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[Moiaussi]

Smeelia wrote...

I did mention that there are other possibilities than Saren doing the manipulation.  The trail could easily have been to Prothean artifacts and Saren may well have wanted to stop Shepard following him, that doesn't actually prove the existence of Reapers.  The visions aren't exactly clear and they don't prove the existence of Reapers or their intention to attack either.  The machines seen in the Prothean vision could have been experiments the Protheans were undertaking or a race they encountered, it's still not enough proof of Reapers.

Vigil is similar, it doesn't actually provide solid evidence and just gives an account of what happened that may or may not be accurate (and doesn't prove that it'll happen again).

It is strongly implied that Shepard sees a lot more than we are shown. If all Shepard sees is what we are shown, he really was mad. There is no way anyone could conclude any such thing from that short clip, let alone tie the name 'Reapers' to it. Vigil's account would include everthing the Prothean's learned during their cycle, and the Reapers seem arrogant enough to have explained it all to their 'prey.' They might also not have been as good at cleaning up from prior cycles. Regardless, there is no particular reason to disbelieve Vigil, and building up fleets and forming stronger alliances, pushing tech innovations, etc are all good in the aftermath of major losses such as at the Citadel regardless. The possibility of the Reapers shouldn't be that big an issue, given the Rachni and Krogan wars in the past. Even if the Reapers don't exist, that doesn't preclude some other hostile race out there that is more contemporary.

Even so, there's a lot of circumstancial evidence in favour of the existence of Reapers.  Maybe part of the reason they don't act is because they really don't know what they'd do about it.  You could also argue that they are doing something, by targetting the Geth and Saren you do manage to foil the Reaper plot (whether it is a Reaper plot or not) and similarly letting you deal with the collector threat also seems to work.  Maybe they have a lot of confidence in you and think that the way they deal with you helps you to get the job done.

Indeed, which is why Miranda's line about Shepard being sent to chase Geth makes little sense. The Geth are the obvious lead in learning more about the Reapers. Why wouldn't investigating them be a priority?

After ME2, having seen a Reaper being built might be worth something but then as far as you know you killed all the collectors and destroyed their base and the Human Reaper doesn't prove the existence of others again (it could be a new creation, it even looks different to Sovereign).  It's still difficult.

After ME2, the evidence is either destroyed or covered up by TIM. If TIM hadn't been actively conceiling evidence, Shepard would have had a much easier time making a case. Of course as long as the writers keep insisting Shepard is too stupid to understand he actually has to make a case and convince people, there isn't much hope anyway....

[Smeelia]

Moiaussi wrote...

It is strongly implied that Shepard sees a lot more than we are shown. If all Shepard sees is what we are shown, he really was mad. There is no way anyone could conclude any such thing from that short clip, let alone tie the name 'Reapers' to it. Vigil's account would include everthing the Prothean's learned during their cycle, and the Reapers seem arrogant enough to have explained it all to their 'prey.' They might also not have been as good at cleaning up from prior cycles. Regardless, there is no particular reason to disbelieve Vigil, and building up fleets and forming stronger alliances, pushing tech innovations, etc are all good in the aftermath of major losses such as at the Citadel regardless. The possibility of the Reapers shouldn't be that big an issue, given the Rachni and Krogan wars in the past. Even if the Reapers don't exist, that doesn't preclude some other hostile race out there that is more contemporary.

It's probably more that Shepard gets parts of the context and background along with the vision, similar to the way that I can see a glass of water and identify it as a glass of water from past experience.  Of course that information would probably also be transmitted in the mind melding, especially since this is how the Cipher (which is more detail on the context of the information) is transferred and the visions are translated by Liara (although you could argue it's her background knowledge that helps more).

It's also interesting that rumours of Reapers already exist before Shepard's vision, those rumours must have some basis so I wonder why the council don't seem interested in them at all and they're never mentioned by either Shepard or the council.

Moiaussi wrote...

After ME2, the evidence is either destroyed or covered up by TIM. If TIM hadn't been actively conceiling evidence, Shepard would have had a much easier time making a case. Of course as long as the writers keep insisting Shepard is too stupid to understand he actually has to make a case and convince people, there isn't much hope anyway....

That's true, Shepard does seem to suffer from bouts of plot induced stupidity.  I suppose from Shepards point of view the Reapers are an established fact and it's not always easy to see why someone wouldn't believe something you "know" to be true.  Still, most Shepards will routinely use persuasion on people and that often includes pointing out supporting evidence (for example, "see this gun") so it's odd that Shepard never tries anything like this with the council.

[Bourne Endeavor]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Very original question.

Is it at all ironic they first link listed on google when you click that is this thread? 

[Almostfaceman]

Scimal wrote...

You are looking at this as if the viewer is not only looking at snapshots, but magically finds only specific snapshots. For the cypher to have been passed to Shepard mentally, the Asari must be able to do more than look at snapshots. Ditto for Liara being able to sort the information Shepard carried and to help him process it.

If we expand 'snapshots' to sensory information, Shiala basically transferred several Prothean lifetimes' worth of information to Shep - but not their mental capacity or what made them unique. It was an information blitz, one taken willingly by Shepard, and given willingly by Shiala.

Liara also specifically asked for the information, so it was readily available. There's no evidence that Asari essentially seek specific memories or force the melding.

If there were images in the mind of someone riding a camel and images in the same mind of someone riding an elephant, but no images at all of that someone having ever seen a camel otherwise nor of anyone ever telling them it was a camel, then either they somehow miraculously imagined a camel spontaneously or that image came from an outside source other than conventional life experience.

Like you said, they imagined a camel spontaneously. Shepard received a mind-blow from the Beacon, so Shep could've subconsciously constructed everything around sparse bits. Shep also saw Sovereign on Eden Prime not too soon before encounting the wacky Beacon.

How does the consort know prophecy from conventional dream? We know for a fact that there is a level of accuracy to them, that she is a true prophet. These are concepts known the the Asari.

And how does this prove Shepard's sanity? Because the Consort read his aura? Because she gave Shep a trinket that allowed another Prothean artifact to shovel information into Shep's head?

She never melded with Shep, and the theory that the Consort is an "accurate" prophet isn't beyond mere coincidence yet.

You are talking again as if such concepts really are purely madness. but as I pointed out, there are Asari who have real prophetic ability. As for a lack of evidence, at the initial encounter with the beacon, Shepard knowing things that he didn't have access to otherwise is strong evidence.

The Asari "prophetic ability" seems to be perfectly on-par with human capability so far.

Plus, the Council never refused that the Beacon put information into Shepard's head. Never. What the Council believes is that Shepard is mentally unstable because of the Beacon - possibly because Saren planted information in the Beacon, or because it just messed with his head to the point that he believed Saren's lies.

TIM's concielment of evidence notwithstanding there is plenty. Vigil being powered down doesn't deny its existance. The memories of the other crew could be examined too, and guess what... not only do their stories match, but their memories match too, precisely accurately.

Being unable to be re-activated might not deny Vigil's existence, but the Council doesn't have anything to support Shepard's story other than he found  a hologram interface on Ilos.

As for the Crew, only two saw the Sovereign hologram and the Vigil hologram. Depending on who they were, they could've ditched the gig while the Citadel was being rebuilt. To the Council, the immediate threat - Sovereign - was taken care of. Their focus was entirely on rebuilding what was lost - and they were still rebuilding years later.

Considering how long it takes our current system to interview and review matters vital to national security, it's entirely plausible that the crewmembers simply skipped out before the Council could get information out of them. That doesn't look good in Shep's favor in the first place.

Ash/Kaidan would never betray their commander. Think how long it took for Abu Gharaib to hit the news, despite over a dozen people being involved.

Differences between Sovereign and any Geth tech have been discussed at length, most notably the fact that the Thanix cannons based on Reaper design were so easy to develop and so easily deployed that a frigate can fabricate them refit with them seemlessly with no spare parts from outside and no need for a stardock nor with any delays.

Rana said Saren found it out in space, just floating. Might as well have been an artifact. The Council wants to believe it's Geth tech, or tech found by the Geth.

Because of the prevalence of other ancient alien technology, there isn't any reason to suspect that Sovereign simply wasn't one-of-a-kind in that regard.

At the beginning, he did not. At the end of ME1, the Council seemed to accept his statements. By the end he also was fluent in Prothean, which should have allowed him to make translations no other scholars could.

Shepard could understand Prothean speech. Whether or not Shepard could read/write Prothean isn't revealed.

That is rather strong proof right there. And again, by the end of ME1, the discussion with Vigil could have been collaborated by proper interrogation of the other crew members. Even without memory probes that should have been possible, but mind melding would have cinched it.

Proper interrogation of the crew members might've never happened. They had districts to rebuild, security to revamp, and Shepard dies a few weeks later. After that, the crew scatters - mostly beyond the reach of the Council.

Well yes, but you have not given any explaination for your confidence other than shrugging and saying he sounded crazy to you.

Put yourself in the evaluator's shoes.

Psych: "What did the Beacon on Eden Prime show you?"
Shep: "I saw the Protheans, how they were all wiped out."
Psych: "Specifically?"
Shep: "Yes. I saw a Reaper and the massacres that followed."
Psych: "What proof do you have that this information was inherent to the Beacon, and not put there by Saren?"
Shep: "Saren was after the Beacon, why would he plant information in it?"
Psych: "Did he know you were coming?"
Shep: "He knew the Spectres were on Eden Prime, yes."
Psych: "Do you think it could've been a trap; that he could have used it and planted false information to lead you towards his own desires?"
Shep: "What I saw was real, not planted by Saren."
Pysch: "What proof do you have that he didn't tamper with it?"
Shep: "None."
Psych: "All right. This Cypher, given to you by Shiala who was possessed by the Thorian - what was its goal?"
Shep: "To allow Saren to understand Prothean culture and language."
Psych: "And she gave it to you after you saved her, correct?"
Shep: "Yes."
Psych: "Again, what's to say it wasn't a trap set by Saren?"
Shep: "Sovereign betrayed her. Why would she feed me false info?"
Psych: "In your report, you said that she willingly gave herself to the Thorian while following Benezia."
Shep: "Yes, but they were under Sovereign's Indoctrination field."
Pysch: "Right, right - the Indoctrination field. You said it emanated from Saren's flagship itself?"
Shep: "Yes. It's some sort of field that slowly turned sapient beings into obedient followers."
Psych: "An effect corroborated by one Rana Thanoptis."
Shep: "Yes, on Virmire."
Psych: "However, Rana Thanoptis was not aware of anything related to the Reapers. She thought Sovereign was an artifact that Saren had found in space without mention of it being intelligent."
Shep: "Saren did find it in space, or more likely it found him. She never spoke to it, so she probably never knew it was sentient."
Psych: "But you did?"
Shep: "Yes, and two of my team."
Psych: "And what convinced you that it was more than a simple VI?"
Shep: "The Beacon's warning. The two were clearly connected."
Psych: "The Beacon's warning which you have no clear evidence that Saren did not tamper with?"
Shep: -sigh- "Yes."
Psych: "Tell me about Liara T'Soni. You say she melded with you in order to help you understand the information the Beacon - which we've established could have been tampered with by Sovereign - gave you?"
Shep: "Yes. She was very helpful, and eventually lead me to Ilos."
Psych: "So, she received the exact same information you did, minus the Cypher?"
Shep: "Yes."
Psych: "So if the information you received from the Beacon was fake, her information was also fake?"
Shep: "But Saren couldn't have planted the information about Ilos! He didn't know how to get to Ilos! That's why he needed the Rachni Queen."
Psych: "Does it seem odd to you that the Beacon inevitably lead you to a planet that you could not reach? Do you think this could have been part of Saren's ploy, to have you run a wild goose chase?"
Shep: "I was chasing him the whole way. He may have been one step ahead the entire time, but I know when I'm being toyed with."
Psych: "Of course. Back to the Rachni Queen - it was Benezia who met you there, correct? And Benezia who gave you the coordinates of the Mu relay to reach Ilos?"
Shep: "Correct."
Psych: "And you have reiterated several times that she was under Indoctrination the entire time, save for a brief instant when she gave you the information."
Shep: "Correct."
Psych: "What proof do you have that she was not simply acting on Saren's orders and pulled a fast one on you?"
Shep: "She sacrificed herself to give me that information."
Psych: "Are you positive she did not die from wounds during your intense battle with her?"
Shep: "I'm no medic, but I'm pretty damn sure."
Psych: "Without a body to examine, it's impossible to know the true cause of death. Do you understand this?"
Shep: "Yes, but I also stand by my judgement."
Psych: "Now, on Ilos, you claim you initially found another warning that only you could understand."
Shep: "Yes. I had to catch up to Saren, so I had to find another through some heavy doors. While searching for the mechanism to open the doors, I encountered the warning."
Psych: "Which neither of your crewmates understood."
Shep: "Correct."
Psych: "And then you claim that you finally retrieved Saren's trail after some time. It was during this period of catching up to Saren that you encountered 'Vigil', right?"
Shep: "Yes, the protector of the Ilos facility. There was only enough power to supply a few minutes of conversation with Vigil before it was lost."
Psych: "Correct. Tell me, what did Vigil look like?"
Shep: "I don't know. Vigil's body was too badly scrambled to resemble anything."
Psych: "So you don't know for sure that Vigil looked Prothean?"
Shep: "No."
Psych: "And your two teammates understood Vigil?"
Shep: "Yes, Vigil learned quickly."
Psych: "But they couldn't understand the warning you encountered just a few moments before?"
Shep: "No."
Psych: "Why do you believe Vigil was a Prothean relic, and not another bread-crumb put there by Saren - who you admit had ample time?"
Shep: "Because Vigil knew about the Conduit and its purpose."
Psych: "Ah, the Conduit. Tell me about it."
Shep: "It was built by the Protheans and acted as a one-way link to the Citadel. A previous Prothean team used it to shut down the signal which would've acted as the starting point for the Reaper invasion had they not done so. Saren used it to infiltrate the Citadel from the inside, and I used it to follow him."
Psych: "I thought you said that the Mass Relays were built by the Reapers, not the Protheans?"
Shep: "This one was. They had successfully reverse engineered the Mass Relays built by the Reapers, but it was a one-way street."
Psych: "Right. Was any evidence of the Prothean team found on the Citadel?"
Shep: "No."
Psych: "Now, by the time you reached the Citadel, Saren had already taken over the Presidium due to delaying you on Ilos, correct?"
Shep: "Yes."
Psych: "At the same time, Sovereign attacked with a large Geth fleet. Now, we all have videos of Sovereign being destroyed after taking what seemed to be an enormous amount of punishment - but you say it only occurred after you defeated Sovereign's - umm - 'Cybernetic undead' form?"
Shep: "Yes. Sovereign had augmented Saren to the point that Saren could be remotely controlled, even though his biological body was no longer recognizable."
Psych: "But Saren's body was never recovered for study to confirm this?"
Shep: "Correct."
Psych: "Have any other 'Reapers' besides Sovereign been spotted?"
Shep: "No."
Psych: "Have any other Beacons given others the same warning the one on Eden Prime gave you?"
Shep: "Nobody that I can confirm, no."
Psych: "So, to sum up, nobody else has experienced a Prothean beacon like the one you did, which you admit could have been tampered with by Saren prior to your interface with it. You believe that Sovereign - Saren's flagship - was really a sentient, sapient spaceship bent on the destruction of every living thing in the Galaxy, but have no proof other than the vision that the Beacon - which we've already established as an unreliable source of information - gave you. All of your interactions with this sapient ship were through a holographic display on Virmire, a base controlled by Saren. All this before Matriarch Benezia, working for Saren on Noveria, provided you with the ability to reach a world that appeared in your vision - and apropos in Liara T'Soni's interpretation of your vision. Since her body was never recovered, her cause of death remains unknown.

Once on this world you interacted with another warning message which only you could understand, before encountering a hologram named 'Vigil' which you've no proof Saren didn't plant, and cannot be recovered to verify its origin. The information provided to you by Vigil lead you to a Prothean reconstruction of a Mass Relay which allowed you to enter the Presidium long after Saren had taken control, and fight him to the death. Twice."
Shep: .... /Renegade Punch!



So, yes, in the end you have a person who can't prove what they saw wasn't a ploy all along and may still be acting under their delusion. This person is a highly trained killer, and shows up two years after being declared KIA working for one of the enemies of the Council asking for the Council's help to fight the nightmarish creatures he claims are still lurking in Dark Space.

I'd call that certifiable.

And yeah that all still avoids the obvious-a-ten-year-old-could-think-of-it question.  If Saren was "playing" Shepard how is it the investigation of Saren by Shepard constantly kept Shepard hot on Saren's heels instead of on the opposite side of the galaxy somewhere AND led to the ultimate defeat of Saren's plans?  Remember, according to the Council, Saren's plans were to attack the Citadel with the Geth by surprise.

Shepard:  So, what you're saying is I found Saren on Ilos, one planet out of millions we know of, because of misinformation he constantly planted in my path that could have easily sent me somewhere else?

Council:  Um.... *fidgets nervously*

Shepard:  Saren didn't want a human Spectre, so his brilliant plan to discredit me and make us humans look dumb was to have me kill a bunch of his geth, save a colony or two, blow up stuff he made, and kill him in the end?

Council:  We apolgize for being so stupid, we should should have to re-apply for our license to breath.

Shepard:  You do realize if he was pumping me misinformation that he could have sent me to Dantooine, put some geth at multiple places to put up mild resistance, and kept me busy chasing nothing long enough for him to finish whatever he was really doing, right?  Not even anything in Virmire pointed directly to Ilos, you know that right?

Council:  You've... you've made your point.  You're sorta repeating yourself.

Shepard:  I'm not paying attention to how you're responding - how does it feel?

[MassEffect762]

Been there done that.

Just google "Asari Councilor Oni"

Oh wait...nvm

[JPanzerj]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Very original question.

According to the Toronto Police's Annual Report from 2006 City Councillor John Fillion ended his term and the Service melded for a common cause.

[Scimal]

Almostfaceman wrote...


And yeah that all still avoids the obvious-a-ten-year-old-could-think-of-it question.  If Saren was "playing" Shepard how is it the investigation of Saren by Shepard constantly kept Shepard hot on Saren's heels instead of on the opposite side of the galaxy somewhere AND led to the ultimate defeat of Saren's plans?  Remember, according to the Council, Saren's plans were to attack the Citadel with the Geth by surprise.

Well, just to point out... Saren did attack the Citadel with the Geth by surprise. His plan worked up until the point that Shepard simply defeated him.

Also, Shepard was constantly on Saren's heels, but never caught him. Seems suspicious, right? Even on Virmire, where they faced off, Saren slipped through Shepard's fingers - and killed off a teammate to boot.

If you know where your greatest threat is and what they're doing, they're much easier to deal with. If Shepard is continuously chasing Saren and Saren's top lieutenants, all Saren has to do is keep laying out bread crumbs for Shepard to follow - completely distracting Shepard from the giant Geth fleet massing behind the Veil and looking for Sovereign.

Shepard:  So, what you're saying is I found Saren on Ilos, one planet out of millions we know of, because of misinformation he constantly planted in my path that could have easily sent me somewhere else?

Council:  Um.... *fidgets nervously*

You're setting up a false dichotomy. You're implying that either Saren isn't intelligent enough to manipulate Shepard at all, or Shepard is dumb as a rock and is being lead around by the nose.

The verisimiltude lies somewhere inbetween.

Shepard:  Saren didn't want a human Spectre, so his brilliant plan to discredit me and make us humans look dumb was to have me kill a bunch of his geth, save a colony or two, blow up stuff he made, and kill him in the end?

Council:  We apolgize for being so stupid, we should should have to re-apply for our license to breath.

Uh... what? When was that ever his plan? That was his defense - a ploy, not his plan. It was a red herring.

Shepard:  You do realize if he was pumping me misinformation that he could have sent me to Dantooine, put some geth at multiple places to put up mild resistance, and kept me busy chasing nothing long enough for him to finish whatever he was really doing, right?  Not even anything in Virmire pointed directly to Ilos, you know that right?

Council:  You've... you've made your point.  You're sorta repeating yourself.

...Again, Saren accomplished his surprise attack. You keep acting like Saren somehow failed with any of his objectives. He was incredibly successful until Shepard was simply better than him in close-quarters combat. If Shepard had died to Saren, the Reapers would be having Asari-chow right now.

Virmire never pointed directly to Ilos. The vision from the Eden Prime beacon and Noveria did. Particularly Noveria, which could've been the "Oops, Shepard was too dumb to recognize Ilos from the vision... better plant Benezia on Noveria to give up the Mu relay info."

[Kieve KRS]

The argument that's been eating away at me from the ME2 meeting isn't a mind-meld one, just a simple "ERROR: Invalid Logic Loop"

...At the council meeting...
Shep: "Saren was an organic.The Geth would never accept him as their leader. They only followed him because he was Sovereign's agent."
Asari: "Saren was a compelling and charismatic individual. He convinced the Geth the Reapers were real - just as he convinced you."
Turian: "It was part of his plan to attack the Citadel. The Reapers are just a myth. One you insist on perpetuating!"
Asari: "We believe that you believe it, but that doesn't make it true."
Shep: "Go back to Ilos and talk to Vigil. Or just look at what's left of Sovereign. It's obvious the technology is more advanced than ours."
Salarian: "The hologram on Ilos is no longer functional, and we have found nothing to suggest that Sovereign was not a Geth creation."
Asari: "The Geth are capable of remarkable technological achievements. This is probably why Saren recruited them."
Turian: "This Reaper theory proves-"
Shep: "Bull****"
Turian: "Not what I was about to say, but accurate."
Shep: ® "If you're really this stupid, I should have let those Geth ships have the Destiny Ascension, and you with it!"
Turian: "And perhaps you should never have been made a Spectre in the first place."
Asari: *ahem* "We are all grateful for your actions in the Battle of-"
Shep: "First you tell me Saren was manipulating the Geth, deceiving me. Then you try to say the Reaper - the reason they were willing to follow him! - was a Geth creation? People that ignorant don't deserve to carry galactic will on their shoulders."
...*moment of silence*...
Salarian: "This assumes Saren's flagship, Sovereign, was in fact a Reaper at all. It is possible the Geth constructed it to aid Saren's endeavors, believing he would bring forth the actual Reapers."
Asari: "The points are not mutually exclusive, Commander."
Shep: (P) "But think on it. Without Sovereign already in his control, what value would the Geth see in him? An organic presenting itself to the machine collective, with vague mythical promises? The only reason they followed him was because of Sovereign."
Turian: "He could have deluded them with false information! Like these 'visions,' planted in the Prothean beacon-"
Salarian: (to Turian) "No, reports stated that Sovereign was already present at the attack on Eden Prime, before he reached the beacon."
Asari: "You do make your point, Commander. Your evidence is circumstantial at best, but hard to refute."
Turian: "It still changes nothing! We have seen no evidence to suggest these 'Reapers' are returning, if they exist at all. We cannot mobilize Council forces against phantoms."
Shep: "Take engineers and scientists to Ilos then. Try to restore power and get Vigil working. That facility survived the Reaper purge, there might be more we can learn from it once it's restored."
Anderson: "And there's still the matter of the disappearing colonies in the Terminus."
Turian: "The Terminus Systems are outside our jurisdiction, Councilor Anderson. Sending Council vessels into the region could spark any number of conflicts, or outright war. Our forces are still rebuilding from the attack two years ago."
Salarian: "Even if we accept Commander Shepard's logic, we simply do not have the forces to spare patrolling human colonies."
...Conversation turns to reinstating Shepard as a Spectre, game proceeds as planned...

I know, got carried away with dialogue I guess. I just found it very bizarre that on one hand they try to say the Geth created Sovereign, and on the other, that Saren was leading them around by the nose. Desperately wish I'd had the chance to call them on it in that conversation - as I illustrated, it might have opened up an extra avenue of preparation for ME3, at the very least.

[Moiaussi]

Scimal wrote...

...Again, Saren accomplished his surprise attack. You keep acting like Saren somehow failed with any of his objectives. He was incredibly successful until Shepard was simply better than him in close-quarters combat. If Shepard had died to Saren, the Reapers would be having Asari-chow right now.

Virmire never pointed directly to Ilos. The vision from the Eden Prime beacon and Noveria did. Particularly Noveria, which could've been the "Oops, Shepard was too dumb to recognize Ilos from the vision... better plant Benezia on Noveria to give up the Mu relay info."

Are you even reading what you are responding to?

Saren managed this because the Council kept dismissing Shepard. If they had listened ,what would have been the point of the whole 'deception?'

And SAREN LOST! He LOST! Because of the information Shepard gathered, which the Council suggests that Saren planted to decieve Shepard, Shepard was there to stop him.

[Scimal]

Moiaussi wrote...


Are you even reading what you are responding to?

The vast majority of the time, yes. Very carefully. Sometimes, I do get tired and skim.

Saren managed this because the Council kept dismissing Shepard. If they had listened ,what would have been the point of the whole 'deception?'

One more red herring. If they had listened to Shepard and started to take action, Saren could've just initiated another plan. A "Plan C".  Maybe it would've been more rushed and not nearly as successful as Plan A and Plan B, but we'll never know.

Remember, we're debating why the Council doesn't believe Shepard - not whether or not Saren actually did what I propose. All it takes is a plausible theory behind the actions Shepard describes without resorting to "The Reapers Did It."

If -hypothetically- Saren's "Plan A" was to kill the colony and sabotage the beacon to kill the next person to use it (which almost happened to Ash) and "Plan B" was to implant false info about "Reapers" into the person's head and then leave them bread-crumbs around the galaxy so Saren could keep a close eye on who was following him... Is that competely implausible?

Would it not support the evidence - as seen from the Council's POV - just as well?

The Beacon was sabotaged before Shep got there - Saren had plenty of time. Shep survived.

Benezia was planted on Noveria and gave the Mu relay information to Shep because she was told to while under Indoctrination.

The Thorian was a wild goose chase for a "Cipher" given to Shepard by one of Benezia's followers that would allow him to "understand" Protheans. While on Ilos, let me remind you, that Shepard encountered two different instances of Prothean communication technology - one of which the rest of Shepard's team couldn't understand (which makes sense if Shepard was being duped or crazy), and one which Saren had ample time to plant (which everyone - miraculously - understood).

Virmire seems to be where Shepard caught up to Saren, since Saren's actions appeared rushed. He wasn't ready for Shepard's arrival, and threw together a quick plan that involved killing off one of Shepard's team and running away while having another "oddly convenient" hologram that sold itself as a Reaper to Shepard.

While Shepard was running around Ilos defusing Saren's ploys and playing catch-up, Saren catches the entire Citadel defense with its pants down, finds a way inside, and starts taking over. All while Shepard is still half a galaxy away.

Is it plausible that Shepard was strung along and played for a fool by Saren - who was one of the best Spectres available (and far more experienced as a Spectre)? 

I don't see why not. That's the question at stake here. It's not a lot of elaborate planning - and that's the beauty of it. All you need is something like this:

1) Sabotage beacon to destroy the brain of the next person.
2) If (1) fails, plant a fake message about a galaxy-destroy civilization to make the person seem crazy.
3) If (2) happens, plant Benezia on Noveria with Mu relay information.
4) If (2) happens, let now-angry Thorian deal with pursuer.
5) If (4) fails, reach the Mu Relay first.
6) If anybody breaks into my office, play safe-guarding message about crazy galaxy-destroying sentient A.I.
7) After (5), proceed directly to the Conduit.
8) If pursuer lands on Ilos at the same time, stall as long as possible. Can use pre-fabricated "Prothean" V.I.

After that, I should be on the Presidium with Sovereign and the Geth dealing with the fleet.

That's not even 10 steps. Saren had years to plan. I could come up with a similar plan of action in under a week. Under a day if the entire rest of my invasion was set and didn't need to be managed.

It's not that difficult.

And SAREN LOST! He LOST! Because of the information Shepard gathered, which the Council suggests that Saren planted to decieve Shepard, Shepard was there to stop him.

Saren lost because Shepard was better in combat. Saren's plan was successful (very successful) up until the singular point that Shepard came through the Conduit and confronted him. An incredibly effective invasion force preceded by a perfectly-played red herring allowed Saren to get into the Presidium and take over the Citadel.

Saren's only flaw was that he wasn't better than Shepard with a gun. It was not the information Shepard had. If Shepard had taken an extended urinal break and came back to find Saren taking over the Citadel, it would be the exact same outcome once Shepard killed Saren. The differences would be that Feros would now be under the Thorian's control, Benezia would be alive, and Liara would be starving to death in a bubble. An even better win for Saren.

The information Shepard gathered seems incredibly real to the player (a testament to BW's storytelling capabilities) because the player went through and "witnessed" everything. The Council didn't. The Council was given periodic updates by someone they eventually suspected was mentally unfit for duty, but was "apparently" giving Sovereign a run for his money.

Retrospectively, saying that Saren played Shepard for most of the events of ME1 is the easiest, and most plausible, explanation the Council accepts. The alternative - that Shepard can speak Prothean, talked to a 300 M.Y.O. sentient A.I. driven spaceship bent on destroying all space-faring life in the Galaxy, and was hot on the heels of an ex-Spectre who was slowly being unwillingly dominated by something completely undetectable - is almost ludicrous without significant proof.

That proof has only begun to show up during the events of ME2 - the findings on the caretakers, the findings on the relays, larger chunks of Sovereign being recovered. While the information is there, it hasn't disseminated yet.

Then Shepard shows up (after being dead for 2 years) working for an avowed enemy of the Council with a crew that includes assassins, mercenaries, thieves, and mentally unstable prison inmates - and wants to know what's been done to prep for the Reaper invasion.

In short: ME2 doesn't support any "Shepard isn't crazy" theory. If anything, it confirms the Council's suspicions that Shepard is mentally unstable, and they take the appropriate action - appeasing Shepard's request while concertedly taking him out of the equation by pushing Shepard out of Citadel space.

[Homebound]

How would YOU feel if you had to meld minds with a homicidal space-monkey?

[Almostfaceman]

Scimal wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...


And yeah that all still avoids the obvious-a-ten-year-old-could-think-of-it question.  If Saren was "playing" Shepard how is it the investigation of Saren by Shepard constantly kept Shepard hot on Saren's heels instead of on the opposite side of the galaxy somewhere AND led to the ultimate defeat of Saren's plans?  Remember, according to the Council, Saren's plans were to attack the Citadel with the Geth by surprise.

Well, just to point out... Saren did attack the Citadel with the Geth by surprise. His plan worked up until the point that Shepard simply defeated him.

Also, Shepard was constantly on Saren's heels, but never caught him. Seems suspicious, right? Even on Virmire, where they faced off, Saren slipped through Shepard's fingers - and killed off a teammate to boot.

If you know where your greatest threat is and what they're doing, they're much easier to deal with. If Shepard is continuously chasing Saren and Saren's top lieutenants, all Saren has to do is keep laying out bread crumbs for Shepard to follow - completely distracting Shepard from the giant Geth fleet massing behind the Veil and looking for Sovereign.

Shepard:  So, what you're saying is I found Saren on Ilos, one planet out of millions we know of, because of misinformation he constantly planted in my path that could have easily sent me somewhere else?

Council:  Um.... *fidgets nervously*

You're setting up a false dichotomy. You're implying that either Saren isn't intelligent enough to manipulate Shepard at all, or Shepard is dumb as a rock and is being lead around by the nose.

The verisimiltude lies somewhere inbetween.

Shepard:  Saren didn't want a human Spectre, so his brilliant plan to discredit me and make us humans look dumb was to have me kill a bunch of his geth, save a colony or two, blow up stuff he made, and kill him in the end?

Council:  We apolgize for being so stupid, we should should have to re-apply for our license to breath.

Uh... what? When was that ever his plan? That was his defense - a ploy, not his plan. It was a red herring.

Shepard:  You do realize if he was pumping me misinformation that he could have sent me to Dantooine, put some geth at multiple places to put up mild resistance, and kept me busy chasing nothing long enough for him to finish whatever he was really doing, right?  Not even anything in Virmire pointed directly to Ilos, you know that right?

Council:  You've... you've made your point.  You're sorta repeating yourself.

...Again, Saren accomplished his surprise attack. You keep acting like Saren somehow failed with any of his objectives. He was incredibly successful until Shepard was simply better than him in close-quarters combat. If Shepard had died to Saren, the Reapers would be having Asari-chow right now.

Virmire never pointed directly to Ilos. The vision from the Eden Prime beacon and Noveria did. Particularly Noveria, which could've been the "Oops, Shepard was too dumb to recognize Ilos from the vision... better plant Benezia on Noveria to give up the Mu relay info."

Um, no Saren did not pull off the "surprise" part of the attack.  The Council was expecting an attack.  Now if Saren was "playing" Shepard don't ya think any normal Council person (or 10 year old) would expect that all this false information would have hidden the fact that the Citadel was a target for attack?

They were ready for him but it involved combat - ya know - combat?  Combat - where the outcome isn't certain because - ya know - it's combat.  Forces clash.  Sides use different weapons and tactics.  Even forces ready for a suprise attack can be defeated.  It turns out they didn't prepare perfectly, because they didn't know all of Saren's tactics (like having a back door into the Citadel called The Conduit and how powerful Nazara was).  You can't just simply ignore the fact that the game tells you the Council prepares for an attack on the Citadel.

Look, you really are over-thinking this.  My very simple point was, if Saren was "playing" Shepard (which he wasn't) then there would have to be a "play" for the Council to point at, at some point.  Hence after the successful rout of Saren's attack (which was looked-for) any kindergartner could see that Saren didn't "play" Shepard because Shepard was able to warn the Council of Saren's impending attack and they together fought off that attack.  It would be the worst "play" in history because it did nothing at all to get Shepard chasing after red herrings.

I'm interested in what the Council considers the "play" to be.

Saren:   "Muahahah!  My actual motivation to attack the Citadel is because I want complete control of that chocolate-covered donut plant in the Factory District!  I must hide this fact!  So I'll plant false information in this relay that does nothing to mask my intentions to attack the Citadel but instead makes up these Reapers!  Yes!  That way the choco-donut plant will be totally defenseless! Bwahahahaha!"

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 14 mars 2011 - 10:16 .

[Almostfaceman]

Hellbound555 wrote...

How would YOU feel if you had to meld minds with a homicidal space-monkey?

I would be afraid - you could afterwards feel compelled to throw your own feces about and actually enjoy it. 

[Moiaussi]

Scimal wrote...

One more red herring. If they had listened to Shepard and started to take action, Saren could've just initiated another plan. A "Plan C".  Maybe it would've been more rushed and not nearly as successful as Plan A and Plan B, but we'll never know.

Remember, we're debating why the Council doesn't believe Shepard - not whether or not Saren actually did what I propose. All it takes is a plausible theory behind the actions Shepard describes without resorting to "The Reapers Did It."

If -hypothetically- Saren's "Plan A" was to kill the colony and sabotage the beacon to kill the next person to use it (which almost happened to Ash) and "Plan B" was to implant false info about "Reapers" into the person's head and then leave them bread-crumbs around the galaxy so Saren could keep a close eye on who was following him... Is that competely implausible?

Would it not support the evidence - as seen from the Council's POV - just as well?

You still haven't provided any plausable explaination why Saren would do any of this. It is hardlly a meaningful cost to Council resources for an ALLIANCE ship to be following Saren around, especially since Saren is acknowledged to be a rogue agent. Is your premise that Saren went rogue and set the Geth at war just because he was bored and decided to become the Riddler?

The Beacon was sabotaged before Shep got there - Saren had plenty of time. Shep survived.

Saren didn't even have any reason to expect Shepard there at all. Were the bombs fake then? If Shepard hadn't defused them, the 'false' information in the beacon would have blown up. He also had no way of knowing who might trigger the beacon, so it couldn't have been a trap specificly for Shepard. IIRC, Shepard tosses either Ash or Kaiden out of the way so they don't get hit by the beacon.

Benezia was planted on Noveria and gave the Mu relay information to Shep because she was told to while under Indoctrination.

And conveniently volunteered to die for this elabourate hoax?

The Thorian was a wild goose chase for a "Cipher" given to Shepard by one of Benezia's followers that would allow him to "understand" Protheans. While on Ilos, let me remind you, that Shepard encountered two different instances of Prothean communication technology - one of which the rest of Shepard's team couldn't understand (which makes sense if Shepard was being duped or crazy), and one which Saren had ample time to plant (which everyone - miraculously - understood).

And the Thorian also volunteered to die? It told Shepard it gave information to Saren regarding Ilos. And if Shepard had simply left Saren's agent in the coccoon? Or just shot her thinking she was another creeper duplicate? And Shalia volunteerd to die, why? For a hoax that accomplishes what, exactly?

Virmire seems to be where Shepard caught up to Saren, since Saren's actions appeared rushed. He wasn't ready for Shepard's arrival, and threw together a quick plan that involved killing off one of Shepard's team and running away while having another "oddly convenient" hologram that sold itself as a Reaper to Shepard.

So you are saying Saren conveniently knew where Shepard wasn't, yet left the bomb there to destroy his research?

While Shepard was running around Ilos defusing Saren's ploys and playing catch-up, Saren catches the entire Citadel defense with its pants down, finds a way inside, and starts taking over. All while Shepard is still half a galaxy away.

And yet he inexplicably leaves the door open for Shepard to follow, and even though Shepard is there because of the information you claim Saren specificly planted to lead him there. Meanwhile the Normandy is still back in time for the battle.

Is it plausible that Shepard was strung along and played for a fool by Saren - who was one of the best Spectres available (and far more experienced as a Spectre)? 

I don't see why not. That's the question at stake here. It's not a lot of elaborate planning - and that's the beauty of it. All you need is something like this:

Would you like to buy a bridge? I happen to have the deed to a nice one in Brooklyn. I am sure you will think my selling it to you is plausable based on the rest of your logic....

1) Sabotage beacon to destroy the brain of the next person.
2) If (1) fails, plant a fake message about a galaxy-destroy civilization to make the person seem crazy.
3) If (2) happens, plant Benezia on Noveria with Mu relay information.
4) If (2) happens, let now-angry Thorian deal with pursuer.
5) If (4) fails, reach the Mu Relay first.
6) If anybody breaks into my office, play safe-guarding message about crazy galaxy-destroying sentient A.I.
7) After (5), proceed directly to the Conduit.
8) If pursuer lands on Ilos at the same time, stall as long as possible. Can use pre-fabricated "Prothean" V.I.

1) is rendered completely academic by the bombs planted to go off on rather short timers, not to mention the Geth actively trying to kill Shepard.
2) See (1), not to mention the question of why use a fake beacon to destroy a random persons brain. It could have been the dock worker. What would that have accomplished? OMG, a dock worker was killed by an exploding artifact instead of the Geth army.... and the Council would do what based on that, exactly?
3) So Benezia just conveniently volunteers to suicide to perpetuate a hoax which has no appearant purpose.....
4) A Thorian which claims to have given Saren the information you claim is faked. Now the Thorian is appearantly in on the hoax...  despite Geth trying to kill it too.
5) The Mu Relay, the location of which is found by way of the 'fake' information Shepard gains from steps (1) through (4)
6) Again, this accomplishes what, exactly?
7) The location of which is contained in the 'fake' information that Saren appearantly wants everyone to know....
8) Which would have been academic and unneccessary if Saren hadn't planted all that 'fake' information to lead people there, as opposed to lead them to some remote world much more distant. Not to mention that there was a Geth fleet at Illos and it wouldn't have fit through the conduit. Taking it out would almost certainly have saved lives.

After that, I should be on the Presidium with Sovereign and the Geth dealing with the fleet.

That's not even 10 steps. Saren had years to plan. I could come up with a similar plan of action in under a week. Under a day if the entire rest of my invasion was set and didn't need to be managed.

It's not that difficult.

The fleet, which if they had taken the warnings seriously, would have been on high alert status rather than caught off guard.

Saren lost because Shepard was better in combat. Saren's plan was successful (very successful) up until the singular point that Shepard came through the Conduit and confronted him. An incredibly effective invasion force preceded by a perfectly-played red herring allowed Saren to get into the Presidium and take over the Citadel.

Saren did not need to leave any clues to get into the presidium or take over the Citadel. You haven't given any explaination what the clues accomplished. Why lead people to where you they might be able to stop you rather than around in circles or to some remote quadrant where they can't get back in time from? 

It makes no sense.

[Scimal]

Almostfaceman wrote...


Um, no Saren did not pull off the "surprise" part of the attack.  The Council was expecting an attack.

... Exactly what game were you playing?



"Yeah, we were totally expecting it. That's why we let Sovereign and the Geth totally obliterate half our fleet without firing back and left the Citadel station completely vulnerable. 'Cause that's how we roll!"

You can't just simply ignore the fact that the game tells you the Council prepares for an attack on the Citadel.

Assuming it does tell you (I don't remember specifically reading it), they really suck at prepping for an attack then.

Look, you really are over-thinking this.  My very simple point was, if Saren was "playing" Shepard (which he wasn't) then there would have to be a "play" for the Council to point at, at some point.

Saren had been playing the Council for a while. Maybe years before Shepard exposed him. That's why you had to find proof of Saren's involvement in the first place, that Shepard just wasn't being xenophobic.

Hence after the successful rout of Saren's attack (which was looked-for) any kindergartner could see that Saren didn't "play" Shepard because Shepard was able to warn the Council of Saren's impending attack and they together fought off that attack.

Actually, it was Admiral Hackett and the 5th Fleet who did most of the fending off. You know, the guy who believes Shepard and had been keeping track of Shepard throughout the game.

The Council - if they did prep for the attack - did a ******-poor job of it and pretty much got their butts handed to them.

Let's not forget, that it wasn't until Saren's death that Sovereign was vulnerable. If Saren had survived, Sovereign would've survived, and Sovereign was inside the Citadel with the arms closed and ready to take control. It would've been a shut-out.

The Citadel/Alliance forces were only able to rout the Geth forces because Shepard killed Saren/Sovereign.

It would be the worst "play" in history because it did nothing at all to get Shepard chasing after red herrings.

Didn't have to get Shepard chasing after red herrings. Just had to keep him at a distance that Shepard couldn't catch up.

I'm interested in what the Council considers the "play" to be.

Saren:   "Muahahah!  My actual motivation to attack the Citadel is because I want complete control of that chocolate-covered donut plant in the Factory District!  I must hide this fact!  So I'll plant false information in this relay that does nothing to mask my intentions to attack the Citadel but instead makes up these Reapers!  Yes!  That way the choco-donut plant will be totally defenseless! Bwahahahaha!"

How logical are the motivations of the criminally insane to begin with?

Maybe he snapped - hated humans so much that allowing them to progress throughout the galaxy was a final straw. Blow up the Citadel, disable the entire network. Then humans are stuck to their local systems.

Maybe he was planning a coup (which is one of the options) - with control of the Citadel, there's not much the rest of the galaxy could do without having things go awry.

[Scimal]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

You still haven't provided any plausable explaination why Saren would do any of this. It is hardlly a meaningful cost to Council resources for an ALLIANCE ship to be following Saren around, especially since Saren is acknowledged to be a rogue agent. Is your premise that Saren went rogue and set the Geth at war just because he was bored and decided to become the Riddler?[/quote]

A coup, destroy the citadel to stop the spread of humanity, help his invisible "Reaper" allies... The guy was suffering from delusions of grandeur, depression, and clearly mentally unstable.

[quote]Saren didn't even have any reason to expect Shepard there at all.[/quote]

It doesn't matter that it was Shepard. It could've been anybody.

Plan A: Sabotage the Beacon and blow up the colony.
Plan B: In-case Plan A fails, plant false info.

It could've been Ash, it could've been Shep, it could've been a lowly dock worker that was taking a nap behind some boxes.

If it was a nobody, the plan continues as-if the colony had been blown up - nobody is going to listen to a dock worker.

If it's somebody significant (since Saren knew the Spectres were involved), then go to Plan B and keep an eye on them.

[quote]If Shepard hadn't defused them, the 'false' information in the beacon would have blown up.[/quote]

And? What? That's sort of the definition of a backup plan - when your first plan doesn't work the way you think it will, you resort to a backup plan.

In this case, "In case the bombs don't go off and destroy the colony and someone tries to use the Beacon."

[quote]He also had no way of knowing who might trigger the beacon, so it couldn't have been a trap specificly for Shepard. IIRC, Shepard tosses either Ash or Kaiden out of the way so they don't get hit by the beacon.[/quote]

Right. Already pointed out how it doesn't matter that it was Shepard. However, just because it happened to be Shepard, the rest of Plan B had to be implemented.

[quote]And conveniently volunteered to die for this elabourate hoax?[/quote]

The Council doesn't question the existence of the Indoctrination effect. We even learn later that it convinced Protheans to turn against their own kind and suicide into bunkers protecting those hiding from the Reapers.

So, yeah... Not that far out there.

[quote]And the Thorian also volunteered to die? It told Shepard it gave information to Saren regarding Ilos. And if Shepard had simply left Saren's agent in the coccoon? Or just shot her thinking she was another creeper duplicate? And Shalia volunteerd to die, why? For a hoax that accomplishes what, exactly?[/quote]

I don't think it actually mentioned Ilos.

Plus, why would the Thorian's life matter to Saren? Saren got what he wanted out of it. If it kills Shepard, problem solved. If Shepard kills it, a little more time to plan.

If Shep left Shiala in the coccoon, then he wouldn't have the Cipher. Simple as that.

[quote]So you are saying Saren conveniently knew where Shepard wasn't, yet left the bomb there to destroy his research?[/quote]

Huh? No. I'm saying that Saren was keeping Shepard at a carefully planned distance away, and on Virmire Shepard just happened to get too close, so Saren had to think up a quick plan to get out of there. The research was valuable, but not a necessity.

[quote]And yet he inexplicably leaves the door open for Shepard to follow...[/quote]

A few dozen Guarding the way isn't "open."

[quote]...and even though Shepard is there because of the information you claim Saren specificly planted to lead him there. Meanwhile the Normandy is still back in time for the battle.[/quote]

I don't get what this is supposed to point out. That the Mass Relays exist and allow quick trans-galactic travel? 'Cause that's how the SR-1 got there.

[quote]
Would you like to buy a bridge? I happen to have the deed to a nice one in Brooklyn. I am sure you will think my selling it to you is plausable based on the rest of your logic.... [/quote]

You're not actually providing counter-arguments or counter-evidence. You're just waxing hypothetical.

[quote]1) Sabotage beacon to destroy the brain of the next person.
2) If (1) fails, plant a fake message about a galaxy-destroy civilization to make the person seem crazy.
3) If (2) happens, plant Benezia on Noveria with Mu relay information.
4) If (2) happens, let now-angry Thorian deal with pursuer.
5) If (4) fails, reach the Mu Relay first.
6) If anybody breaks into my office, play safe-guarding message about crazy galaxy-destroying sentient A.I.
7) After (5), proceed directly to the Conduit.
8) If pursuer lands on Ilos at the same time, stall as long as possible. Can use pre-fabricated "Prothean" V.I.[/quote]

[quote]1) is rendered completely academic by the bombs planted to go off on rather short timers, not to mention the Geth actively trying to kill Shepard.[/quote]

... I'm convinced at this point that you have no idea what a backup plan is. It is the plan that you use in case the first one fails. You know... Like having a knife in case a gun doesn't fire.

Your excuse here is essentially, "Why wouldn't the gun fire?"

[quote]2) See (1), not to mention the question of why use a fake beacon to destroy a random persons brain. It could have been the dock worker. What would that have accomplished? OMG, a dock worker was killed by an exploding artifact instead of the Geth army.... and the Council would do what based on that, exactly?[/quote]

Nothing, and Saren wouldn't have to string anyone along - instead resorting to his original plan.

[quote]3) So Benezia just conveniently volunteers to suicide to perpetuate a hoax which has no appearant purpose.....[/quote]

Hey, people are willing to die for a lot of things. All it takes is a charismatic leader. I could name you half a dozen examples.

[quote]4) A Thorian which claims to have given Saren the information you claim is faked. Now the Thorian is appearantly in on the hoax...  despite Geth trying to kill it too.[/quote]

I never claimed the info was fake. I only claimed that Saren didn't care whether it lived or died. He got what he wanted out of it, done.

[quote]5) The Mu Relay, the location of which is found by way of the 'fake' information Shepard gains from steps (1) through (4)[/quote]

Yeah. Ever plan a treasure hunt? That's how it works.

[quote]6) Again, this accomplishes what, exactly?[/quote]

The person is seen as a lunatic, adding more chaos to an already convoluted situation that the Council has to sort out.

[quote]7) The location of which is contained in the 'fake' information that Saren appearantly wants everyone to know....[/quote]

"Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer."

[quote]8) Which would have been academic and unneccessary if Saren hadn't planted all that 'fake' information to lead people there, as opposed to lead them to some remote world much more distant. Not to mention that there was a Geth fleet at Illos and it wouldn't have fit through the conduit. Taking it out would almost certainly have saved lives. [/quote]

Having the people tracking you somewhere you can't see them doesn't help you.

The Geth fleet wasn't at Ilos. Geth forces were.

[quote]

The fleet, which if they had taken the warnings seriously, would have been on high alert status rather than caught off guard.[/quote]

Exactly... But they never did take the warnings seriously. Probably because they sound pretty crazy to anyone else who's only getting snippets of information.

[quote]Saren did not need to leave any clues to get into the presidium or take over the Citadel. You haven't given any explaination what the clues accomplished. Why lead people to where you they might be able to stop you rather than around in circles or to some remote quadrant where they can't get back in time from? [/quote]

Because knowing where your enemy is and what they're doing remains a much better option than not knowing where they are "for sure" and not knowing what their next step is.

[Lapis Lazuli]

Somebody should embrace eternity with Manuel. He obviously came in contact with a beacon or something.

[Labrev]

The Council can't make significant decisions unless they have a basis that is both irrefutable and factual. IMO, that makes them very poor leaders and foolish decision-makers, but whatever.

The problem with that is, even if the asari councillor did agree to mind melding with Shepard, what she'd see would be dismissed as non-factual. The vision burned into Shepard's head is ultimately, just that. A vision. They won't agree to act on it, never mind that they likely wouldn't be able to make sense of it and may not be convinced it has anything to do with the Reapers.

Other than that, it would be a very awkward request. In short, forget it.

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Scimal wrote...

A coup, destroy the citadel to stop the spread of humanity, help his invisible "Reaper" allies... The guy was suffering from delusions of grandeur, depression, and clearly mentally unstable. [/quote]

But how does this help him accomplish any of that?

[quote]It doesn't matter that it was Shepard. It could've been anybody.

Plan A: Sabotage the Beacon and blow up the colony.
Plan B: In-case Plan A fails, plant false info.

It could've been Ash, it could've been Shep, it could've been a lowly dock worker that was taking a nap behind some boxes.

If it was a nobody, the plan continues as-if the colony had been blown up - nobody is going to listen to a dock worker.

If it's somebody significant (since Saren knew the Spectres were involved), then go to Plan B and keep an eye on them.[/quote]

But time spent playing with the beacon delays blowing up the colony... counterproductive. And 'could have been anybody?' Why bother messing about with a Prothean artifact that was there before Saren arrived, that he had ZERO opportunity to plant instead of simply telling gullible dockworker 42 or having the Geth 'drop' a datapad. Unless you are saying that the Coucil are accusing the entire Alliance team on Eden (which would include Ashley, btw) of being in on this?

[quote]And? What? That's sort of the definition of a backup plan - when your first plan doesn't work the way you think it will, you resort to a backup plan.

In this case, "In case the bombs don't go off and destroy the colony and someone tries to use the Beacon."[/quote]

That is the most assinine backup plan ever imagined. How does that plan backup anything? You STILL haven't explained what is gained.

[quote]Right. Already pointed out how it doesn't matter that it was Shepard. However, just because it happened to be Shepard, the rest of Plan B had to be implemented.[/quote]

So he goes through all the trouble of somehow deciphering the workings of a prothean artifact on the spot, and reprograms it on the fly to transmit this hoax just in case it doesn't kill someone, even though the same size of normal bomb would have killed rather a lot more someones rather a lot more effectively?

And you still haven't given ANY explaination for the hoax. "A backup plan" isn't an explaination, not without an explaination of how the plan would be even remotely useful.

[quote]The Council doesn't question the existence of the Indoctrination effect. We even learn later that it convinced Protheans to turn against their own kind and suicide into bunkers protecting those hiding from the Reapers.

So, yeah... Not that far out there.[/quote]

Why does that part make sense but nothing else? Other than convenience? What we learn later is irrelevant, since we also learn a lot of other things that the Council doesn't. Presumably if they don't believe in the Reapers, they don't believe they used said technique on the Protheans, and Saren wasn't alive 50,000 years ago, so he didn't either.

[quote]I don't think it actually mentioned Ilos.

Plus, why would the Thorian's life matter to Saren? Saren got what he wanted out of it. If it kills Shepard, problem solved. If Shepard kills it, a little more time to plan.

If Shep left Shiala in the coccoon, then he wouldn't have the Cipher. Simple as that.[/quote]

It didn't have to mention Illos, and who cares what lives matter to Saren? Presumably the Thorian's life mattered to the Thorian. Keep in mind that you were arguing that the entire encounter was a set up to feed Shepard false information, and you were arguing that the cipher itself was just a hoax.

[quote]Huh? No. I'm saying that Saren was keeping Shepard at a carefully planned distance away, and on Virmire Shepard just happened to get too close, so Saren had to think up a quick plan to get out of there. The research was valuable, but not a necessity.[/quote]

You said Saren deliberately chose in such a way he would be able to kill one of Shepard's crew mates, in other words, that he set up that entire choice. If he had enough knowledge to do that, why not act slightly sooner and defuse/remove the bomb, since they only had the one?

[quote]A few dozen Guarding the way isn't "open."[/quote]

If it was closed, the guards would have been rather a lot more effective, wouldn't they? Instead of running the gauntlet, Shep would have actually had to fight them.

[
[quote]... I'm convinced at this point that you have no idea what a backup plan is. It is the plan that you use in case the first one fails. You know... Like having a knife in case a gun doesn't fire.

Your excuse here is essentially, "Why wouldn't the gun fire?"[/quote]

That would be a great arguement if what you are calling a backup plan was at least as useful as a knife. Saying it is a backup plan isn't an arguement unless you can show how it would be useful, and not completely counterproductive.

[quote]Nothing, and Saren wouldn't have to string anyone along - instead resorting to his original plan.[/quote]

So why not stick with plan A instead of wasting time on something that has negligible chance of doing anything useful?

[quote]Hey, people are willing to die for a lot of things. All it takes is a charismatic leader. I could name you half a dozen examples.[/quote]

But for this? right....

[quote]I never claimed the info was fake. I only claimed that Saren didn't care whether it lived or died. He got what he wanted out of it, done.[/quote]

Pardon, but you did. You said it was all a set up so that an agent of Saren's  could pass false information. Quit changing your story any time it is inconvenient to you.

[quote]Yeah. Ever plan a treasure hunt? That's how it works.[/quote]

So that is Saren's plan? This was all a cosmic treasure hunt? And your evidence is?

[quote]The person is seen as a lunatic, adding more chaos to an already convoluted situation that the Council has to sort out.[/quote]

So a random person is seen as a lunatic, which didn't seem to slow them down at all, yet Saren persisted with this nonsense? If he hadn't planted all this 'false' information, the person wouldn't have gotten anywhere near him.

[quote]"Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer."[/quote]

I don't think that means what you think that means. It does not mean 'hand your enemy your battle plans and a map to your secret base.'

[quote]Having the people tracking you somewhere you can't see them doesn't help you.

The Geth fleet wasn't at Ilos. Geth forces were.[/quote]

Because people tracking you should always be aided in finding you. That is brilliant strategy.... I hope if you ever commit any crime you follow it. And yes, there was a Geth fleet there. Joker mentions them on approach.

[quote]Exactly... But they never did take the warnings seriously. Probably because they sound pretty crazy to anyone else who's only getting snippets of information.[/quote]

If the information wasn't in the beacon, etc, they would have had even less warning, the citadel wouldn't have been retaken, and Saren would have won.

[quote]Because knowing where your enemy is and what they're doing remains a much better option than not knowing where they are "for sure" and not knowing what their next step is.[/quote]

Nothing ensured that Shepard would follow anything in any particular order. Nothing lends any credence to your statement.

[Almostfaceman]

 

"Yeah, we were totally expecting it. That's why we let Sovereign and the Geth totally obliterate half our fleet without firing back and left the Citadel station completely vulnerable. 'Cause that's how we roll!"
Assuming it does tell you (I don't remember specifically reading it), they really suck at prepping for an attack then.

Oh, you don't remember the whole conversation with Shepard where the Council says that Saren's strength was in surprise and now that they knew about his plans to attack he was no threat?  Of COURSE the Council prepared poorly for the attack.  I don't remember making the point that they did a great job.  My point was they prepared - because it wasn't a surprise.

Saren had been playing the Council for a while. Maybe years before Shepard exposed him. That's why you had to find proof of Saren's involvement in the first place, that Shepard just wasn't being xenophobic.

Yeah, I don't remember once saying that Saren hadn't fooled the Council at some point.  The point was in the end, after Saren's defeat, there was no way the Council could say SHEPARD had been played.

Actually, it was Admiral Hackett and the 5th Fleet who did most of the fending off. You know, the guy who believes Shepard and had been keeping track of Shepard throughout the game.

So, um, the Council having the 5th fleet handy and on alert and they all being prepared for an attack on the Citadel had nothing to do with it?  Oh, that's right.  In your imaginary universe the Council wasn't talking and coordinating with Udina at all when they told Shepard to blow it out his arse about going to Ilos.

The Council - if they did prep for the attack - did a ******-poor job of it and pretty much got their butts handed to them.

Again, there is no "if" about them prepping for an attack.  It's stated clearly in the game.  And they may have done a ****** poor job but yeah - I don't remember worrying about that point earlier. Yeah my point was about the "surprise" part you erroneously asserted.  But yes, Shepard as much as tells them their preparations are ******-poor when he's arguing to go to Ilos.

Didn't have to get Shepard chasing after red herrings. Just had to keep him at a distance that Shepard couldn't catch up.

Obviously if a Councilman is thinking about things later he/she would come to the conclusion that Saren should have taken the numerous opportunities to plant real "red herrings" for Shepard because yeah not doing so ended up with Saren being dead and the Geth forces defeated.

How logical are the motivations of the criminally insane to begin with?
Maybe he snapped - hated humans so much that allowing them to progress throughout the galaxy was a final straw. Blow up the Citadel, disable the entire network. Then humans are stuck to their local systems.
Maybe he was planning a coup (which is one of the options) - with control of the Citadel, there's not much the rest of the galaxy could do without having things go awry.

In neither game is Saren described by the Council as criminally insane or as someone who snapped. He is called a traitor.  Pretty much all we hear from them is that Saren is smart enough to "play" Shepard (which is easily disproved by Shepard afterwards) and Saren is charasmatic and clever (enlisting the Geth and Benezia).  They are trying to warn Shepard of what they think Saren is really doing with Shepard - misdirection by way of the imaginary Repears.  Annnd that leads us back to this conversation, where I'm saying post-attack analysis there is no way for any of them to maintain this "Saren played you Shepard" fantasy (even though they do).  Not unless they think the legendary Spectre suddenly turned totally incompetent. No they don't believe that.  They still think Shepard is distracted by - you got it - the "play" Saren used called the "Reapers".

[Scimal]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...



But how does this help him accomplish any of that?[/quote]

I'm going to say this right now; if you continue to use pronouns, the argument will keep going on forever.

I have no idea what you mean by "this" and "that."

I assume you mean how does "being mentally unstable" help him with "taking over the Citadel," because I can't find any other context.

Frankly, it just provides motivation. It doesn't directly help him, other than a reason for him to turn rogue. Just because someone is mentally unstable doesn't mean they turn into idiots, either.

[quote]But time spent playing with the beacon delays blowing up the colony... counterproductive.[/quote]

How long does it take to upload a 60-second long vision? Maybe 30 seconds? It's not a whole lot of time of Saren has had years to plan and the ability to interact with Prothean programming language before.

30 seconds to make sure your backup plan is in place is a very good cost: benefit ratio.

[quote]And 'could have been anybody?' Why bother messing about with a Prothean artifact that was there before Saren arrived, that he had ZERO opportunity to plant instead of simply telling gullible dockworker 42 or having the Geth 'drop' a datapad. Unless you are saying that the Coucil are accusing the entire Alliance team on Eden (which would include Ashley, btw) of being in on this?[/quote]

So, you're saying: Why not just drop a datapad vs. sabotage the Beacon, right?

What was special about Eden Prime? The Beacon. Sure, a datapad with Saren's plans would be handy to have - but it might be too obvious. Plus, the Council or the Alliance are going to investigate the Beacon regardless of any other available data. They would would want to know what's in the Beacon that Saren wanted, since Saren was obviously there for the Beacon to begin with.

[quote]
That is the most assinine backup plan ever imagined. How does that plan backup anything? You STILL haven't explained what is gained.[/quote]

Fine. What would you do if the bombs you planted didn't go off? How would you keep the Council off your back?

See, this is what I was saying before: You say the plan is assinine, but you don't explain how. You just say things and want me to take them as gospel.

How does it back up his plan? Saren's ultimate goal is to capture the Citadel. One of the parts of this plan is to use the information in the Beacon. Saren's initial plan is to blow the place up so nobody can use the Beacon again, thus eliminating any chance that someone follows him and keeping Saren under the Council's radar.

The backup plan is to put false information into the Beacon in case the bombs don't go off, meaning that the next person who tries to use the Beacon (as someone inevitably will) gets a fake vision. Either that person will be completely rebuffed by any serious authority, or if it's someone special (as Shepard, or any other Spectre/ Alliance official / etc. would be) then it puts them in a position that can be easily manipulated and monitored by the person who came up with the false information: Saren.


[quote]So he goes through all the trouble of somehow deciphering the workings of a prothean artifact on the spot...[/quote]

.... Right, 'cause it's not like Saren hasn't had a while - maybe years - and access to other Prothean artifacts (especially similar Beacons - like the two you find in ME2) or an advanced race of sentient A.I. creatures - to decipher anything.

[quote]...and reprograms it on the fly to transmit this hoax just in case it doesn't kill someone, even though the same size of normal bomb would have killed rather a lot more someones rather a lot more effectively?[/quote]

Bombs fail. Even in the future. Play LotSB. All Saren has to do is upload the equivalent of an executable to play a movie the next time someone uses it. Takes 30 seconds - if that.

[quote]And you still haven't given ANY explaination for the hoax. "A backup plan" isn't an explaination, not without an explaination of how the plan would be even remotely useful.[/quote]

If the Beacon doesn't get exploded by the bombs Saren planted on Eden Prime, the false information will cast serious doubts on the person who's exposed to it, eroding their support. Not only that, but if - on good faith - the support continues, the information should lead whoever is exposed to it on a fairly pre-planned path all around the galaxy. This has the benefit of being able to control the threat... to keep the threat at a safe distance and within sight, making the preparations for and the handling of said threat much easier to deal with.

A known threat is much, much easier to deal with than an unknown threat. If you send the person off galavanting across the galaxy where you can't watch them, they could come back and bite you in the butt.

[quote]Why does that part make sense but nothing else?[/quote]

Please, for the love of Pete... How does it make sense to you, and why doesn't the other stuff?! I cannot read your mind. It is becoming increasingly difficult to respond to your points when you don't let me in on why something makes sense in your head and why something else doesn't.

I don't get why you think planting false information to control a threat is a bad idea to you.

I don't get why you think a backup plan is a bad idea in the first place.

I don't get why you think it has to be Shepard in my hypothetical.

Every paragraph of yours I read I get more and more assured that you're either twisting the logic I'm presenting around or are unable to interpret it correctly in the first place.

[quote]What we learn later is irrelevant, since we also learn a lot of other things that the Council doesn't. Presumably if they don't believe in the Reapers, they don't believe they used said technique on the Protheans, and Saren wasn't alive 50,000 years ago, so he didn't either.[/quote]

Okay. Then the Indoctrination effect - which the Council believes in - made Benezia sacrifice herself after doling out the breadcrumb of info about the Mu Relay.

The Council assumes that Sovereign was either a found artifact or made by the Geth, and they tell you in ME2 that their best theory is that it was made by the Geth.

Maybe it was my mistake involving filler information, but the explanation for why Benezia killed herself is the same (and is the truth, in any case): The Indoctrination affect killed her. The only quibble is whether or not her "moment of clarity" was an act or genuine. Given her fanatical devotion to Saren, it's best to assume the worst - that it was an act that ended in her death as designed by Saren to keep Shepard at the appropriate distance.

[quote]It didn't have to mention Illos, and who cares what lives matter to Saren?[/quote]

You're the one who brought it up, you tell me. You're repeating exactly what I just answered your question with.

[quote]Presumably the Thorian's life mattered to the Thorian. Keep in mind that you were arguing that the entire encounter was a set up to feed Shepard false information, and you were arguing that the cipher itself was just a hoax.[/quote]

Right. Out of the given possibilities of Shepard's moves, visiting the Thorian to go after the information Saren was after was one of them.

So Saren sacrifices one of Benezia's troops, gets the information (which we can't actually prove was the Cipher because we never witnessed exactly what got transferred into Saren's head), and runs. The boondoggle with Feros has the side-effect of pissing off the Thorian quite a bit.

Shepard shows up, and from there few options exist: The Thorian kills Shepard - problem solved. The Thorian gives Shepard the same information it gave to Saren - which puts Shepard back on Saren's trail, or Shepard kills the Thorian - and Shepard has to go somewhere else (like Noveria) to find information that will put Shepard back on Saren's trail.

What actually happened was a combination: Shepard killed the Thorian and received the Cipher from Shiala, which is a double-win for Saren. Now, nobody can confirm what information the Cipher held because the Thorian is dead, Shiala is having some severe side-effects from being dominated, and Shepard is still safely on his trail.


[quote]You said Saren deliberately chose in such a way he would be able to kill one of Shepard's crew mates, in
other words, that he set up that entire choice.[/quote]

No, I implied that Saren - caught off guard by Shepard's appearance on Virmire - spotted the opportunity to score a quick blow against Shepard by seeing that Shepard's Team was in one area, and one of Shepard's squadmates in another. This would let Saren weaken Shepard's team considerably, and while Saren's forces were doing that, Saren could confront Shepard directly and delay the detonation until as many of Saren's forces were safely off-world.

Saren could've just wanted to kill both squadmates and thought Shepard wouldn't be able to decide between the two.

Like I've written a few times, Virmire is where Shepard seems to "catch up" to Saren - and Saren must make do with what's available.

[quote]If he had enough knowledge to do that, why not act slightly sooner and defuse/remove the bomb, since they only had the one?[/quote]

Like I said, Virmire was a rushed response - not as potentially planned as the rest of Saren's "ploy."

You tend to do worse in stressful situations.

[quote]If it was closed, the guards would have been rather a lot more effective, wouldn't they? Instead of running the gauntlet, Shep would have actually had to fight them.[/quote]

Yes. That says something about how effective the Geth were at protecting the Conduit, and nothing about whether or not Saren wanted the Conduit closed off.

I mean, the only way the player knows to run the Gauntlet is because of the handy-dandy countdown timer. If that timer wasn't there, you would never be forced to think, "I can't possibly destroy all these geth in this amount of time," and most people would probably destroy every last Geth first.

It was a bit meta-gamey, but that's how it was done.

[quote]
That would be a great arguement if what you are calling a backup plan was at least as useful as a knife. Saying it is a backup plan isn't an arguement unless you can show how it would be useful, and not completely counterproductive.[/quote]

Keeping your enemy in a position where you can observe and manipulate them isn't useful to you?

Mmkay. I want you as my nemesis.

[quote]So why not stick with plan A instead of wasting time on something that has negligible chance of doing anything useful?[/quote]

Plain A (which was "Blow up Eden Prime") failed.

[quote]But for this? right.... [/quote]

You only say that because you believe otherwise. Your subjective interpretation of reality allows you to scoff at most other explanations without much effort because of your convictions. The keyword here is subjective: Your personal interpretation.

With different experiences, your mindset could be different, and you could believe drastically different things than you do right now. Countless examples of this exist throughout history. What's perfectly ludicrous to you is perfectly acceptable to others, and vice versa.

[quote]Pardon, but you did. You said it was all a set up so that an agent of Saren's  could pass false information. Quit changing your story any time it is inconvenient to you.[/quote]

Did I? Care to quote? I don't generally go back to read my previous posts.

[quote]So that is Saren's plan? This was all a cosmic treasure hunt? And your evidence is?[/quote]

Metaphor. It was a metaphor. A treasure hunt is a game where you plan a circumloquitous route for someone else to follow by providing clues and riddles, similar to the effect Saren could've had on Shepard.

[quote]So a random person is seen as a lunatic, which didn't seem to slow them down at all, yet Saren persisted with this nonsense? If he hadn't planted all this 'false' information, the person wouldn't have gotten anywhere near him.[/quote]

Yes. You're right. I've already elucidated quite a bit about how it's often better to know where your enemy is rather than having them wander off and come back later.

[quote]I don't think that means what you think that means. It does not mean 'hand your enemy your battle plans and a map to your secret base.'[/quote]

Well, kind of. It means that the more intimately you know your enemy, the better you can predict (and ergo, prepare) for their actions.

Part of my argument thus far has been that Saren kept Shepard at a "behind, but not too far behind" distance via information "breadcrumbs" which set Shepard on a pre-planned path which would allow Saren to adequately predict Shepard's next moves.

[quote]
Because people tracking you should always be aided in finding you. That is brilliant strategy.... I hope if you ever commit any crime you follow it. And yes, there was a Geth fleet there. Joker mentions them on approach.[/quote]

That would depend on the scale of my crime. Robbing a convenience store isn't quite on par with overthrowing an international government. One requires more planning, more finesse, and better backup plans.

One painfully obvious advantage to telling your nemesis where you're going to be is the ability to set a trap for them. Maybe several, if you're feeling redundant. Gotta have those backup plans.

Oh, and thanks for correcting me on the Geth. I had forgotten about that.

[quote]If the information wasn't in the beacon, etc, they would have had even less warning, the citadel wouldn't have been retaken, and Saren would have won.[/quote]

Yup. That would be Plan (A) - blow up the Beacon. Pretty good plan, if you ask me.

Unless Shepard was taking a nap and woke up during the invasion, then Shepard could've still fought and killed Saren, which could've allowed the Citadel to be retaken.

[quote]Nothing ensured that Shepard would follow anything in any particular order. Nothing lends any credence to your statement.
[/quote]

I don't remember saying that things had to be followed in a particular order. In fact, planning for a particular order of actions involves so many variables it's not worth it unless you have a lot of time and know your enemy intimately.

[Scimal]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Oh, you don't remember the whole conversation with Shepard where the Council says that Saren's strength was in surprise and now that they knew about his plans to attack he was no threat?  Of COURSE the Council prepared poorly for the attack.  I don't remember making the point that they did a great job.  My point was they prepared - because it wasn't a surprise.

Nope, I don't.

I'll have to see if I can find it later.

Yeah, I don't remember once saying that Saren hadn't fooled the Council at some point.  The point was in the end, after Saren's defeat, there was no way the Council could say SHEPARD had been played.

Mmkay. How? What solid, irrefutable evidence exists that Shepard was never duped by Saren at any point in time during the game?

So, um, the Council having the 5th fleet handy and on alert and they all being prepared for an attack on the Citadel had nothing to do with it?

Well, actually, Admiral Hackett took pro-active action and had the 5th Fleet standing by because he believed Shepard was telling the truth about the scale of the invasion. I don't ever recall the Council ordering the 5th Fleet to do anything (and why would they? The Alliance wasn't under Council command).

Oh, that's right.  In your imaginary universe the Council wasn't talking and coordinating with Udina at all when they told Shepard to blow it out his arse about going to Ilos.

Maybe. We don't have proof one way or the other.

  And they may have done a ****** poor job but yeah - I don't remember worrying about that point earlier. Yeah my point was about the "surprise" part you erroneously asserted.  But yes, Shepard as much as tells them their preparations are ******-poor when he's arguing to go to Ilos.

Then I shall reform my argument. Saren was successful in avoiding an appopriate resonse to his invasion, then, and not the surprise attack.

Obviously if a Councilman is thinking about things later he/she would come to the conclusion that Saren should have taken the numerous opportunities to plant real "red herrings" for Shepard because yeah not doing so ended up with Saren being dead and the Geth forces defeated.

Why? What's the benefit to red hearrings as opposed to keeping Shepard at a pre-defined distance?

In neither game is Saren described by the Council as criminally insane or as someone who snapped. He is called a traitor.

I thought Saren's actions spoke for themselves. I'm also pretty sure the Council mentions Sarens mental deteriation at some point.

Pretty much all we hear from them is that Saren is smart enough to "play" Shepard (which is easily disproved by Shepard afterwards)...

Woh, how is it disproved? Saren was ahead of or out-smarting Shepard every single step of the way. Saren successfully mounted an attack on the Citadel and was ready to take control by the time Shepard figured out, "Oh, hey, the Conduit leads to the Citadel..."

Shepard  won via developer fiat, not much else. Shepard is simply a better combatant than Saren, and because Shepard (again, via developer encouragement) floored it to the Conduit instead of taking 45 minutes to defeat every last Geth on the path (which is what's happened for the previous 90% of the game), Shepard arrived at a time to minimize damage and defeat Saren.

Annnd that leads us back to this conversation, where I'm saying post-attack analysis there is no way for any of them to maintain this "Saren played you Shepard" fantasy (even though they do).

Great. Could you link me to this post-attack analysis? I mean, in your head it sounds great, but I haven't seen it. When I look over the plot, I find a whole slew of points on the timeline where Saren had ample time and opportunity to mess with Shepard.

Not unless they think the legendary Spectre suddenly turned totally incompetent. No they don't believe that.  They still think Shepard is distracted by - you got it - the "play" Saren used called the "Reapers".

There is a great difference between being "totally incompetent" and "outsmarted."

Chess players are outsmarted all the time (one is outsmarted every game, in fact - occasionally two), yet even the worst Grandmasters wouldn't be called "totally incompetent."

Modifié par Scimal, 14 mars 2011 - 09:36 .