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[Rekkampum]

Hanar Shakespeare wrote...

Is this thread regarding the Asari we saw in hologram form in Anderson's office? If so, how can Shephard mind meld with room's and floors separating him or her from the Asari?

It's the Asari Councilor. To note, him being a Spectre, he could arrange a meeting with her - probably by having Liara lobby for him, given her clout as Benezia's daughter.

[Moiaussi]

Hanar Shakespeare wrote...

Is this thread regarding the Asari we saw in hologram form in Anderson's office? If so, how can Shephard mind meld with room's and floors separating him or her from the Asari?

In ME1 the initial accusations against Saren are made formally, with the Council actually present. Regardless, any melding didn't have to be done on the spot, it could have been arraged under more appropriate circumstances.

[Scimal]

You are looking at this as if the viewer is not only looking at snapshots, but magically finds only specific snapshots. For the cypher to have been passed to Shepard mentally, the Asari must be able to do more than look at snapshots. Ditto for Liara being able to sort the information Shepard carried and to help him process it.

If we expand 'snapshots' to sensory information, Shiala basically transferred several Prothean lifetimes' worth of information to Shep - but not their mental capacity or what made them unique. It was an information blitz, one taken willingly by Shepard, and given willingly by Shiala.

Liara also specifically asked for the information, so it was readily available. There's no evidence that Asari essentially seek specific memories or force the melding.

If there were images in the mind of someone riding a camel and images in the same mind of someone riding an elephant, but no images at all of that someone having ever seen a camel otherwise nor of anyone ever telling them it was a camel, then either they somehow miraculously imagined a camel spontaneously or that image came from an outside source other than conventional life experience.

Like you said, they imagined a camel spontaneously. Shepard received a mind-blow from the Beacon, so Shep could've subconsciously constructed everything around sparse bits. Shep also saw Sovereign on Eden Prime not too soon before encounting the wacky Beacon.

How does the consort know prophecy from conventional dream? We know for a fact that there is a level of accuracy to them, that she is a true prophet. These are concepts known the the Asari.

And how does this prove Shepard's sanity? Because the Consort read his aura? Because she gave Shep a trinket that allowed another Prothean artifact to shovel information into Shep's head?

She never melded with Shep, and the theory that the Consort is an "accurate" prophet isn't beyond mere coincidence yet.

You are talking again as if such concepts really are purely madness. but as I pointed out, there are Asari who have real prophetic ability. As for a lack of evidence, at the initial encounter with the beacon, Shepard knowing things that he didn't have access to otherwise is strong evidence.

The Asari "prophetic ability" seems to be perfectly on-par with human capability so far.

Plus, the Council never refused that the Beacon put information into Shepard's head. Never. What the Council believes is that Shepard is mentally unstable because of the Beacon - possibly because Saren planted information in the Beacon, or because it just messed with his head to the point that he believed Saren's lies.

TIM's concielment of evidence notwithstanding there is plenty. Vigil being powered down doesn't deny its existance. The memories of the other crew could be examined too, and guess what... not only do their stories match, but their memories match too, precisely accurately.

Being unable to be re-activated might not deny Vigil's existence, but the Council doesn't have anything to support Shepard's story other than he found  a hologram interface on Ilos.

As for the Crew, only two saw the Sovereign hologram and the Vigil hologram. Depending on who they were, they could've ditched the gig while the Citadel was being rebuilt. To the Council, the immediate threat - Sovereign - was taken care of. Their focus was entirely on rebuilding what was lost - and they were still rebuilding years later.

Considering how long it takes our current system to interview and review matters vital to national security, it's entirely plausible that the crewmembers simply skipped out before the Council could get information out of them. That doesn't look good in Shep's favor in the first place.

Ash/Kaidan would never betray their commander. Think how long it took for Abu Gharaib to hit the news, despite over a dozen people being involved.

Differences between Sovereign and any Geth tech have been discussed at length, most notably the fact that the Thanix cannons based on Reaper design were so easy to develop and so easily deployed that a frigate can fabricate them refit with them seemlessly with no spare parts from outside and no need for a stardock nor with any delays.

Rana said Saren found it out in space, just floating. Might as well have been an artifact. The Council wants to believe it's Geth tech, or tech found by the Geth.

Because of the prevalence of other ancient alien technology, there isn't any reason to suspect that Sovereign simply wasn't one-of-a-kind in that regard.

At the beginning, he did not. At the end of ME1, the Council seemed to accept his statements. By the end he also was fluent in Prothean, which should have allowed him to make translations no other scholars could.

Shepard could understand Prothean speech. Whether or not Shepard could read/write Prothean isn't revealed.

That is rather strong proof right there. And again, by the end of ME1, the discussion with Vigil could have been collaborated by proper interrogation of the other crew members. Even without memory probes that should have been possible, but mind melding would have cinched it.

Proper interrogation of the crew members might've never happened. They had districts to rebuild, security to revamp, and Shepard dies a few weeks later. After that, the crew scatters - mostly beyond the reach of the Council.

Well yes, but you have not given any explaination for your confidence other than shrugging and saying he sounded crazy to you.

Put yourself in the evaluator's shoes.

Psych: "What did the Beacon on Eden Prime show you?"
Shep: "I saw the Protheans, how they were all wiped out."
Psych: "Specifically?"
Shep: "Yes. I saw a Reaper and the massacres that followed."
Psych: "What proof do you have that this information was inherent to the Beacon, and not put there by Saren?"
Shep: "Saren was after the Beacon, why would he plant information in it?"
Psych: "Did he know you were coming?"
Shep: "He knew the Spectres were on Eden Prime, yes."
Psych: "Do you think it could've been a trap; that he could have used it and planted false information to lead you towards his own desires?"
Shep: "What I saw was real, not planted by Saren."
Pysch: "What proof do you have that he didn't tamper with it?"
Shep: "None."
Psych: "All right. This Cypher, given to you by Shiala who was possessed by the Thorian - what was its goal?"
Shep: "To allow Saren to understand Prothean culture and language."
Psych: "And she gave it to you after you saved her, correct?"
Shep: "Yes."
Psych: "Again, what's to say it wasn't a trap set by Saren?"
Shep: "Sovereign betrayed her. Why would she feed me false info?"
Psych: "In your report, you said that she willingly gave herself to the Thorian while following Benezia."
Shep: "Yes, but they were under Sovereign's Indoctrination field."
Pysch: "Right, right - the Indoctrination field. You said it emanated from Saren's flagship itself?"
Shep: "Yes. It's some sort of field that slowly turned sapient beings into obedient followers."
Psych: "An effect corroborated by one Rana Thanoptis."
Shep: "Yes, on Virmire."
Psych: "However, Rana Thanoptis was not aware of anything related to the Reapers. She thought Sovereign was an artifact that Saren had found in space without mention of it being intelligent."
Shep: "Saren did find it in space, or more likely it found him. She never spoke to it, so she probably never knew it was sentient."
Psych: "But you did?"
Shep: "Yes, and two of my team."
Psych: "And what convinced you that it was more than a simple VI?"
Shep: "The Beacon's warning. The two were clearly connected."
Psych: "The Beacon's warning which you have no clear evidence that Saren did not tamper with?"
Shep: -sigh- "Yes."
Psych: "Tell me about Liara T'Soni. You say she melded with you in order to help you understand the information the Beacon - which we've established could have been tampered with by Sovereign - gave you?"
Shep: "Yes. She was very helpful, and eventually lead me to Ilos."
Psych: "So, she received the exact same information you did, minus the Cypher?"
Shep: "Yes."
Psych: "So if the information you received from the Beacon was fake, her information was also fake?"
Shep: "But Saren couldn't have planted the information about Ilos! He didn't know how to get to Ilos! That's why he needed the Rachni Queen."
Psych: "Does it seem odd to you that the Beacon inevitably lead you to a planet that you could not reach? Do you think this could have been part of Saren's ploy, to have you run a wild goose chase?"
Shep: "I was chasing him the whole way. He may have been one step ahead the entire time, but I know when I'm being toyed with."
Psych: "Of course. Back to the Rachni Queen - it was Benezia who met you there, correct? And Benezia who gave you the coordinates of the Mu relay to reach Ilos?"
Shep: "Correct."
Psych: "And you have reiterated several times that she was under Indoctrination the entire time, save for a brief instant when she gave you the information."
Shep: "Correct."
Psych: "What proof do you have that she was not simply acting on Saren's orders and pulled a fast one on you?"
Shep: "She sacrificed herself to give me that information."
Psych: "Are you positive she did not die from wounds during your intense battle with her?"
Shep: "I'm no medic, but I'm pretty damn sure."
Psych: "Without a body to examine, it's impossible to know the true cause of death. Do you understand this?"
Shep: "Yes, but I also stand by my judgement."
Psych: "Now, on Ilos, you claim you initially found another warning that only you could understand."
Shep: "Yes. I had to catch up to Saren, so I had to find another through some heavy doors. While searching for the mechanism to open the doors, I encountered the warning."
Psych: "Which neither of your crewmates understood."
Shep: "Correct."
Psych: "And then you claim that you finally retrieved Saren's trail after some time. It was during this period of catching up to Saren that you encountered 'Vigil', right?"
Shep: "Yes, the protector of the Ilos facility. There was only enough power to supply a few minutes of conversation with Vigil before it was lost."
Psych: "Correct. Tell me, what did Vigil look like?"
Shep: "I don't know. Vigil's body was too badly scrambled to resemble anything."
Psych: "So you don't know for sure that Vigil looked Prothean?"
Shep: "No."
Psych: "And your two teammates understood Vigil?"
Shep: "Yes, Vigil learned quickly."
Psych: "But they couldn't understand the warning you encountered just a few moments before?"
Shep: "No."
Psych: "Why do you believe Vigil was a Prothean relic, and not another bread-crumb put there by Saren - who you admit had ample time?"
Shep: "Because Vigil knew about the Conduit and its purpose."
Psych: "Ah, the Conduit. Tell me about it."
Shep: "It was built by the Protheans and acted as a one-way link to the Citadel. A previous Prothean team used it to shut down the signal which would've acted as the starting point for the Reaper invasion had they not done so. Saren used it to infiltrate the Citadel from the inside, and I used it to follow him."
Psych: "I thought you said that the Mass Relays were built by the Reapers, not the Protheans?"
Shep: "This one was. They had successfully reverse engineered the Mass Relays built by the Reapers, but it was a one-way street."
Psych: "Right. Was any evidence of the Prothean team found on the Citadel?"
Shep: "No."
Psych: "Now, by the time you reached the Citadel, Saren had already taken over the Presidium due to delaying you on Ilos, correct?"
Shep: "Yes."
Psych: "At the same time, Sovereign attacked with a large Geth fleet. Now, we all have videos of Sovereign being destroyed after taking what seemed to be an enormous amount of punishment - but you say it only occurred after you defeated Sovereign's - umm - 'Cybernetic undead' form?"
Shep: "Yes. Sovereign had augmented Saren to the point that Saren could be remotely controlled, even though his biological body was no longer recognizable."
Psych: "But Saren's body was never recovered for study to confirm this?"
Shep: "Correct."
Psych: "Have any other 'Reapers' besides Sovereign been spotted?"
Shep: "No."
Psych: "Have any other Beacons given others the same warning the one on Eden Prime gave you?"
Shep: "Nobody that I can confirm, no."
Psych: "So, to sum up, nobody else has experienced a Prothean beacon like the one you did, which you admit could have been tampered with by Saren prior to your interface with it. You believe that Sovereign - Saren's flagship - was really a sentient, sapient spaceship bent on the destruction of every living thing in the Galaxy, but have no proof other than the vision that the Beacon - which we've already established as an unreliable source of information - gave you. All of your interactions with this sapient ship were through a holographic display on Virmire, a base controlled by Saren. All this before Matriarch Benezia, working for Saren on Noveria, provided you with the ability to reach a world that appeared in your vision - and apropos in Liara T'Soni's interpretation of your vision. Since her body was never recovered, her cause of death remains unknown.

Once on this world you interacted with another warning message which only you could understand, before encountering a hologram named 'Vigil' which you've no proof Saren didn't plant, and cannot be recovered to verify its origin. The information provided to you by Vigil lead you to a Prothean reconstruction of a Mass Relay which allowed you to enter the Presidium long after Saren had taken control, and fight him to the death. Twice."
Shep: .... /Renegade Punch!



So, yes, in the end you have a person who can't prove what they saw wasn't a ploy all along and may still be acting under their delusion. This person is a highly trained killer, and shows up two years after being declared KIA working for one of the enemies of the Council asking for the Council's help to fight the nightmarish creatures he claims are still lurking in Dark Space.

I'd call that certifiable.

[Moiaussi]

Scimal wrote...

If we expand 'snapshots' to sensory information, Shiala basically transferred several Prothean lifetimes' worth of information to Shep - but not their mental capacity or what made them unique. It was an information blitz, one taken willingly by Shepard, and given willingly by Shiala.

Liara also specifically asked for the information, so it was readily available. There's no evidence that Asari essentially seek specific memories or force the melding.

I take it you are big on semantics. Shiala passed on the cypher, which was she was appearantly able to separate from her other knowledge and memories so that she wasn't also passing on her favourite recipes or sexual longings or family tree. It was an information blitz, but a discrete and specific one.

In Liara's case, if the information was specificly 'ask for-able' again, it would have to be discrete, meaning that she was able to concentrate on that information and not confuse the information from the Prothean beacon and/or cypher from any horrific memories Shepard might have from his past (particularly if Shepard was on Akuze), or even from more pleasant memories of Shepard's. What is the functional difference between looking into someone's mind and 'asking for' specific memories, and doing so and looking for other specific memories, such as an alternate source for images Shepard associates with the beacon?

Like you said, they imagined a camel spontaneously. Shepard received a mind-blow from the Beacon, so Shep could've subconsciously constructed everything around sparse bits. Shep also saw Sovereign on Eden Prime not too soon before encounting the wacky Beacon.

So even though some Asari really do have prophetic visions and even though Asari can transfer mental images, concepts, etc between each other and with non-Asari, it is more believable to you that someone who has actually never encountered a camel nor had one described to him would spontaneously imagine one, despite a complete lack of reference for the image, than for the image to be the result of some sort of transfer from an outside source, in Shepard's case, the Beacon?

And how does this prove Shepard's sanity? Because the Consort read his aura? Because she gave Shep a trinket that allowed another Prothean artifact to shovel information into Shep's head?

She never melded with Shep, and the theory that the Consort is an "accurate" prophet isn't beyond mere coincidence yet.

You are taking my point to literally. The fact that such powers exist and that humans have biotic potential and in some cases rather strong biotic ability, and more over that information can be transferred directly mind to mind implies that it is plausable for Shepard to have learned things from the beacon in such a fashion, and that just because the information seems far fetched doesn't make it imagined, nor Shepard 'mad.' An assessment of Shepard's alleged madness should have been made only in the context of the source and nature of his visions.

The Asari "prophetic ability" seems to be perfectly on-par with human capability so far.

Plus, the Council never refused that the Beacon put information into Shepard's head. Never. What the Council believes is that Shepard is mentally unstable because of the Beacon - possibly because Saren planted information in the Beacon, or because it just messed with his head to the point that he believed Saren's lies.

They dismissed the concept that the vision came from the beacon rather than from Shepard himself. If your best friend tells you she is pregnant, and noone believes you because your best friend is seen as too 'pure' to have gotten herself in that condition, it isn't evidence of your madness, but of others unwillingness to accept the truth. It is possible that lack of acceptance may lead them to deem you mad, and in the absence of any professional, objective investigation, you may be treated as mad. People are wrongly accused all the time. They are even occasionally wrongfully convicted. It is more often a lynch mob mentality than actual proper investigation leading to such situations.

Being unable to be re-activated might not deny Vigil's existence, but the Council doesn't have anything to support Shepard's story other than he found  a hologram interface on Ilos.

As for the Crew, only two saw the Sovereign hologram and the Vigil hologram. Depending on who they were, they could've ditched the gig while the Citadel was being rebuilt. To the Council, the immediate threat - Sovereign - was taken care of. Their focus was entirely on rebuilding what was lost - and they were still rebuilding years later.

Considering how long it takes our current system to interview and review matters vital to national security, it's entirely plausible that the crewmembers simply skipped out before the Council could get information out of them. That doesn't look good in Shep's favor in the first place.

Ash/Kaidan would never betray their commander. Think how long it took for Abu Gharaib to hit the news, despite over a dozen people being involved.

But they all saw exactly the same discussion with Vigil. They all have exactly the same memories if probed. Proper interrogation technique would have involved separate debriefings, and their stories would still have all been the same. There was no time to coordinate stories, unless you figure in the middle of the fight on the Citadel they asked Saren politely if he could hold off a momment, they needed time to confer and Saren inexplicably complied.

You are comparing Abu Gharaib with the discussion with Vigil? Really? Torture of civilians with, in the middle of trying to save all of civilization from Saren if not from the Reapers, taking a time out to make sure Shepard doesn't appear crazy? Please tell me you have a better sense of perspective than that

Rana said Saren found it out in space, just floating. Might as well have been an artifact. The Council wants to believe it's Geth tech, or tech found by the Geth.

Because of the prevalence of other ancient alien technology, there isn't any reason to suspect that Sovereign simply wasn't one-of-a-kind in that regard.

A completely unexplained piece of technology of which their might be more and of which it is reasonable to conclude that Saren would want to have reverse engineered even if the Geth hadn't. The implication is that despite everything else Saren seemed to be attempting (including working on his own private Krogan army in addition to the Geth, he didn't want to refit other ships with said tech either? Not to mention if it was Geth tech, there were still Geth out there. No attempt to attack across the veil has been made and for all the Council knew there could be a whole Geth fleet of such ships under construction.

There don't have to be actual reapers for there to be an equivalent level threat.

Shepard could understand Prothean speech. Whether or not Shepard could read/write Prothean isn't revealed.

I'll grant you that point, although it seems like a strange oversight on the part of the Protheans if he can't. The ability was sort of completely ignored in ME2 regardless...

Proper interrogation of the crew members might've never happened. They had districts to rebuild, security to revamp, and Shepard dies a few weeks later. After that, the crew scatters - mostly beyond the reach of the Council.

So you are suggesting that the Council might have been too incompetent to properly determine if Shep was being accurate about a major threat to all civilization, and you are using that to defend their response to Shepard?

Put yourself in the evaluator's shoes.

Psych: "What did the Beacon on Eden Prime show you?"

Notice that you use a verbal exchange rather than a more accurate mental exchange, completely discount any images that Shep found that would have been attributable to the Protheans (specific information that would be identifiable to non-Liara experts in the field), completely discount the absurdity of Saren planting such false information in a beacon appearantly set to explode, on a planet he was planning on nuking by way of a series of bombs that Shepard was able to disarm in time.... or is that part of Saren's plan too? Saren specificly expected Shepard to be there, to be able to disarm the bombs in time, and to accuse him ... successfully I might add?

That was all part of Saren's plan? All just an 'elabourate hoax' that relied on third parties such as Shepard not only being the one to set the beacon off, but surviving it and learning exactly what Saren wanted him to hear?

That is your theory and you figure Shepard is the one to be accused of madness?

Nice gratuitous renegade punch at the end too.... did you really need half a page for a straw man?

So, yes, in the end you have a person who can't prove what they saw wasn't a ploy all along and may still be acting under their delusion. This person is a highly trained killer, and shows up two years after being declared KIA working for one of the enemies of the Council asking for the Council's help to fight the nightmarish creatures he claims are still lurking in Dark Space.

I'd call that certifiable.

In the end, you have a straw man consisting of a very poorly done interview, relying on Saren having this absurd elabourate hoax scheme with no actual purpose to it (given he already had the Geth as a scapegoat, and himself wasn't presenting the Reaper theory to anyone, and obviously wasn't intending on any survivors on Eden), and ending with Shepard indeed acting irrationally.

Yes your arguement sounds quite 'certifiable.'

Modifié par Moiaussi, 02 mars 2011 - 10:18 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Replaying ME1 recently i kinda dont see how it would have made a difference in the case against saren. until you found tali's evidence all that was driving the player to believe saren did it was a couple cutscenes shepard didn't see and some testimony from a dock worker and anderson. Also it's implied that the only reason shepard's visions make sense to liara is because she's a prothean researcher. I mean with all the stuff in those cerberus news reports the fact that shepard got abunch of ****ed up pictures put in his brain wouldn't really make any sense to anyone else.


hell if you think about it those visions don't even make sense to the PLAYER until like right before the end of the game. why would you expect ingame characters to have 4th wall breaking insight into what your situation is? "Shepard talked to a computer on virmire that said some ****ed up **** that is totally damning evidence that space cthulhu is real and not just a weird robotship" c'mon if you really look at it shepard believing all that stuff has alot to do with personal involvement and also the player seeing these other cutaway scenes where we see confirmation that "reapers are real and saren is a traitor"


Also the beacons on illos were apparently in prothean, it sounding like english was only a convenience for the PLAYER, reading shepard's mind would have seen him talking to something that was responding in gibberish.
Shepard: "What's Saren want with the beacon?" Vigil: "Ahukuef ofke refoclred bamkem!!"
Shepard: "But why is he here, on Illos?" Vigil: "Have a great day at mcdonalds!!"
Shepard: "I see, thank you Vigil. You are a true friend."  Vigil: "Naktuul."

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 02 mars 2011 - 11:12 .

[Moiaussi]

In RL, Saren the wound in Nihlus would have almost certainly fit the profile of whatever weapon Saren uses. Keep in mind that Saren didn't expect any corpses to be recoverable/examinable, and he didn't seem to be using a Geth weapon, which would have been the obvious choice if he was covering up. Also the Alliance footage before the Eden camera was knocked out showed Sovereign, and it is completely unbelievable that Saren is flying around known space in a DN without anyone even noticing. Frankly it is a major plot hole that fact wasn't used against him..... Spectre or no, there is a treaty governing the existance of DN's. If Spectres using DN's as personal ships gets around the Treaty, all three races would be using that, or at least the Turians would....

Vigil was speaking something the translators could handle though... perhaps learned when Shepard was interacting with the earlier interface which was Prothean only?

[95Headhunter]

It's only a 'major plot hole' because you're insisting it is. I can think of a dozen reasons why it's perfectly feasible for the council to not consider such a meld passable evidence. I'm not going to bother detailing them, as most of them have already been suggested and you'll just shoot them down with your own interpretation of events.

The truth is that neither camp has enough facts to fully support their respective arguments. I don't believe the 'meld' can be used as a truth seeking lie detector, you do. Neither of those viewpoints is supported for definite in the games, we can only make guesses. And ultimately, both of us are just going to believe what we want to.

My advice to you would be to stop arguing for a plot hole, when it's so much easier and more enjoyable to pick a reason why it wouldn't work, and get back to letting the story unfold without getting hung up on things that aren't going to be changed anyway. For whatever reason, the council didn't chose to meld with shep, didn't chose to believe him about the Reapers, and as a result we have a cracking story to enjoy. Course, if you enjoy picking holes in thirty hour doses of harmless entertainment, that's your prerogative.

[exskeeny]

Rivercurse wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Very original question.

Oh great work.  The top search result is this exact thread. <_<

Yeah and there is only one other entry relating to this question anyway.

Fail Flame!

[Smeelia]

Moiaussi wrote...

Vigil was speaking something the translators could handle though... perhaps learned when Shepard was interacting with the earlier interface which was Prothean only?

Vigil doesn't speak Prothean, it learns a language you can understand by monitoring your communications and uses that (so the companions could indeed understand Vigil and even comment on this).

As for the council thinking Shepard is unstable, I don't think they ever say that.  They do indeed seem to believe that Saren and the Geth are deceiving Shepard or at least that the information Shepard has could give the wrong impression since there isn't really any evidence beyond what Shepard has seen.  It's understandable that they'd rather believe in the relatively minor threat that can be easily confirmed than accept that there's an unseen force that has been wiping out races for millenia (some of whom were more powerful than any that exist today) on it's way.  Even if they could confirm all of the things that Shepard has seen, the fact that there's no other source of significant evidence available anywhere else means that they still don't feel there's enough to be certain of the Reaper threat.

To be fair to them, there are plenty of possibilities that can't be confirmed or denied due to a lack of supporting evidence.  The council even comment on this, their comments seem stupid to us because we believe Shepard but they're not as irrational as they may seem.  For example, the hologram of Sovereign could well have been a set up by Saren to send Shepard on the wrong track.

The fact that the council allow Shepard to carry on the investigation shows that they have some faith, it's just that they don't see enough evidence to justify being directly involved (especially in the Terminus Systems).  Since Shepard already sent reports about the events so far it's unlikely that confirmation of them by a mind meld or otherwise would actually help, the council believes the information in the reports but doesn't believe that there's enough evidence of the larger threat for them to act on.

[Pwener2313]

Why? Because the Destiny Ascension got blown to hell, that's why.

[Smeelia]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Why? Because the Destiny Ascension got blown to hell, that's why.

I thought they replaced the council with a new one, Human controlled but still with one representative from each of the other three races (who are most likely just puppets).

[Pwener2313]

Not if you (like me), glitched you're game to get more renegade points the paragon even if you played as a paragon. With the full renegade ending, a human EXCLUSIVE council is formed. Neat right?

[Chewin]

Gah, people write too LONG posts

[2kgnsiika]

That whole story about Saren tampering with the beacons, the Cipher and Vigil is ludicrous. This is why:

1) Saren needed the Conduit, so he had to get to Ilos.
2) Saren did not want Shepard or anyone to interfere with his plans.
3) If Saren could have tampered with the beacons, the Cipher and Vigil, he would have erased or altered the information somehow, to make it useless for Shepard, or at least mislead him.
4) Saren did not do any of those things, since the two beacons, the Cipher and the location of the Mu relay were exactly what was needed to get to Ilos.

Why would Saren, therefore, have fabricated a story about the Reapers and put the in the beacons and not, say deleted that information? How did this help him in any way? If Benezia was untrustworthy, why did she give Shepard the location of the Mu Relay? If Shiala couldn't be trusted, why did she give the Cipher that allowed Shepard to see Ilos in the beacons' message? If Vigil was tampered with by Saren, why did it give Shepard the data file needed to override Sovereign and gain control of the Citadel?

All Saren ever wanted was to get to the Conduit without someone interfering. If he was trying to manipulate Shepard all along, he did none of the things needed to sidetrack him and instead led him straight to the Conduit with the means to access the Citadel's master control panel.

It's therefore simply not plausible that Saren fooled Shepard in any way, and anyone critically evaluating these circumstances would come to the same conclusion, so the Council not believing Shepard, if not a plot hole, is not very good writing.

[Smeelia]

2kgnsiika wrote...

That whole story about Saren tampering with the beacons, the Cipher and Vigil is ludicrous. This is why:

1) Saren needed the Conduit, so he had to get to Ilos.
2) Saren did not want Shepard or anyone to interfere with his plans.
3) If Saren could have tampered with the beacons, the Cipher and Vigil, he would have erased or altered the information somehow, to make it useless for Shepard, or at least mislead him.
4) Saren did not do any of those things, since the two beacons, the Cipher and the location of the Mu relay were exactly what was needed to get to Ilos.

Why would Saren, therefore, have fabricated a story about the Reapers and put the in the beacons and not, say deleted that information? How did this help him in any way? If Benezia was untrustworthy, why did she give Shepard the location of the Mu Relay? If Shiala couldn't be trusted, why did she give the Cipher that allowed Shepard to see Ilos in the beacons' message? If Vigil was tampered with by Saren, why did it give Shepard the data file needed to override Sovereign and gain control of the Citadel?

All Saren ever wanted was to get to the Conduit without someone interfering. If he was trying to manipulate Shepard all along, he did none of the things needed to sidetrack him and instead led him straight to the Conduit with the means to access the Citadel's master control panel.

It's therefore simply not plausible that Saren fooled Shepard in any way, and anyone critically evaluating these circumstances would come to the same conclusion, so the Council not believing Shepard, if not a plot hole, is not very good writing.

None of these things necessarily prove that the Reapers exist though.  It's possible that Ilos was an ambush, there were a lot of powerful Geth there and Saren might have assumed Shepard had died.  The others may have helped Shepard but that doesn't prove the Reapers are real and doesn't rely on a Reaper based story.  The conduit was a Prothean construction so it makes sense that the Protheans would know about it, it doesn't prove that the Reaper aspects of the story are true.  In the Council version of the story Saren may have simply been using Prothean technology to attack and conquer the Citadel.  Vigil may not have been hacked, but the story about the Reapers wiping out the Protheans doesn't prove they're coming back (they could also be dead or long gone) and may not have anything to do with Sovereign.

There are too many unknown factors and extremely limited evidence, the possibility that Saren and the Geth could have been deliberately misleading Shepard is just one of many.

Still, it's difficult to let the council off for doing so little (that we're aware of).  Just letting Shepard investigate is a start but it seems like too small an effort for something that could be so important (of course if could turn out that they've been working on other things and sending other Spectres, although I can't think why they wouldn't tell Shepard).

[tonnactus]

Moiaussi wrote...


You are right of course.... a race that specializes in xeno-diplomacy and whose culture insists on mating with other species (including humans) would have no interest in human psychology at all.... none.... I was foolish to even suggest it....

/sarcasm off

They would be interested in some basics for political bargain.But i doubt some asari went to earth and study human psychology in a degree to be able to diagnose mental sickness.

[tonnactus]

Scimal wrote...


Liara also specifically asked for the information, so it was readily available. There's no evidence that Asari essentially seek specific memories or force the melding.

That is not true.Benezia did this to gather information about the mu relay with the rachni queen.

[MrFob]

Yes but both of them believed that their respective "subjects" (read Shep and the Rachni queen) had genuine information. Therefore they trusted in what they saw. If the councilor thinks Shep believes in a lie o is even capable of producing alie during the procedure, the mind meld is pointless.
Besides, as far as Benezia is concerned, between her Matriarch abilities and Sarens/Sovereigns powers, who knows what kind telepathic powers she might have used on the queen to dig to the truth. She said herself, she was not gentle. So if the council really wanted to know for sure (and assuming they could use the same methods as Benezia), they'd have o capture and torture Shep. And even then, if he really believes in it, they might only get the lies he believes. A lot of truble for unreliable information.

[Moiaussi]

tonnactus wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...


You are right of course.... a race that specializes in xeno-diplomacy and whose culture insists on mating with other species (including humans) would have no interest in human psychology at all.... none.... I was foolish to even suggest it....

/sarcasm off

They would be interested in some basics for political bargain.But i doubt some asari went to earth and study human psychology in a degree to be able to diagnose mental sickness.

You seem to have a very liberal definition of 'specialists.' They don't merely engage in diplomacy, they have refined it to the level that they are restricted in the numbers of capital ships they can possess to balance their ability strategicly. That is beyond 'knowing the basics for political bargain.'

Furthermore, they can as a natural ability study the mind's operation directly, meaning they can make a real science out of psychology rather than guesswork. And if nothing else, they live long enough to want to find new things to study.

The question isn't why would they want such information, but why wouldn't they?

[Moiaussi]

Smeelia wrote...

None of these things necessarily prove that the Reapers exist though.  It's possible that Ilos was an ambush, there were a lot of powerful Geth there and Saren might have assumed Shepard had died.  The others may have helped Shepard but that doesn't prove the Reapers are real and doesn't rely on a Reaper based story.  The conduit was a Prothean construction so it makes sense that the Protheans would know about it, it doesn't prove that the Reaper aspects of the story are true.  In the Council version of the story Saren may have simply been using Prothean technology to attack and conquer the Citadel.  Vigil may not have been hacked, but the story about the Reapers wiping out the Protheans doesn't prove they're coming back (they could also be dead or long gone) and may not have anything to do with Sovereign.

There are too many unknown factors and extremely limited evidence, the possibility that Saren and the Geth could have been deliberately misleading Shepard is just one of many.

Still, it's difficult to let the council off for doing so little (that we're aware of).  Just letting Shepard investigate is a start but it seems like too small an effort for something that could be so important (of course if could turn out that they've been working on other things and sending other Spectres, although I can't think why they wouldn't tell Shepard).

You are ignoring a few other facts.

1) Saren had bombs planted on Eden.  He didn't expect there to be much left to recover or study. Given that, what would  be the point of the beacon?

2) Why rig the  beacon to explode? Again, if the recipient is killed, how could they pass on any 'fake' warnings?

It was possible Illos was an ambush, but why go through such a convoluted bizaare means of trying to convince anyone to go there? Why attack Eden at all? Just plant the beacon and let whoever finds it think it is real.

And as for Vigil, Vigil doesn't just say the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, but confims Liara's theory that they have wiped out others before.

And why are the Reapers so far fetched anyway? Most of the galaxy is unexplored and there are relays they haven't seen the end of. The Rachni didn't attack until Council vessels entered Rachni space, so they even have met a hostile non-expansionistic race before.

The Normandy was the right ship to send to Illos, since it could investigate safely due to stealth. If they were unsure of Shepard, they could have put an alternate spectre in command and/or sent one along as an observer.

[Scimal]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

I take it you are big on semantics.[/quote]

I'm a Biologist with an extensive background in English Critical Theory. Semantics often equate to clarity in both fields.

[quote]Shiala passed on the cypher, which was she was appearantly able to separate from her other knowledge and memories so that she wasn't also passing on her favourite recipes or sexual longings or family tree. It was an information blitz, but a discrete and specific one.[/quote]

Yes, it was. Selective recall is the norm.

[quote] What is the functional difference between looking into someone's mind and 'asking for' specific memories, and doing so and looking for other specific memories, such as an alternate source for images Shepard associates with the beacon?[/quote]

I'm not sure why "asking for" is as it is. Liara literally tells Shepard she wants to share and interpret the memories and asks to help later on. I wasn't making an allusion to anything - the human brain's ability to recall memories (either what triggers or how they're stored) is largely unknown. 

I'm saying that since the Asari can't forcibly read the minds of other sapient species, they can only view/experience what's willingly given. Thus, they can't tell if the other individual is lying or telling the truth. Because the mind meld seems to be a very superficial reading of another's thoughts, it makes sense that they wouldn't be able to tell whether or not the memory is a false memory or an actual experience - a deeper level of whether or not someone is lying or telling the truth.

The brain can tell. Some areas will lack activity while others will show activity in a 'fake v. real' memory test. However, the Asari seem incapable of picking up on it. Thusly, Shepard could show them a giant flying rhino - adamently believe that it exists - and the best an Asari meld could produce is: "There is that image stored in Shepard's head." Not that it's real, not that it happened, and not that it could've been made up.

So, if Shepard were to become delusional - from brain damage, a mental breakdown, or by being toyed with - there's no way without outside evidence that an Asari mind-meld could prove anything happened beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[quote]So even though some Asari really do have prophetic visions...[/quote]

No, they don't. Even the Consort - your implied reference - did not have any visions. She "read your aura/being/whatever." She is not a prophet - and if she was, she kinda sucked since she forgot to mention that you'd die and get resurrected by one of your greatest enemies.

She even apologizes in an e-mail to you that she feared her words to you were wrong; "...an emberassing notion."

Her words to you were to the extent of, "You will overcome a challenge with strength of soul and with great companions." Seeing as Shepard just became a Spectre, and Spectres have to overcome difficult challenges as a rule, it's only slightly more mysterious than a tarot card reading.

[quote]...and even though Asari can transfer mental images, concepts, etc between each other and with non-Asari, it is more believable to you that someone who has actually never encountered a camel nor had one described to him would spontaneously imagine one, despite a complete lack of reference for the image, than for the image to be the result of some sort of transfer from an outside source, in Shepard's case, the Beacon?[/quote]

I'm not actually sure what you're trying to say. My original example was to show that the Asari mind meld could not tell which image was the real one and which was the fake: Me riding a camel, or me riding an elephant. 

I never actually had to have ridden either one, as long as I imagined it happened - which can easily happen.

I also never said that Shepard had to make up anything. The Council never denied that Shepard interfaced with the Beacon on Eden Prime - their debriefing makes that clear. What's unclear at that point is what was transmitted, and whether or not Shepard mentally survived the experience.

[quote]
You are taking my point to literally. The fact that such powers exist...[/quote]

Again, if you're referring to prophetic abilities, the Asari have exhibited nothing beyond what Humans are capable of. That is to say, the Consort was able to play Shepard very well, give him a vague description of his future (lacking some very major events), and happened to coincidentally have a trinket that tied back to Humans in some fashion.

Besides the trinket, nothing the Consort said or did was beyond what I could tell you right now if I could look at you. Thus, the "powers" of prophecy do not exist any more for the Asari than they did for the Greek women hiding in a cave full of natural gas.

[quote]...and that humans have biotic potential and in some cases rather strong biotic ability, and more over that information can be transferred directly mind to mind implies that it is plausable for Shepard to have learned things from the beacon in such a fashion, and that just because the information seems far fetched doesn't make it imagined, nor Shepard 'mad.'[/quote]

Correct. Because the information is improbable doesn't make it impossible. What matters is everything else surrounding Shepard to verify that information.

That's what I tried to show you with the fake interview; that there's nothing that proves Shepard's case. Every piece of evidence Shepard could think of, at some point, could either have been sabotaged by Saren, or doesn't make the Reaper threat clear.

[quote]An assessment of Shepard's alleged madness should have been made only in the context of the source and nature of his visions.[/quote]

No. A thousand times no. You do not send billions of people to war based off of the visions of a single person - a person who barely survived having their brain scrambled.

It would be like turning over national policy to a Schizophrenic.

[quote]
They dismissed the concept that the vision came from the beacon rather than from Shepard himself.[/quote]

No they don't. They acknowledge that the Beacon did something to Shepard's mind, and that after the Beacon Shepard had a vision. They contest the validity of the vision, and whether or not Saren was playing Shepard for a fool by sending him on a wild goose chase.


[quote]
But they all saw exactly the same discussion with Vigil.[/quote]

Yes. Everybody can read the same book. It doesn't make the story in the book real.

[quote]
You are comparing Abu Gharaib with the discussion with Vigil? Really? Torture of civilians with, in the middle of trying to save all of civilization from Saren if not from the Reapers, taking a time out to make sure Shepard doesn't appear crazy? Please tell me you have a better sense of perspective than that [/quote]

I believe you are gravely misinterpreting my posts. I used it as an example of how long it takes the political process to act. A less severe, more recent action were the Navy tapes. My point was that after the Citadel was saved, Shepard's crewmembers may have moved on faster than the Council could cross-interrogate them to find any flaws or evidence.

We assuming that a debriefing occurred, but I doubt it took priority over reconstruction or received more than a casual glance until several weeks later. That's probably why they had Shepard patrolling the Terminus border - keeping Shepard out of trouble while they sorted things out.

[quote]
A completely unexplained piece of technology of which their might be more and of which it is reasonable to conclude that Saren would want to have reverse engineered even if the Geth hadn't.[/quote]

And? That also describes the Mass Relays, the Citadel, Prothean Artifacts... All "found" pieces of technology which have been used. Some of it was easy to reverse-engineer (less complicated pieces of Prothean tech), some of it eludes Scientists thousands of years later (the Mass Relays).

Again, the Council has only seen one - and if it was an ancient ship, there isn't any reason to assume there's an entire fleet of them waiting out there when only a single one has appeared in thousands of years of occupying hundreds of planets.

The implication is that despite everything else Saren seemed to be attempting (including working on his own private Krogan army in addition to the Geth), he didn't want to refit other ships with said tech either?[/quote]

Like I said, just because Saren wanted to reverse-engineer Sovereign doesn't mean he could.

[quote]Not to mention if it was Geth tech, there were still Geth out there. No attempt to attack across the veil has been made and for all the Council knew there could be a whole Geth fleet of such ships under construction.[/quote]

Could be. That could be a point the Councillors disagree on, and just not have shown it openly. With the Geth not putting up much of a fight anymore and withdrawing back beyond the Veil, the immediate threat was gone, though. So their attentions probably turned towards rebuilding the Citadel - not massing an army in preparation for invasion.


[quote]So you are suggesting that the Council might have been too incompetent to properly determine if Shep was being accurate about a major threat to all civilization, and you are using that to defend their response to Shepard?[/quote]

I'm saying that the Council is atop a pyramid of other politicians. At every level more time is added to the process - which is why the Spectres were created in the first place; they're a shortcut to getting things done.

If it takes our current government - which governs a civilization less than 1% of what the handful of Councilors do - weeks to months to properly debrief military incidents, why would it be different for the Council?

Basically, why would they do more than briefly skim Shepard's report - they mostly trust Shepard at the end of ME1. There were some undertones of "Saren's playing you for a fool," but it wasn't until after Shepard's death that they started delving into what actually happened. At that point, the crew had spread to the four winds - making them extremely difficult (and in some cases impossible) to track down.

Thus, thorough examinations could possibly never have taken place.

[quote]
Notice that you use a verbal exchange rather than a more accurate mental exchange...[/quote]

How is the mental exchange more accurate? You can't tell truths from falsehoods. You can only view what the other person wants you to view. Even then, memories may not be fully recalled.

Erroneous recall is huge in humans. Our brains make up stuff all the time. You could - conceivably - hook up Shepard to an fMRI and look at the activity of their head while being melded with and asked questions, but that still doesn't show that Shepard's mentally stable.

It shows Shepard experienced the Beacon - not that the information relayed by the Beacon was real. Without examining the data directly from the Beacon for comparision, Shepard could've just misinterpreted an ad for a 50,000 year old "The Day the Citadel Stood Still" movie (or, as I proposed earlier - false information planted by Saren to lead Shepard on a wild goose chase).

[quote]
...completely discount the absurdity of Saren planting such false information in a beacon appearantly set to explode...[/quote]

Which is more absurd - that a race of sentient starships lurks beyond detection waiting to trap every space-faring civilization in a galactic genocide every 50,000 years and mind-controlled a Spectre to amass an army to attack the Citadel so they could activate the trap...

or...

Saren (a highly-trained Spectre with access to countless resources and the knowledge to use them) left a trap that would either kill or misinform the person who used the Beacon after him, leading them on a trek across Citadel Space - giving Saren ample time to take the Citadel and destroy the Council...

[quote]...on a planet he was planning on nuking by way of a series of bombs that Shepard was able to disarm in time.... or is that part of Saren's plan too?[/quote]

Nope. You always have a backup, though. Doesn't take long to upload data.

[quote]Saren specificly expected Shepard to be there, to be able to disarm the bombs in time, and to accuse him ... successfully I might add?[/quote]

Nope. Saren didn't have to plan for any of that. He just had to have a backup to "the bombs didn't go off." Which could easily include falsifying records in order to manipulate the opposition.

[quote]
That is your theory and you figure Shepard is the one to be accused of madness?[/quote]

Yes. Why? Because it wasn't necessary for the person to be Shepard. If Ashley hadn't of been pulled out of the Beacon by Shepard, she'd be dead, the Beacon would be destroyed, and Saren's Plan (A) would've gone off without much of a hitch.

Backup plans aren't specific. You're making this convoluted plot by Saren to entice Shepard and Shepard alone to disable bombs, fight through the Geth, and arrive at the very moment Saren was done with the Beacon, etc. etc. etc.

From Saren's point of view, the plan goes like this:
A - Use the Beacon, blow up the place.
B - If, for some reason, the place doesn't blow up, sabotage the Beacon to kill the next person who uses it.
C - If, for some reason, the Beacon doesn't kill them, plant fake info in the Beacon to lead them away from the next part of my plan.

That's not a lot of complexity, doesn't take much planning, and could each one could be executed in a few moments.

[quote]Nice gratuitous renegade punch at the end too.... did you really need half a page for a straw man?[/quote]

How is it a straw-man? Where did I mis-represent Shepard's arguments?

Did I not address each major argument? Was the conversation slightly biased toward Shep being loony? Yes - because I didn't want to spend the several hours typing out page-long examinations of each one, and instead truncated it to my conclusion.

[quote]In the end, you have a straw man consisting of a very poorly done interview, relying on Saren having this absurd elabourate hoax scheme with no actual purpose to it (given he already had the Geth as a scapegoat, and himself wasn't presenting the Reaper theory to anyone, and obviously wasn't intending on any survivors on Eden), and ending with Shepard indeed acting irrationally.

Yes your arguement sounds quite 'certifiable.'[/quote]

Grandmaster Chess champions think up to 20 moves ahead, evaluating hundreds of moves and choosing the top dozen or so to execute, with several backup plans in case something goes wrong.

Saren did not need to construct an elaborate hoax. Being good at covering his tracks and having a handful of backup plans in case his primary plan failed are all that would be required to effectively replicate the results that Council saw.

But, so be it. If you are so entirely convinced that I portrayed my argument poorly, then let me ask you one question - and if you can answer this one question, I will secede the debate in your favor:



Can you find any piece of evidence for which there can be no other valid explanation other than the existence of Reapers which does not rely on Shepard's (or the crew's) testimony?

Modifié par Scimal, 03 mars 2011 - 01:09 .

[Jonesey2k]

They probably don't need to meld as they already believe Shepard but don't want to case a mass panic and are therefore covering it up...

[Scimal]

tonnactus wrote...


That is not true.Benezia did this to gather information about the mu relay with the rachni queen.

Two problems with this one:

(1) There's no evidence that any melding was forced (whether or not the Queen was tortured until she agreed to a melding is a different matter), and...

(2) I don't remember Benezia mentioning that she melded with the Queen at all. We just assume she did because the Queen communicates telepathically and the Asari can meld, but the Queen - again, possibly after being tortured - could've vocally given the information the same way she talked with Shepard after Benezia's death.

[Smeelia]

Moiaussi wrote...

You are ignoring a few other facts.

1) Saren had bombs planted on Eden.  He didn't expect there to be much left to recover or study. Given that, what would  be the point of the beacon?

2) Why rig the  beacon to explode? Again, if the recipient is killed, how could they pass on any 'fake' warnings?

It was possible Illos was an ambush, but why go through such a convoluted bizaare means of trying to convince anyone to go there? Why attack Eden at all? Just plant the beacon and let whoever finds it think it is real.

And as for Vigil, Vigil doesn't just say the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, but confims Liara's theory that they have wiped out others before.

And why are the Reapers so far fetched anyway? Most of the galaxy is unexplored and there are relays they haven't seen the end of. The Rachni didn't attack until Council vessels entered Rachni space, so they even have met a hostile non-expansionistic race before.

The Normandy was the right ship to send to Illos, since it could investigate safely due to stealth. If they were unsure of Shepard, they could have put an alternate spectre in command and/or sent one along as an observer.

I did mention that there are other possibilities than Saren doing the manipulation.  The trail could easily have been to Prothean artifacts and Saren may well have wanted to stop Shepard following him, that doesn't actually prove the existence of Reapers.  The visions aren't exactly clear and they don't prove the existence of Reapers or their intention to attack either.  The machines seen in the Prothean vision could have been experiments the Protheans were undertaking or a race they encountered, it's still not enough proof of Reapers.

Vigil is similar, it doesn't actually provide solid evidence and just gives an account of what happened that may or may not be accurate (and doesn't prove that it'll happen again).

Even so, there's a lot of circumstancial evidence in favour of the existence of Reapers.  Maybe part of the reason they don't act is because they really don't know what they'd do about it.  You could also argue that they are doing something, by targetting the Geth and Saren you do manage to foil the Reaper plot (whether it is a Reaper plot or not) and similarly letting you deal with the collector threat also seems to work.  Maybe they have a lot of confidence in you and think that the way they deal with you helps you to get the job done.

After ME2, having seen a Reaper being built might be worth something but then as far as you know you killed all the collectors and destroyed their base and the Human Reaper doesn't prove the existence of others again (it could be a new creation, it even looks different to Sovereign).  It's still difficult.

Modifié par Smeelia, 03 mars 2011 - 01:42 .

[MrFob]

I always thought the council believes the following (by the time of ME2):
- Saren wanted to take control of the citadel for himself
- Shepard saw some weird vision after exposure to the beacons
- Saren found out about Illos via the beacons (i.e. the visions are really prothean but don't refer to the reapers but just to the conduit and the Illos research facility))
- Saren had the Virmire beacon long before Eden Prime. He had a head start in laying out his schemes.
- Saren tried to cover his tracks (bombs on Eden Prime, attack on the Thorien) and failed
- Knowing that Shep saw the visions too, he needed to discredit him in the eyes of the council and therefore manipulated him into thinking the visions were about the reapers by making his own people believe in the story, so that everything Shep sees and finds refers to them. That includes The audio recording, Benezia, Shiala, etc.
- The fact that Benezias daughter had some wild theories about a cycle of extinction fits right into Sarens scheme, so he tries to kidnap her to bolster his story. (Probably Saren inteded for Sheps rescue to work, meaning that Liara was an unsuspecting pawn in Sarens game)
- Saren either tempered with vigil or Shep just interpreted Viigils explanations according to his reaper infested preconceptions. Either way, Shep and his squad are the only ones living who had direct contact to vigil so by Sarens or Sheps fault the information is unreliable.
=> The reaper story was Sarens plot to discredit Shep and he fell for it.

I don't find it too bizarre. Saren had to work with what he had, the visions ... and with stupid underlings who couldn't cover his tracks.
Note 1: The council is never actually present during ME1s events and just hears about it from Sheps reports. They may see a lot of interpretation on Sheps part in them
Note 2: And that is important: I think the council is undecided about whether to believe Sheps story or the version above. They actually didn't make up their minds yet. They may even have another spectre investigate the reaper issue without Sheps knowledge. BUT: I guess these official council sessions are recorded (especially since Shep is not very covert during his vsit in ME2). The primary objective of the council is to prevent rumors that could inflate public opinion. So while actually investigating the issue, they have to keep the public apperance of dismissing it. Shepard (and maybe Anderson as well) are not told in order to preserve thei genuine reaction to the dismissal. Imagine in ME3:
Shepard: "Well, it seems the reapers invade after all, We have numerous sightings all over council space but I am sure you are just going to dismiss me again so why do I even bother."
Asari councilor: "Commander, I am afraid we were forced to deceive you in our last discussion."
Shep: "What?!?"
Asari: "The council is does not take matters of galactic security lightly commander."
Salarian: "We have dispatched a number of spectres and several STG units to gather information on the reaper thread as well as possible counter meassures. We are transferring the files to your ship now."
Turian: "A military task force is standing by to resond to reaper attacks. We have set aside a secure priority com channel for this operation."
Asari: "Since the one person in the galaxy that has first hand experience in fighting the reapers, we would like you to take command of the task force. Consider the full resources of the citadel council governments at your disposal commander."
Turian: "in realistic constrains of course."
Shep (turning to Udina): "Did you know about this?"
Udina: "Sorry commander, we could not effort the risk of involving you before now."
Asari: "You have a way of attracting attention commander."
Salarian: "And we needed to keep this as quiet as possible in order to avoid wide spread panic as well to minimize the chances of alerting the reapers that there might be any form of organized resistance."

Haha, that would be great IMO. Well, we'll see what BW will do about it.