yes the alien species can with varying degrees adapt to human morals and we to theirs to some degree.

So now we look at the Batarians and the only thing you can say is wipe them out? Or well the majority of them? The lore is showing you nothing but examples of how your wrong. The council is also easily able to tell when a species is not fit to merge into galactic society. Look at the shadow brokers species, deemed unfit for joining the wider community due to cultural and biological reasons. So now on scientific basis your argument is falling apart, this would have been an easy enough test to conduct on the Batarians. Hell I bet it's even standardized.

Curing the genophage is a whole other debate.

[casedawgz]

The reason there are still batarians is simple; my Shepard is incapable of being in all places simultaneously.

[armass]

We could beat the turians? Please... I mean I can prove how much advantage they have over us and this example is from the modern 2185. Keep in mind first contact war was 27 years prior.

Turian colony of Invictus: Population 320 million (official) true that 3rd of it might be other species, but still
Largest human colony of Terra Nova: Population around 5 million tops

Numbers people. I rest my case.

(the fact that humans can rival them militarily in 25 years not to mention all other 2 council races after reading this still makes absolutely no sense statistics wise. The story claims humans can rival the council races now, but the numbers dont match anywhere near no matter how you look it, population or dreadnought ration wise. A major plothole or just bad retconning and storytelling?)

Modifié par armass, 03 mars 2011 - 11:50 .

[Whatever42]

Fine, fine, the turians would have eventually beaten us. But they didn't. And you just set back your own arugment. The Turians were ready to obliterate us for doing absolutely nothing except fight some minor skirmish with them. We didn't attack their colonies. We didn't enslave them by the tens-of-thousands. And the Asari only stopped them when it looked like all-out-war, against a species that did practically nothing to them.

So this peace loving council, who committed genocide against the Rachni, who employs spectres and crushes new species who get uppity, turn around and encourage they new, warlike race to settle Batarian claimed space. The same Batarians who have been a thorn in their side. Trust me, they want us to take out the Batarians.

And, yes, the Krogan took a few colonies but so have the Batarians. I agree that the Krogan were probably a greater threat to Council, thus they acted directly, but it proves again that the Council is not some peace-loving group of people. These are cynical, self-interested people. They just run the galaxy on a balance sheet - its only worth going to war for them if the numbers add up in the profit/loss columns. Throwing the Earth against the viscious, trouble-making slaving Batarians is a good investment for them.

[armass]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Fine, fine, the turians would have eventually beaten us. But they didn't. And you just set back your own arugment. The Turians were ready to obliterate us for doing absolutely nothing except fight some minor skirmish with them. We didn't attack their colonies. We didn't enslave them by the tens-of-thousands. And the Asari only stopped them when it looked like all-out-war, against a species that did practically nothing to them.

So this peace loving council, who committed genocide against the Rachni, who employs spectres and crushes new species who get uppity, turn around and encourage they new, warlike race to settle Batarian claimed space. The same Batarians who have been a thorn in their side. Trust me, they want us to take out the Batarians.

And, yes, the Krogan took a few colonies but so have the Batarians. I agree that the Krogan were probably a greater threat to Council, thus they acted directly, but it proves again that the Council is not some peace-loving group of people. These are cynical, self-interested people. They just run the galaxy on a balance sheet - its only worth going to war for them if the numbers add up in the profit/loss columns. Throwing the Earth against the viscious, trouble-making slaving Batarians is a good investment for them.

I agree that the turians jumped the gun when they attacked shanxi. Turians have somewhat colonial attitude towards the rest of the galaxy not unlike that of the former British empire, honestly I think they propably tought they saw another minor species they could just include into the hierarchy without any more problems and got really pissed when we actually fought back succesfully.

Batarians might be trouble if they team up with the rest of terminus species to declare war on Citadel, but other than that council propably sees it only as humanity's problem and doesnt want to interfere. Who knows, theyre mostly blind anyway, only enjoying their status quo. I still think genociding a species is wrong. In any matter. Batarians are like some fanatical middle eastern or african countries, they rattle sabers and do horrible things like slavery but i doubt anyone would like to nuke the whole populace out for that. Normal citizens of those countries are not the war like slavers that theyr goverment is, quite the opposite infact as ive watched.

Modifié par armass, 03 mars 2011 - 01:57 .

[Whatever42]

I agree. But we can contain and control most of the current fanatical countries on Earth because they are small. The Batarians actively support large scale slaving operations against humans. Can you imagine any nation ignoring that if they were capable of stopping it? Read the description of some of the Batarian controlled worlds - these are not small scale operators.

And I'm against genocide as well. But like the Krogan, we have to go as far as necessary to prevent them from being a threat. If like the Krogan, the Batarians are too insanely stubborn to stop then we go as far as it takes. That very likely does not mean genocide but the Batarians need their rotten civilization pulled down.

[armass]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I agree. But we can contain and control most of the current fanatical countries on Earth because they are small. The Batarians actively support large scale slaving operations against humans. Can you imagine any nation ignoring that if they were capable of stopping it? Read the description of some of the Batarian controlled worlds - these are not small scale operators.

And I'm against genocide as well. But like the Krogan, we have to go as far as necessary to prevent them from being a threat. If like the Krogan, the Batarians are too insanely stubborn to stop then we go as far as it takes. That very likely does not mean genocide but the Batarians need their rotten civilization pulled down.

I think batarians really need a change of goverment, but it is better if their own citizens decide to do it rather than some other species enforcing it. Look what happened in Iraq.  Let's just hope that the reaper war truly changes their whole perspective on things. Im pretty sure batarian goverment will be reduced to rubbles in the reaper war and maybe that gives a chance on their citizens to rebuild it to a more better goverment with other species help

i am pretty sure batarian citizens are just as capable of good and evil as those of human. They just dont know, since the their goverment controls the media and media can and will whip any nation into war frenzy infront of external threats. Earth has plenty of examples of this.

Modifié par armass, 03 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[DRSH]

Batarians exist because they endure.

[Whatever42]

armass wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I agree. But we can contain and control most of the current fanatical countries on Earth because they are small. The Batarians actively support large scale slaving operations against humans. Can you imagine any nation ignoring that if they were capable of stopping it? Read the description of some of the Batarian controlled worlds - these are not small scale operators.

And I'm against genocide as well. But like the Krogan, we have to go as far as necessary to prevent them from being a threat. If like the Krogan, the Batarians are too insanely stubborn to stop then we go as far as it takes. That very likely does not mean genocide but the Batarians need their rotten civilization pulled down.

I think batarians really need a change of goverment, but it is better if their own citizens decide to do it rather than some other species enforcing it. Look what happened in Iraq.  Let's just hope that the reaper war truly changes their whole perspective on things. Im pretty sure batarian goverment will be reduced to rubbles in the reaper war and maybe that gives a chance on their citizens to rebuild it to a more better goverment with other species help

i am pretty sure batarian citizens are just as capable of good and evil as those of human. They just dont know, since the their goverment controls the media and media can and will whip any nation into war frenzy infront of external threats. Earth has plenty of examples of this.

Forcing government change is different than dictating what government that will be. I don't care who rules the Batarians as long as they stop slaving. We just keep kicking them in the head until they behave. Its a lot easier than occupation. I don't insist that every Batarian behave any more than any human or any turian behaves. But all those Batarian worlds filled with slaves need to be liberated.

And we don't really know for sure if the Batarians are just like humans. It's possible. It's even probable so there is likely little real argument here. However, it's also possible that they are like Krogan and won't stop until they know they're on the verge of extinction. The Krogan could have easily gone extinct with the genophage.  Fortunately, they stopped before it was too late. But the council was willing to live with that and I'd be willing to live with the same thing happening to the Batarians.

[Xivai]

Go take your easy path and repeat the mistakes the game is trying to show you. Over and over, look at the codex once in awhile. I also think they have to be freed, but not through war. Not unless all other options have been exhausted first.

The council didn't get a say in the use of the genophage. We have no idea if they would have advocated such extreme measures. The Batarians are a totalitarian regime, who knows how much or little the average citizen knows. We have no idea of their opinions. Your just willing to risk and hope the majority of them are blood thirsty slavers to justfity genocide. Then look at the Skillian blitz. It may have been Batarian funded, but it was led by a human. Should we be eradicated because we led that massive attack on ourselves? Not to mention we have never seen the Batarians actual military. I have no doubt it's quite formidable, at least on par with the Systems Alliance pre-council. No if they were anything like the Krogan I'm sure they would have had to have been put down already. Immediately after finding the Krogan they were put to use against the Rachni, and then at an indeterminable but not long time thereafter they had to be put down in turn. This happened within a few hundred years. Look at the Batarians, they joined the embassy 200BC the Krogan discovery was 2000BC. Krogans led to imminent war and destruction in the span of a few hundred years. Batarians have been among the galactic community for almost 2,500 years. You don't think in all of that time if they were really a super gigantic problem they could be put down?

There's human slavery active on this planet now. Should we wipe out these countries for a few slavers and slave owners? Or should we punish the people actually committing the crime. In this case the Batarian government, but an all out war isn't likely necessary. At least the goal wouldn't be the destruction (or near destruction) of their species

[Whatever42]

The Salarians created the genophage. That was a council race. The Turians deployed the genophage and was rewarded a seat on the council for doing so. It was wholly approved. The council just dislikes taking responsibility for anything. Hence the spectres.

They won't take a direct hand against the Batarians because it doesn't add up in the profit/loss column for them. However, they have no qualms in manipulating us into direct conflict with them.

And I agree taking out the Batarians would be hard. That's why humanity needs to grow stronger (keeping the collector base, for example). Of course, where we have common interests with the other council races (such as stopping the Reapers) we need to work together. But in this case, where the council has thrown us into direct conflict, humanity is apparently on its own and must take appropriate steps to protect ourselves.

And if those countries were abducting thousands and ten-of-thousands of people from western countries and torturing and enslaving them, you bet there would be a massive army rolling over their borders in no time. Tiny nations that abuse their own people we ignore.

[Xivai]

The Turians were rewarded a seat on the council for defeating the Krogan. Not the use of the genophage, they would have approved either way. Salarians have their own special operatives that hide stuff from the council. It's doubtful the council knew about it until after the Salarians/Turians plan was in full action. After all they handed the reigns to the Turians without keeping proper check on them.

Taking out the Batarians and all of the other species that would rally behind them would be suicidal. We sitll have no idea if they are being manipulated like the Rachni. The council didn't throw us anywhere, it was on our own prerogative we decided to start settling there. We were even warned about the outlying Batarian problem, through luck or skill it just so happened to turn in our favour.

Your getting the scale mixed up. The Batarians take hundreds of thousands out of a galactic population that is no doubt into the trillions at this point. We have to appropriately scale that back to an earth sized population. Not only this, but they vary their targets to any country so from each individual country your only going to be losing a few hundred to a few thousand. This hypothetical slaver nation would be lucky to hit a hundred thousand slaves a year with that kind of operation. I sincerely doubt the world would unite for save a mere hundred thousand a year. Unless you chucked in some kind of incentive for them to do so.