706 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarielle]

Ryzaki wrote...

Any game with character creator that makes you sit through an unskippable sequence without autosaving before the character creation is poor design.

Yeah, here's hoping that was just a demo thing.

[Ryzaki]

Icy Magebane wrote..
Not being able to save was terrible, especially considering the game freeze that occurred so many times when you'd finished that sequence and you were waiting for Shepard to wake up... still, it wasn't that bad of an idea because you knew what Shepard looked like under that helmet.  The game didn't just decide for you.

I never got the game freezing on me (thankfully) but by god that scene being unskippable is rage inducing. I don't mind it being unskippable the first time. But on 2nd, 3rd, and so on playthroughs it goes from awe to just plain annoying. 

And yeah Shep's face being covered made sense. Having random Hawke forced on me despite not looking legendary in any way is just...bleh. I could deal if he had a taller than usual rig, monsterously big muscles, and the whole shebang. But he doesn't. He just looks...bleh. 

[Saibh]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Yeah I did.  And I saw the big assed helmet Shepard was wearing to conceal his face.

I don't care what the marketing team says.  10 years is the present or very recent past, and not enough time to form any legends. 

To your second point, I don't need the internet to know what my neighbor looks like.  You'd think Hawke never went outdoors with all the inconsistencies...

Actually, they were white. You always see the back of their neck, and they are always white. You can also see their hair color and hair style. That's quite a bit.

Too bad. Their world, their rules. You don't get to decide what their creations think about their other creations. Regardless of whether he's a legend, he's still a famous figure barely anyone has seen before.

I don't know what my neighbors looks like. I live in the same apartment, but I've only met one of them. I could only give you a passive description. I know it's hard to understand, in this era of information, but Hawke would not have met most of the people in the city of Kirkwall. Most aren't going to ask "Hey, is your name Hawke? Can I memorize your face?" Most people who ask about him probably aren't going to ask for his appearance, anyway. And, as the story gets told over and over and information is going to get changed, get lost.

So most aren't going to know what he looks like. It's not particularly important anyway, since most people will never meet him.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 mars 2011 - 02:22 .

[Icy Magebane]

If Hawke was wearing some kind of Daedric Helmet (or in other words, a crazy looking demonic helmet covering his/her entire face), that would have been acceptable.

Whatever. Let's just hope that section is exactly like the demo and thus, fairly easy to skip.

[Ryzaki]

And of those most people not knowing what he looks like would include the woman trying to hunt him down?

No offense but that sounds ridculous. You don't go after someone without a basic description unless *no one* but a select secretive amount of people know what the guy looks like.  if this person is running around town someone would have a description of him. They may exaggerate it. But they certainly wouldn't make him look as average as Default Hawke if they were doing so. 

Hawke lived in Kirkwall. Talked to the people, went shopping, ran around doing favors for certain groups. He wasn't in a cloak and dagger with his face covered all the time ignoring everyone around him/he. He/she worked with a organization when he/she first arrived at kirkwall. And was a member of a noble house. People like that aren't invisible. He had family, friends, business associates. All of those people would know what he looked like. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 mars 2011 - 02:28 .

[Saibh]

Ryzaki wrote...

And of those most people not knowing what he looks like would include the woman trying to hunt him down?

No offense but that sounds ridculous. You don't go after someone without a basic description unless *no one* but a select secretive amount of people know what the guy looks like.

Hawke lived in Kirkwall. Talked to the people, went shopping, ran around doing favors for certain groups. He wasn't in a cloak and dagger.

Why not? For a myriad of reasons: maybe her boss told her "find Hawke", so she grabbed someone who knew him, pushed a knife in his face and told him to start talking. 

Who says she asked around for explicit information? She might not have asked what he looked like right away, but she could have in the next ten minutes, until Varric started lying his ass off.

Regardless, this is not my point. I don't think you're seeing Cassandra's vision of Hawke, I think you're seeing the public's. Cassandra might know what he looks like, but she also knows Varric is lying. You're hearing The Legend, not the truth.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 mars 2011 - 02:28 .

[Melness]

Ryzaki wrote...

And of those most people not knowing what he looks like would include the woman trying to hunt him down?

Varric: Then let me tell you what really happened. They were actually asians.

Cassandra: Bull****.

Varric: No really, they were.

Cassandra: So, the Champion's beard is a myth?

Varric: And you wonder why I began with the legend.

I get what Bioware is trying with an unreliable narrator but this I don't really like. Especially when so called 'legendary face' is one of the options.

Modifié par Melness, 03 mars 2011 - 02:29 .

[Icy Magebane]

Saibh wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Yeah I did.  And I saw the big assed helmet Shepard was wearing to conceal his face.

I don't care what the marketing team says.  10 years is the present or very recent past, and not enough time to form any legends. 

To your second point, I don't need the internet to know what my neighbor looks like.  You'd think Hawke never went outdoors with all the inconsistencies...

Actually, they were white. You always see the back of their neck, and they are always white. You can also see their hair color and hair style. That's quite a bit.

Too bad. Their world, their rules. You don't get to decide what their creations think about their other creations. Regardless of whether he's a legend, he's still a famous figure barely anyone has seen before.

I don't know what my neighbors looks like. I live in the same apartment, but I've only met one of them. I could only give you a passive description. I know it's hard to understand, in this era of information, but Hawke would not have met most of the people in the city of Kirkwall. Most aren't going to ask "Hey, is your name Hawke? Can I memorize your face?" Most people who ask about him probably aren't going to ask for his appearance, anyway. And, as the story gets told over and over and information is going to get changed, get lost.

So most aren't going to know what he looks like. It's not particularly important anyway, since most people will never meet him.

I tell you what.  We aren't going to agree on this, and that's fine.  But your opinions are not fact simply because you happen to agree with the design choice.  It is illogical and many people in addition to myself have clearly stated why.  You don't need to agree.

I must say, however, that this implication that I'm somehow tainted by the age of technology and cannot understand a world without computers is unjustified.  If you live in a city and you are a celebrity (read:  guy who kills bandits in the city and possibly fights templars), people are going to notice that.  You don't need e-mail or a web cam for people to witness what you are doing, and they aren't going to ignore the fact that some guy is hacking people to pieces or shooting lightning bolts in the alley outside their window.

I think YOU are the one who can't see past the internet, because you keep assuming that nobody knows what the hell is going on simply because they aren't typing details to one another on a computer.  That said, I disagree with your opinions and I'm just going to leave it at that.

Edit:  Actually, I might keep talking about this, but I need to go for a couple minutes.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 03 mars 2011 - 02:32 .

[Ryzaki]

Saibh wrote...
Why not? For a myriad of reasons: maybe her boss told her "find Hawke", so she grabbed someone who knew him, pushed a knife in his face and told him to start talking.

So you expect me to believe the Chantry one of the most powerful and influential groups in Thedas aren't going to know the basic description of a highly influential person? Yet somehow the Warden's likeness can go around Thedas in a mere number of weeks? 

Who says she asked around for explicit information? She might not have asked what he looked like right away, but she could have in the next ten minutes, until Varric started lying his ass off.

Plenty of people, shopkeepers, merchants, Hawke doesn't exist in a bubble. He isn't invisble he has family, business associates and the like. Those are who she would've went to. 

You think Hawke's neighbors wouldn't make it their business to know what he looked like? Or the Chantry? Or the people who let him get so far? (trying to avoid spoilers). Really? You think they wouldn't sell him out?

He's not in a vaccum. He's in a hotbed of political intrigue. During his rise to power someone would've taken notice (if only for the fact that he or his sister maybe an apostate). 

As for "the legend" if that's the case Cassandra would've called Varric out on his BS right away. Not wait until Flemeth showed up. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 mars 2011 - 02:33 .

[tmp7704]

Sarielle wrote...

One may argue that...but now I get the feeling you are arguing for the sake of arguing. If the opening cinematic/fight scene is going to make them quit and not ever pick it up again, then the game wasn't going to interest them anyways. Thus...you've still saved them some time. Rather considerate, really.

That's not really for the sake of arguing, but rather to point out what the designer hopes to achieve and the actual result can be easily two different things. And while from the player's point of view you may see quitting much faster as "considerate", i don't think it'd be viewed as favourably by the person whose intent was to make players quit later, not even sooner.

Imo, it really blows to get 10 or so hours in, keep thinking "well surely rogue gameplay gets better at some point..." and be forced to either stick with that character because you've invested that much time, or reroll and have to do that all over again.

Neither is that appealing. Speaking from a personal point of view here, THAT is what will make ME put a game down. I don't want to repeat content I've just done, but I don't want to keep playing the character I have.

I actually have an unfinished origins game because of this exact issue.

Which issue was it exactly, though -- the class not being fun early, or the fact of repeating content on another playthrough? I'm not really sure if the approach used by DA2 really helps with either aspect in practice -- if the gameplay at early level is boring then it won't get more exciting from just knowing that more fun is waiting "just" 20+ hours away; that's lots of boring hours to sit through. And getting five minutes of exploding darkspawn early obviously isn't going to remove the need to replay the content again if you want to go through the game with another class, either.

[Maugrim]

So how tall is Tom Cruise again? We have numerous people claiming anything from 5'4 to 5'10 a whole damn half foot in the internet age and with one of the most famous and photographed persons in the world.

In fact we should play through as several different legendary Hawkes, including one of the opposite gender and romancing a different LI from our chosen one!
/snark off

Yeah sorry but it's not unreasonable or even unlikely for the description of Hawke to vary wildly. Not saying you have to like it but it's not some crazy idea.

[slimgrin]

So pc creation comes after the exaggerated intro, is this correct?

[Melness]

makenzieshepard wrote...

So how tall is Tom Cruise again? We have numerous people claiming anything from 5'4 to 5'10 a whole damn half foot in the internet age and with one of the most famous and photographed persons in the world.

In fact we should play through as several different legendary Hawkes, including one of the opposite gender and romancing a different LI from our chosen one!
/snark off

Yeah sorry but it's not unreasonable or even unlikely for the description of Hawke to vary wildly. Not saying you have to like it but it's not some crazy idea.

Its not a crazy idea at all but not for this reason. Thedosians don't have plastic surgery.

I just think it was a tad bit unnecessary, but not necessarily bad.

[Clover Rider]

makenzieshepard wrote...

So how tall is Tom Cruise again? We have numerous people claiming anything from 5'4 to 5'10 a whole damn half foot in the internet age and with one of the most famous and photographed persons in the world.

In fact we should play through as several different legendary Hawkes, including one of the opposite gender and romancing a different LI from our chosen one!
/snark off

Yeah sorry but it's not unreasonable or even unlikely for the description of Hawke to vary wildly. Not saying you have to like it but it's not some crazy idea.

No one knows what anyone looks like for real in most history anyway=].

[Fenn_]

slimgrin wrote...

So pc creation comes after the exaggerated intro, is this correct?

yes 

[Ryzaki]

makenzieshepard wrote...

So how tall is Tom Cruise again? We have numerous people claiming anything from 5'4 to 5'10 a whole damn half foot in the internet age and with one of the most famous and photographed persons in the world.

In fact we should play through as several different legendary Hawkes, including one of the opposite gender and romancing a different LI from our chosen one!
/snark off

Yeah sorry but it's not unreasonable or even unlikely for the description of Hawke to vary wildly. Not saying you have to like it but it's not some crazy idea.

So do you think Tom Cruise is another race? You think he has blonde hair and green eyes? Does he have any ornate tattoos on his face? You think a member of the papparazi wouldn't know his basic features? 

Varying widely is fine but not for someone whose job it is to find him falling for it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 mars 2011 - 02:39 .

[Icy Magebane]

Saibh wrote...

I don't know what my neighbors looks like. I live in the same apartment, but I've only met one of them. I could only give you a passive description. I know it's hard to understand, in this era of information, but Hawke would not have met most of the people in the city of Kirkwall. Most aren't going to ask "Hey, is your name Hawke? Can I memorize your face?" Most people who ask about him probably aren't going to ask for his appearance, anyway. And, as the story gets told over and over and information is going to get changed, get lost.

So most aren't going to know what he looks like. It's not particularly important anyway, since most people will never meet him.

Unless you never go outdoors, or your neighbors don't, that is a flat out lie.  You know their race, hair color, whether or not they have facial tattoos, approximate height, and approximate age.  All those details are basic information that is misrepresented by the default Hawke model (asside from height, which cannot be changed).  If you see somebody even a few times during a month, you aren't just going to forget that information.

[Maugrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

So how tall is Tom Cruise again? We have numerous people claiming anything from 5'4 to 5'10 a whole damn half foot in the internet age and with one of the most famous and photographed persons in the world.

In fact we should play through as several different legendary Hawkes, including one of the opposite gender and romancing a different LI from our chosen one!
/snark off

Yeah sorry but it's not unreasonable or even unlikely for the description of Hawke to vary wildly. Not saying you have to like it but it's not some crazy idea.

So do you think TOm Cruise is another race? You think he has blonde hair and green eyes? 

Varying widely is fine but not for someone whose job it is to find him falling for it. 

You couldn't have missed the point any more if you were trying deliberetely to do so, which I suspect you were

Does Thedas have the internet?  Have Billions of people seen photorealistic representations of Hawke? On 90foot tall high definition screens?

No?

Alrighty then.  So it stands to reason they would have even greater variations in their story.

Bold:  You have to admit it would explain a lot.....

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 03 mars 2011 - 02:40 .

[Ryzaki]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

So how tall is Tom Cruise again? We have numerous people claiming anything from 5'4 to 5'10 a whole damn half foot in the internet age and with one of the most famous and photographed persons in the world.

In fact we should play through as several different legendary Hawkes, including one of the opposite gender and romancing a different LI from our chosen one!
/snark off

Yeah sorry but it's not unreasonable or even unlikely for the description of Hawke to vary wildly. Not saying you have to like it but it's not some crazy idea.

So do you think TOm Cruise is another race? You think he has blonde hair and green eyes? 

Varying widely is fine but not for someone whose job it is to find him falling for it. 

You couldn't have missed the point any more if you were trying deliberetely to do so, which I suspect you were

Does Thedas have the internet?  Have Billions of people seen photorealistic representations of Hawke? On 90foot tall high definition screens?

No?

Alrighty then.  So it stands to reason they would have even greater variations in their story.

Did you play DAO? Did you not notice everyone knows who you are because *gasps* They've seen your likeness being spread around? Now however would that have happened? [Those being the people hunting you down] 

Because drawings they don't exist yo! That's why we have no idea what some people may have looked like. (Sure they may have exaggerated certain features but that was for political gain and vanity. Hawke has no such reason and it's only been 10 years. 10 years isn't long enough for a legend to twist and morph till Hawke is unrecongnizable. The guy is still alive). 

Photorealistic isn't necessary for a basic grasp. All it would take is a skilled drawing. Which in DAO is how many people recongnized the Warden. Yet somehow Kirkwall lacks this...? 

I'm not trying to bust your chops but it doesn't make much sense. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 mars 2011 - 02:45 .

[Vicious]

so we will revert to Legendary Hawke EVERY time there is an 'exxagerated' sequence? Has this been confirmed?

[tmp7704]

Vicious wrote...

so we will revert to Legendary Hawke EVERY time there is an 'exxagerated' sequence? Has this been confirmed?

The "legendary" sequence only happens once per playthrough if i understand it right, at the beginning. From then on Varric tells what's supposed to be "true" version.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 mars 2011 - 02:44 .

[slimgrin]

What is Bioware's reasoning behind imposing their own vision into what is supposed to be a customizable character?

[Taleroth]

Ryzaki wrote...

Did you play DAO? Did you not notice everyone knows who you are because *gasps* They've seen your likeness being spread around? 

Because drawings they don't exist yo!

Photorealistic isn't necessary for a basic grasp. All it would take is a skilled drawing. Which in DAO is how many people recongnized the Warden. Yet somehow Kirkwall lacks this...? 

That's not how they recognized the Warden.  They recognized the Warden for no reason other than because it was faster to recognize him than have to introduce yourself in every conversation.

So when it was necessary for them to recognize the warden, it was handwaved.  Though there's still plenty of instances of people only recognizing the Warden because he's with someone else they've met (alistair) or not recognizing him at all (the entirety of Lothering if you avoid it, the Templar at the docks).  Or because they overheard a conversation (Lothering if it's brought up).

[Sarielle]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

One may argue that...but now I get the feeling you are arguing for the sake of arguing. If the opening cinematic/fight scene is going to make them quit and not ever pick it up again, then the game wasn't going to interest them anyways. Thus...you've still saved them some time. Rather considerate, really.

That's not really for the sake of arguing, but rather to point out what the designer hopes to achieve and the actual result can be easily two different things. And while from the player's point of view you may see quitting much faster as "considerate", i don't think it'd be viewed as favourably by the person whose intent was to make players quit later, not even sooner.

Imo, it really blows to get 10 or so hours in, keep thinking "well surely rogue gameplay gets better at some point..." and be forced to either stick with that character because you've invested that much time, or reroll and have to do that all over again.

Neither is that appealing. Speaking from a personal point of view here, THAT is what will make ME put a game down. I don't want to repeat content I've just done, but I don't want to keep playing the character I have.

I actually have an unfinished origins game because of this exact issue.

Which issue was it exactly, though -- the class not being fun early, or the fact of repeating content on another playthrough? I'm not really sure if the approach used by DA2 really helps with either aspect in practice -- if the gameplay at early level is boring then it won't get more exciting from just knowing that more fun is waiting "just" 20+ hours away; that's lots of boring hours to sit through. And getting five minutes of exploding darkspawn early obviously isn't going to remove the need to replay the content again if you want to go through the game with another class, either.

This is not a game that charges a subscription; sure, they'd rather you really enjoyed it, and played it multiple times (and buy the DLC, but that's hardly into subscription service numbers); but if you don't, well, they still have the box sale. And if you don't like the taste of the high-level stuff, you're hardly likely to like the low-level stuff even if they'd begun with the character creator and a slower buildup.

And my unfinished game is a result of the COMBINATION of those two things. Some classes bloom a little later; if you know up front how they're generally going to play once you have a few skills under your belt, you have a better idea if you want to create that archetype at all.

I don't mind replaying a game with a different archetype, different personality etc. I have more than the 2 DAO characters in my signature from that game. I still get something different out of it. I mind repeating it as the exact same character.

[Saibh]

Ryzaki wrote...

So you expect me to believe the Chantry one of the most powerful and influential groups in Thedas aren't going to know the basic description of a highly influential person? Yet somehow the Warden's likeness can go around Thedas in a mere number of weeks?

You completely ignored my point.

My point is, Cassandra as a person might not have the slightest idea what he looks like. If the first thing she does is grab Varric, then who's to say she wasn't about to ask? Varric knows Hawke explicitly, and will have probably a more accurate idea of what he looks like than her coworkers.

Once again, not my point.

Plenty of people, shopkeepers, merchants, Hawke doesn't exist in a bubble. He isn't invisble he has family, business associates and the like. Those are who she would've went to.

And? So what if those people know what he looks like? There are hundreds of thousands of people living in Kirkwall, I presume, and there's no reason for most of them to know what he looks like. More than that, Hawke is important to the world, not just Kirkwall. And Kirkwall has pretty insular citizens anyway.

I don't know what the mayor of my town of 5,000 looks like. 

You think Hawke's neighbors wouldn't make it their business to know what he looked like? Or the Chantry? Or the people who let him get so far? (trying to avoid spoilers). Really? You think they wouldn't sell him out?

So? Once again, completely not my point. No matter how famous he is, a proper means to spread accurate information on faces and whatnot doesn't exist.

As for "the legend" if that's the case Cassandra would've called Varric out on his BS right away. Not wait until Flemeth showed up.

For. The. Thousandth. Time. You are not seeing your character. Hawke's appearance is not important.

The "Legend" has no idea what he looks like. Varric isn't describing what Hawke explicitly looked like, you are simply seeing the perception of what he looks like in the public's eye. What is it exactly? Not important. Just strong and handsome.

Varric says outright "Is that not the story you've heard?". He's directly telling the version of what people think happened. Cassandra let him go on for a bit, but once it became clear that he was just repeating the folk version of it, she stopped him. What he looks like isn't important because, as I've said over and over and over and over and over and over, most people aren't going to KNOW what he looks like.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 mars 2011 - 02:46 .