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[Spectre_907]

The Council rejects your claims because Vigil's hologram on Ilos shut itself down and found insufficient evidence to conclude that Soveriegn was not a geth construct. We still have the memories of Vigil. A mind meld with Councilor Tevos will allow for her to see what Vigil said. But there ought to be empirical evidence that can verify what Vigil said and that Sovereign is not of geth origin. Otherwise, Tevos will just say you are deluded.

Chorban's research data on the Keepers might be that evidence.  I think it might, at the very least, motivate the Council to investigate the matter.

[J. Finley]

I thought Liara was the only one who could make sense of it, given her time researching the Protheans.

[Hanar Shakespeare]

Too bad they're not TimeLords.

[2kgnsiika]

IT IS A PLOTHOLE:

If the asari councilor believes melded with Shepard, she would have to come to one of two conclusions:

1) Shepard is absolutely bonkers and should not be a Spectre
OR
2) Shepard is not crazy, so the Reapers must exist

But she does not believe Shepard is crazy, because she wants to reinstate him. She does believe, however, that Shepard is hallucinating or something, so there is a clear contradiction.

Modifié par 2kgnsiika, 01 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[JRCHOharry]

Nashiktal wrote...

It's a plothole that has been discussed over and over again on these forums. The main argument seems to be that it isn't a "proper" thing for a councilor to do, and would be unorthodox to ask a leader of such importance as her.

It's a shaky argument but you take what you can get eh?

Uh... No. Its not a plot hole. What would the councillor gain from looking at the visions? A bunch of meaningless images, just as they are for Shepard. Liara can make sense of them because she recognises some of the details from her research of the Protheans.

[tonnactus]

Moiaussi wrote...


That isn't strictly true. If the melding was done by a trained
professional who studies mental instability, and/or an archaeologist who
studies the Protheans, it could have revealed quite a bit.

The asari counselor isnt such a person.And its unkown how much asari medicals know about other races.(humans are "new" anyway)

And that shepardt saw something prothean prooves nothing.Could have been from a picture(liara know about ilos because of that).

[Moiaussi]

tonnactus wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...


That isn't strictly true. If the melding was done by a trained
professional who studies mental instability, and/or an archaeologist who
studies the Protheans, it could have revealed quite a bit.

The asari counselor isnt such a person.And its unkown how much asari medicals know about other races.(humans are "new" anyway)

And that shepardt saw something prothean prooves nothing.Could have been from a picture(liara know about ilos because of that).

Even if the councellor isn't there are other Asari who are. She didn't have to do the meld personally for the OP's point to be valid

While it could be 'from a picture', that would be part of Shepard's memories and she should be able to find an image of the original picture if that was the case.

[chapa3]

2kgnsiika wrote...
But she does not believe Shepard is crazy, because she wants to reinstate him. She does believe, however, that Shepard is hallucinating or something, so there is a clear contradiction.

There is some truth to that. The Turian counciler said that Shepard's Reaper Visons were "a product of (shepard's) fragile mind", and that Cerberus is manipulating him just like Saren. They then reinstate Shepard's Spectre status. Rather suspicious.

[Scimal]

2kgnsiika wrote...

IT IS A PLOTHOLE:

If the asari councilor believes melded with Shepard, she would have to come to one of two conclusions:

1) Shepard is absolutely bonkers and should not be a Spectre

... Which is precisely what happened in ME2. Shepard was given the title back with nothing but the name thanks to saving their arses from Sovereign if you did so. Even the human Counselor tells you it's basically a brush-off.

2) Shepard is not crazy, so the Reapers must exist

But she does not believe Shepard is crazy, because she wants to reinstate him. She does believe, however, that Shepard is hallucinating or something, so there is a clear contradiction.

You must've missed the context of the conversation. Basically, Shepard is given the title back because he's a hero that saved the Citadel from Sovereign - he wasn't allowed access to C-sec again, he wasn't allowed to buy special Spectre gear, he's not given permission to operate within Citadel space, and it's never announced anywhere that Shepard's a Spectre again - only that he's alive.

If Shepard chooses to retake the title, it's the name only. Shepard is not so much a Spectre as a single crazy person running around the Terminus systems (which they don't get involved with) fighting his delusions to the Council.

Think of it like an Honorary Degree. If you do something fantastic in a field you haven't Majored in, a College can give you an Honorary Degree - but it's nothing more than something to add to your repertoire. You can't teach with it, you can't use it in journals with credulity, etc.

Modifié par Scimal, 01 mars 2011 - 11:33 .

[Scimal]

Moiaussi wrote...


That isn't strictly true. If the melding was done by a trained professional who studies mental instability, and/or an archaeologist who studies the Protheans, it could have revealed quite a bit.

If I hold up a picture of me riding a camel and one of me riding an elephant, which one is false?

Could you tell from the images alone? No. That's what Mind-Meld "Lite" does - it's just images. Not experiences, and nothing that could indicate lies or truths.

Plus, a trained professional would probably put Shep in a mental ward. Given that the Council hasn't found any significant evidence of Shepard's conspiracy theory, Shep's an armed individual with military training who may be severely mentally unstable and seeing conspiracy theories. Apocalypse Now anyone?

For example, if Shepard's visions included prothean structures or other information that an expert could identify as Prothean, then there could be evidence that Shep had some actual knowledge in there given no exposure to such sites.

But Shepard has had extensive exposure to Prothean ruins by the end of ME1, and it's only in ME2 that we learn the Council can't find any significant proof.

Similarly, an Asari expert on the mind could have examined Shepard for the alleged instabilities. Note that there is no medical report declaring Shepard unstable or delusional. That is just an accusation by the Council, who regardless of any training they might have, have not properly examined Shepard nor made any actual medical assessment other than that of a lay person.

I'm quite confident that having an expert examine Shepard would not clear him.

[Naughty Bear]

So if Shep mind weld with Asari, could he fool them into showing them the visions but instead think of two girls one cup and the counsillor is forced to watch it?

[tonnactus]

Moiaussi wrote...


Even if the councellor isn't there are other Asari who are.

Why an asari should study/know something about human psychology???

[2kgnsiika]

Scimal wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

IT IS A PLOTHOLE:

If the asari councilor believes melded with Shepard, she would have to come to one of two conclusions:

1) Shepard is absolutely bonkers and should not be a Spectre

... Which is precisely what happened in ME2. Shepard was given the title back with nothing but the name thanks to saving their arses from Sovereign if you did so. Even the human Counselor tells you it's basically a brush-off.

2) Shepard is not crazy, so the Reapers must exist

But she does not believe Shepard is crazy, because she wants to reinstate him. She does believe, however, that Shepard is hallucinating or something, so there is a clear contradiction.

You must've missed the context of the conversation. Basically, Shepard is given the title back because he's a hero that saved the Citadel from Sovereign - he wasn't allowed access to C-sec again, he wasn't allowed to buy special Spectre gear, he's not given permission to operate within Citadel space, and it's never announced anywhere that Shepard's a Spectre again - only that he's alive.

If Shepard chooses to retake the title, it's the name only. Shepard is not so much a Spectre as a single crazy person running around the Terminus systems (which they don't get involved with) fighting his delusions to the Council.

Think of it like an Honorary Degree. If you do something fantastic in a field you haven't Majored in, a College can give you an Honorary Degree - but it's nothing more than something to add to your repertoire. You can't teach with it, you can't use it in journals with credulity, etc.

That's just ridiculous. There's no such thing as an honorary Spectre. You're either a Spectre or you're not. If you are, you get to do pretty much anything you want and get away with it. The Council may be full of unprincipled politicians, but they're not going to give a crazy, delusional man a legal carte blanche just so he'll go away. What if Shepard is unstable and beats up a criminal suspect in C-Sec custody, then says he's a Spectre so the suspect's lawyer can't do anything? What if he kills a hostage (who happens to be a prominent politicial, no less) on purpose in the presence of C-Sec officers? He can also clear people 

The also something else wrong with your reasoning. Just because the player can't go to C-Sec and buy Spectre gear in the game doesn't mean Shepard's not allowed to do it. You also can't rob Morlan in ME1 even though you could get away with it as a Spectre. Nowhere is it said that Shepard can't do any of these things, because gameplay =/= lore.

If I had to guess what the writers had in mind when Anderson mentions the symbolic nature of the reinstatement, I'd say it has to do with getting Council intel and political and military backup. Shepard is a Spectre but the Council is going out of its way to keep a long distance.

So, my original point stands. The Council clearly trusts Shepard's judgement enough to grant him extra-legal powers, but thinks he's delusional. The asari councilor could meld with Shepard and see everything he's seen (like talking to Vigil) but she thinks Shepard (and two of his crewmates) were hallucinating or something. I guess it's possible that the Councilors are just plain stupid, but if your average 21st century gamer can spot this problem, you'd expect the political leadership of the galaxy to fare a little better.

EDIT: Spelling fail

Modifié par 2kgnsiika, 02 mars 2011 - 12:35 .

[tonnactus]

Scimal wrote...
Basically, Shepard is given the title back because he's a hero that saved the Citadel from Sovereign - he wasn't allowed access to C-sec again, he wasn't allowed to buy special Spectre gear, he's not given permission to operate within Citadel space, and it's never announced anywhere that Shepard's a Spectre again - only that he's alive.

That is wrong.How vasir knew that shepardt was reinstated? The citadel security officer also knew it.

[LeVaughnX]

Scimal wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

It's a plothole that has been discussed over and over again on these forums. The main argument seems to be that it isn't a "proper" thing for a councilor to do, and would be unorthodox to ask a leader of such importance as her.

It's a shaky argument but you take what you can get eh?

le sigh...

It's not a plot hole.

Here's the thing; the Asari mind-meld can't tell whether or not someone's lying or delusional. It's a passive observance of thoughts, not an active dredging of memories.

They may have briefly believed Shepard's story about the Reaper at the end of ME1, but because Sovereign was never recovered to any significant degree (perhaps because nanobots destroying the Reaper tech or smugglers), Vigil was never recovered, and nobody else was present on Virmire to see the Reaper hologram... The easiest explanation (note: not correct, but easiest and least threatening - which is the one we usually prefer) is that Shepard had been mind-jacked by the Beacon on Eden Prime and Saren.

Since they believe that Shepard believe's the threat is real, mind-melding with Shepard would only reveal that he has constructed his delusion to an unfortunate degree - not that he's telling the truth, since the difference between the two would be impossible to tell via mind-melding.

So let me get this straight....Mass Effect 2 could have been one massive "lie" then? In theory your Shepard could have died on Feros during ME1 (acording to your logic). When you were "mind-melding" with the Asari near the Thorian (sp?) - could she / he have actually caused you (Shepard) to believe and see something else?....Could that mean...everything in Mass Effect as a whole is flawed?...

Or does that just mean that the council is a bunch of cannon fodder who should have been killed in the first place so Garrus, Tali, Wrex and the others could have effectively taken a leadership position in this time of trouble...Wait..nevermind...Thats just what my common sense would tell me would happen...

Okay okay wait I got it...Since the council acts basically like how greedy chicken sh*t people act in real life who have power; does that mean they are just being incompetitant arsehats who just have their noses in the air? Pretty much!


[Edit] I'm also confused about something else.....How come Anderson is such a push-over whiner in ME2 yet in ME1 and in the books hes an epic badarse who doesn't take crap?.....And if Humanity was at stake - someone from Cerberus (one of the many higher ups) would probably have told the Alliance (dur - pro human!) meaning the Reaper threat should be going public asap......Right?.....Damn it all I can't stand this plot-holertry!!!!

Modifié par LeVaughnX, 02 mars 2011 - 12:40 .

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Scimal wrote...

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...


That isn't strictly true. If the melding was done by a trained professional who studies mental instability, and/or an archaeologist who studies the Protheans, it could have revealed quite a bit.[/quote]

If I hold up a picture of me riding a camel and one of me riding an elephant, which one is false?[/quote]

Could you tell from the images alone? No. That's what Mind-Meld "Lite" does - it's just images. Not experiences, and nothing that could indicate lies or truths.[/quote]

You are looking at this as if the viewer is not only looking at snapshots, but magically finds only specific snapshots. For the cypher to have been passed to Shepard mentally, the Asari must be able to do more than look at snapshots. Ditto for Liara being able to sort the information Shepard carried and to help him process it.

If there were images in the mind of someone riding a camel and images in the same mind of someone riding an elephant, but no images at all of that someone having ever seen a camel otherwise nor of anyone ever telling them it was a camel, then either they somehow miraculously imagined a camel spontaneously or that image came from an outside source other than conventional life experience.

How does the consort know prophecy from conventional dream? We know for a fact that there is a level of accuracy to them, that she is a true prophet. These are concepts known the the Asari.

[quote]Plus, a trained professional would probably put Shep in a mental ward. Given that the Council hasn't found any significant evidence of Shepard's conspiracy theory, Shep's an armed individual with military training who may be severely mentally unstable and seeing conspiracy theories. Apocalypse Now anyone?[/quote]

You are talking again as if such concepts really are purely madness. but as I pointed out, there are Asari who have real prophetic ability. As for a lack of evidence, at the initial encounter with the beacon, Shepard knowing things that he didn't have access to otherwise is strong evidence.

TIM's concielment of evidence notwithstanding there is plenty. Vigil being powered down doesn't deny its existance. The memories of the other crew could be examined too, and guess what... not only do their stories match, but their memories match too, precisely accurately.

Differences between Sovereign and any Geth tech have been discussed at length, most notably the fact that the Thanix cannons based on Reaper design were so easy to develop and so easily deployed that a frigate can fabricate them refit with them seemlessly with no spare parts from outside and no need for a stardock nor with any delays.

[quote]But Shepard has had extensive exposure to Prothean ruins by the end of ME1, and it's only in ME2 that we learn the Council can't find any significant proof.[/quote]

At the beginning, he did not. At the end of ME1, the Council seemed to accept his statements. By the end he also was fluent in Prothean, which should have allowed him to make translations no other scholars could. That is rather strong proof right there. And again, by the end of ME1, the discussion with Vigil could have been collaborated by proper interrogation of the other crew members. Even without memory probes that should have been possible, but mind melding would have cinched it.

[quote]I'm quite confident that having an expert examine Shepard would not clear him.[/quote]

Well yes, but you have not given any explaination for your confidence other than shrugging and saying he sounded crazy to you.

[Jimbe2693]

There should be a romance option. :innocent:

[Jimbe2693]

[double-post]

Modifié par Jimbe2693, 02 mars 2011 - 12:46 .

[Moiaussi]

tonnactus wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Even if the councellor isn't there are other Asari who are.

Why an asari should study/know something about human psychology???

You are right of course.... a race that specializes in xeno-diplomacy and whose culture insists on mating with other species (including humans) would have no interest in human psychology at all.... none.... I was foolish to even suggest it....

/sarcasm off

[Moiaussi]

tonnactus wrote...

Scimal wrote...
Basically, Shepard is given the title back because he's a hero that saved the Citadel from Sovereign - he wasn't allowed access to C-sec again, he wasn't allowed to buy special Spectre gear, he's not given permission to operate within Citadel space, and it's never announced anywhere that Shepard's a Spectre again - only that he's alive.

That is wrong.How vasir knew that shepardt was reinstated? The citadel security officer also knew it.

The whole reinstatement is bogus anyway considering he was never officially pronounced dead, hence the C-sec officer assuming it was a computer malfunction or bad entry rather than being shocked to find Shepard alive. There were rumours of his death but officially he was alive and unless the Council really wanted to try to explain to the press why he was disbanded, still officially a Spectre.

ME2 sort of tossed the whole spectre concept out the window anyway. I think the writers just didn't want to bother with it....

[DPSSOC]

2kgnsiika wrote...

IT IS A PLOTHOLE:

If the asari councilor believes melded with Shepard, she would have to come to one of two conclusions:

1) Shepard is absolutely bonkers and should not be a Spectre
OR
2) Shepard is not crazy, so the Reapers must exist

But she does not believe Shepard is crazy, because she wants to reinstate him. She does believe, however, that Shepard is hallucinating or something, so there is a clear contradiction.

She doesn't have to believe that Shepard's crazy to believe he's been tricked into believing that something that isn't real is.  For example I don't believe that my friend's god exists, that does not necessarily mean I believe my friend is crazy for believing it does.  Shepard was exposed to something and drew conclusions; his conclusions being wrong doesn't make him crazy.

As for why no mind meld anything gained from that is going to be coloured by Shepard (it's not like a video recording).  And she says outright, "We believe that you believe, but that doesn't make it true."  She would be able to see what Shepard believes he saw, as coloured by his perceptions and beliefs.

[Homey C-Dawg]

I think the answer is something much more simple.

The asari counselor, just like the other two, does not want to believe in the reapers. IMO it's as simple as that. Had Shepard suggested it (which would have been a nice dialog option), the asari counselor would probably have pulled out any one of the numerous excuses listed in this thread.

In other words, I don't think she would agree to it even if it was/is a valid option. To a politician, not rocking the boat is more important than fixing the hole.

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 02 mars 2011 - 01:03 .

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

She doesn't have to believe that Shepard's crazy to believe he's been tricked into believing that something that isn't real is.  For example I don't believe that my friend's god exists, that does not necessarily mean I believe my friend is crazy for believing it does.  Shepard was exposed to something and drew conclusions; his conclusions being wrong doesn't make him crazy.

As for why no mind meld anything gained from that is going to be coloured by Shepard (it's not like a video recording).  And she says outright, "We believe that you believe, but that doesn't make it true."  She would be able to see what Shepard believes he saw, as coloured by his perceptions and beliefs.

But a mind meld would have let someone else 'see what he saw', as well as what he knew otherwise. If Liara could sort out the information to make it useful to Shepard, someone more experienced and a specialist should have been able to do that and more.

If Shepard 'saw' things that didn't come from his life experiences but could be confirmed independantly, then it would provide evidence that there might have been more to this.

[Rekkampum]

2kgnsiika wrote...

IT IS A PLOTHOLE:

If the asari councilor believes melded with Shepard, she would have to come to one of two conclusions:

1) Shepard is absolutely bonkers and should not be a Spectre
OR
2) Shepard is not crazy, so the Reapers must exist

But she does not believe Shepard is crazy, because she wants to reinstate him. She does believe, however, that Shepard is hallucinating or something, so there is a clear contradiction.

It is a plot hole, but not for those reasons. As they mentioned before, Saren could have simply manipulated Shepard into believing in the Reaper threat. He doesn't necessarily have to be crazy in order to be misled. 

Now here's the real reason this is a plot hole:

Enter any one of Shepard's allies, which the same process can be performed (no pun intended) on to corroborate Shepard's theories. Especially the Vigil scene, since two of your allies accompanied you to the VI on Ilos, and therefore, whose memories will corroborate Shepard's immaculately. The same could be done to verify his claim about Sovereign being a Reaper, since three people were present at the encounter on Virmire. So on and so forth. Killing Shepard off so that a significant amount of time has passed since the original event is perhaps is the only logical solution to this problem- either the Council has been replaced by human pawns due to the Citadel battle or they've had no opportunity to allow Shepard to contest their findings, given his death. It's a huge plot rash. 

[Hanar Shakespeare]

Is this thread regarding the Asari we saw in hologram form in Anderson's office? If so, how can Shephard mind meld with room's and floors separating him or her from the Asari?