706 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Taleroth wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Did you play DAO? Did you not notice everyone knows who you are because *gasps* They've seen your likeness being spread around? 

Because drawings they don't exist yo!

Photorealistic isn't necessary for a basic grasp. All it would take is a skilled drawing. Which in DAO is how many people recongnized the Warden. Yet somehow Kirkwall lacks this...? 

That's not how they recognized the Warden.  They recognized the Warden for no reason other than because it was faster to recognize him than have to introduce yourself in every conversation.

So when it was necessary for them to recognize the warden, it was handwaved.  Though there's still plenty of instances of people only recognizing the Warden because he's with someone else they've met (alistair) or not recognizing him at all (the entirety of Lothering if you avoid it, the Templar at the docks).  Or because they overheard a conversation (Lothering if it's brought up).

Actually that dude in Denerim tells you your likeness has been spread to the guards and "it did you no justice." The guy hunting you down for Loghain knows what you look like even if Alistair (for whatever reason) isn't in the party. 

Zevran had to know what you looked like before he ambushed you. I'll bother digging out more incidents from the toolset. 

[Ryzaki]

@Saibh: What exactly is your point? Why exactly does Cassandra not know what the Champion looks like? Why exactly does she fall for the folklore version so long? 

[Maugrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

So how tall is Tom Cruise again? We have numerous people claiming anything from 5'4 to 5'10 a whole damn half foot in the internet age and with one of the most famous and photographed persons in the world.

In fact we should play through as several different legendary Hawkes, including one of the opposite gender and romancing a different LI from our chosen one!
/snark off

Yeah sorry but it's not unreasonable or even unlikely for the description of Hawke to vary wildly. Not saying you have to like it but it's not some crazy idea.

So do you think TOm Cruise is another race? You think he has blonde hair and green eyes? 

Varying widely is fine but not for someone whose job it is to find him falling for it. 

You couldn't have missed the point any more if you were trying deliberetely to do so, which I suspect you were

Does Thedas have the internet?  Have Billions of people seen photorealistic representations of Hawke? On 90foot tall high definition screens?

No?

Alrighty then.  So it stands to reason they would have even greater variations in their story.

Did you play DAO? Did you not notice everyone knows who you are because *gasps* They've seen your likeness being spread around? 

Because pictures don't exist yo! 

Yes I'm sure it was the 8x10's my Human Noble/Dalish/Mage/Dwarven warden hand signed and not that fact that I was traveling round the country with a dwarf, qunari, elf assasin, orlesian born fereldan assasin/chantry sister, royal bastard while completing grey warden treaties that identified me above all these other things and more. Because everything said by an NPC is absolute fact, yo ho.

Sorry reflex action after riding pirates of the carribean

EDIT:

Ryzaki wrote...
 "it did you no justice."

*Gasp* An inaccurate likeness, say it isn't so! 

People don't like playing legendary Hawke, I get it but the it's not realistic argument is tired and just as wrong here as it is almost everywhere else/

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 03 mars 2011 - 02:54 .

[FearTheLiving]

It amazes me how many people are defending this decision when there is no real purpose of it.

[Saibh]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Saibh: What exactly is your point? Why exactly does Cassandra not know what the Champion looks like? Why exactly does she fall for the folklore version so long? 

Ryzaki, if you don't go back and read it thoroughly, I'll hunt you down and blow up your garden gnomes. Every single one of those questions I explained thoroughly.

[Melness]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Saibh: What exactly is your point? Why exactly does Cassandra not know what the Champion looks like? Why exactly does she fall for the folklore version so long? 

Can you prove that she fell for the legend or didn't know what the Champion looks like? Does Varric describe everything is excruciating detail, including the appearance of a known personage? Why can't Cassandra have simply let Varric go for a little while, as well as many other billions of possibilities?

[Taleroth]

Ryzaki wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Did you play DAO? Did you not notice everyone knows who you are because *gasps* They've seen your likeness being spread around? 

Because drawings they don't exist yo!

Photorealistic isn't necessary for a basic grasp. All it would take is a skilled drawing. Which in DAO is how many people recongnized the Warden. Yet somehow Kirkwall lacks this...? 

That's not how they recognized the Warden.  They recognized the Warden for no reason other than because it was faster to recognize him than have to introduce yourself in every conversation.

So when it was necessary for them to recognize the warden, it was handwaved.  Though there's still plenty of instances of people only recognizing the Warden because he's with someone else they've met (alistair) or not recognizing him at all (the entirety of Lothering if you avoid it, the Templar at the docks).  Or because they overheard a conversation (Lothering if it's brought up).

Actually that dude in Denerim tells you your likeness has been spread to the guards and "it did you no justice." The guy hunting you down for Loghain knows what you look like even if Alistair (for whatever reason) isn't in the party. 

Zevran had to know what you looked like before he ambushed you. I'll bother digging out more incidents from the toolset. 

Right, most of it was handwaved.  I didn't say nobody knew it.

That dude in Denerim pretty much confirms it.  "it did you no justice."  Yet he still recognized the Warden.  It's handwaving.

[Ryzaki]

Saibh wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So you expect me to believe the Chantry one of the most powerful and influential groups in Thedas aren't going to know the basic description of a highly influential person? Yet somehow the Warden's likeness can go around Thedas in a mere number of weeks?

You completely ignored my point.

My point is, Cassandra as a person might not have the slightest idea what he looks like. If the first thing she does is grab Varric, then who's to say she wasn't about to ask? Varric knows Hawke explicitly, and will have probably a more accurate idea of what he looks like than her coworkers.

Once again, not my point.

The woman is aseeker for the Chantry. What exactly is your point? She's looking for a guy her organization may have worked with (or was worked against by) and yet has no idea what he looks like? Someone who may have helped destroy it? She's going to ask one of his friends (possibly) for an accurate description so she could hunt him down? 

And? So what if those people know what he looks like? There are hundreds of thousands of people living in Kirkwall, I presume, and there's no reason for most of them to know what he looks like. More than that, Hawke is important to the world, not just Kirkwall. And Kirkwall has pretty insular citizens anyway.I don't know what the mayor of my town of 5,000 looks like. 

That's..pretty bad.I know what my mayor looks like. Do you guys not elect them or someting? 

Anyways I think guy who shakes the political field is more of accord with a president or the leader of a rebel army than just a mayor. 

So? Once again, completely not my point. No matter how famous he is, a proper means to spread accurate information on faces and whatnot doesn't exist.

Yes of course. That's why why no one could identify the Warden despite never seeing him/her before. 

For. The. Thousandth. Time. You are not seeing your character. Hawke's appearance is not important. The "Legend" has no idea what he looks like. Varric isn't describing what Hawke explicitly looked like, you are simply seeing the perception of what he looks like in the public's eye. What is it exactly? Not important. Just strong and handsome. 

Edit: Then why is a Seeker for the Chantry who recognizes a tale she's heard time and time again not saying "BS" earlier? 

Varric says outright "Is that not the story you've heard?". He's directly telling the version of what people think happened. Cassandra let him go on for a bit, but once it became clear that he was just repeating the folk version of it, she stopped him. What he looks like isn't important because, as I've said over and over and over and over and over and over, most people aren't going to KNOW what he looks like.

And yet she only stops him once she thinks he's full of BS because of being saved by Flemeth she even does it again during the actual version of them being saved by Flemeth. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[Saibh]

FearTheLiving wrote...

It amazes me how many people are defending this decision when there is no real purpose of it.

"Because it sets the stage for The Legend--the remote idea of the player. The overpowered badass, shrouded in ambiguity and exaggerated bard's tales. This, to me, is simply another emphasis on the exaggerated prologue, that is already rife with lies and misinformation.

I am not playing my character, so it is not an affront to my character.

So, there we go. It enhances my playthrough experience by emphasizing the framed narrative, an aspect of the story and storytelling."

There.

A purpose.

One that makes utter sense to me, and that--steel yourself--I like.

[Ryzaki]

Taleroth wrote...

Right, most of it was handwaved.  I didn't say nobody knew it.

That dude in Denerim pretty much confirms it.  "it did you no justice."  Yet he still recognized the Warden.  It's handwaving.

The handwave was still an explanation. And not to mention there are these things called wanted posters. They existed in the old days. People were fairly accurate in them. 

I'm just finding it ridculous that people have drawings of the Warden but not someone who may have completely turned Kirkwall's political landscape on it's head. 

[tmp7704]

Sarielle wrote...

This is not a game that charges a subscription; sure, they'd rather you really enjoyed it, and played it multiple times (and buy the DLC, but that's hardly into subscription service numbers); but if you don't, well, they still have the box sale.

Call me an idealist but i'd think that the game designer cares about bit more than whether they made a box sale or not. If simply because designing games is supposed to be their job and something they're (hopefully) good at... so if a design they come up with to address an issue backfires and makes things worse rather than help...  well, that alone could possibly sting just a little. 

I don't mind replaying a game with a different archetype, different personality etc. I have more than the 2 DAO characters in my signature from that game. I still get something different out of it. I mind repeating it as the exact same character.

You lost me a bit here. If you give up on a playthrough because the class wasn't fun and play entirely different class from the start, how would you wind up with this another playthrough being the exact same character?

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 mars 2011 - 02:56 .

[Icy Magebane]

Saibh wrote...

FearTheLiving wrote...

It amazes me how many people are defending this decision when there is no real purpose of it.

"Because it sets the stage for The Legend--the remote idea of the player. The overpowered badass, shrouded in ambiguity and exaggerated bard's tales. This, to me, is simply another emphasis on the exaggerated prologue, that is already rife with lies and misinformation.

I am not playing my character, so it is not an affront to my character.

So, there we go. It enhances my playthrough experience by emphasizing the framed narrative, an aspect of the story and storytelling."

There.

A purpose.

One that makes utter sense to me, and that--steel yourself--I like.

So let me take a wild guess... you wanted to be an elf, they wouldn't let you, and now you will claim that whatever they do is fine because Hawke isn't "yours."

[Ryzaki]

Saibh wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Saibh: What exactly is your point? Why exactly does Cassandra not know what the Champion looks like? Why exactly does she fall for the folklore version so long? 

Ryzaki, if you don't go back and read it thoroughly, I'll hunt you down and blow up your garden gnomes. Every single one of those questions I explained thoroughly.

No actually you didn't. It makes as much sense for Cassandra not to know what Hawke looks like than it would've Zevran not known what the Warden looked like. 

[FearTheLiving]

Saibh wrote...

FearTheLiving wrote...

It amazes me how many people are defending this decision when there is no real purpose of it.

"Because it sets the stage for The Legend--the remote idea of the player. The overpowered badass, shrouded in ambiguity and exaggerated bard's tales. This, to me, is simply another emphasis on the exaggerated prologue, that is already rife with lies and misinformation.

I am not playing my character, so it is not an affront to my character.

So, there we go. It enhances my playthrough experience by emphasizing the framed narrative, an aspect of the story and storytelling."

There.

A purpose.

One that makes utter sense to me, and that--steel yourself--I like.

So they couldn't make you a badass without turning you into default Hawke? Like I said before they should have at least just pulled a ME2 and but armor/hoods over your face. It's just plain stupid it says we aren't playing our Hawke but to us there is only one Hawke. Like others have said why is it that your companions are taking down in great detail while you the "champion" are vaugly remembered. Anyways I'm not going to get into another dicussion over it just hope Bioware knows not to pull more crap like this in the future.

[Saibh]

Ryzaki wrote...

THe woman is aseeker for the Chantry. What exactly is your point? She's looking for a guy her organization may have worked with (or was worked against by) and yet has no idea what he looks like?

How long have they been looking for him?

Where did Cassandra come from?

Did she pick up Varric first?

Once more, if her boss simply said "You, find the Champion", and the first thought she had was to get one of his known associate's to describe him and help her locate him, then does it matter if she doesn't know what he looks like? Why would she? She's going to find out what he looks like. Even if she doesn't know then.

For the last time, this isn't my point. She could have a magical etching of his face perfectly. I don't care.

That's..pretty bad.I know what my mayor looks like. Do you guys not elect them or someting? 

Anyways I think guy who shakes the political field is more of accord with a president or the leader of a rebel army than just a mayor.

Most people probably don't know what he looks like. Why? Because he's not in the media often, except newspapers, and they don't picture him. So, despite him regularly effecting my life, and despite living in an era where I have every way to figure out his appearance, I still don't know. Why? Because, when I discuss his policies over breakfast, I don't go "hey what does that guy look like?"

Yes of course. That's why why no one could identify the Warden despite never seeing him/her before.

How many people identify the Warden? Compared to how many who don't know him?

And, again, you're seeing the Legend. I don't give a rat's ass how many merchants he's spoken to, he doesn't leave Kirkwall, so most people aren't going to know what he looks like.

If that's the case why is Hawke not masked? Why is his/her face shown?

Because people see you as handsome and strong. You need to vaguely fit that, but, it's not 'always wears a helmet'.

Why is Bethany so overly endowed

Varric specifically mentioned it.

ad why is Cassandra swallowing the BS?

Because she let him go on with it for a few minutes, that's why. Swallowing it? Not hardly. In real life, he could have started speaking for three minutes before she interrupted him.

And yet she only stops him once she thinks he's full of BS because of being saved by Flemeth she even does it again during the actual version of them being saved by Flemeth.

Or maybe she stops him once she's fed up and sick of hearing "and the great-busted Bethany blew up five darkspawn at once with powerful waves of magic!" If this is only happening over a few minutes, then she allows him to continue for a few minutes before interruption.

[tmp7704]

makenzieshepard wrote...

People don't like playing legendary Hawke, I get it but the it's not realistic argument is tired and just as wrong here as it is almost everywhere else/

It really isn't when Cassandra at the same time has a book with fairly accurate depictions of all Hawke's companions (including Hawke's sibling)  If it's realistic that no one really knows what a public figure looks like, it's unrealistic to be able to get such accurate information on whole group of way less important people. And vice versa.

You can explain one or the other, but not really both combined.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 mars 2011 - 03:05 .

[Punahedan]

I'm mostly bothered that I have to play through the opening EVERY TIME I want to start a new character. What if I just want to mess around with the CC? It bugged me in ME2, and it bugs me here. It's tedious.

The Legendary Hawke does not bother me all that much. In mythology and legends, people will always make the hero, unless they are specified as a foreigner for story purposes, look like the idealized version of a local image. In Arthurian legends, you don't have black Guineveres, and if she happened to actually exist, and she was actually black or four feet tall or had a shaved head, we would never know from the legend. Locally, Legendary!Hawke is what the people expect to see. If it happens to match (you choose the standard Hawke to play with), great! If not... your noogies, they are tough.

[slimgrin]

Saibh wrote...

FearTheLiving wrote...

It amazes me how many people are defending this decision when there is no real purpose of it.

"Because it sets the stage for The Legend--the remote idea of the player. The overpowered badass, shrouded in ambiguity and exaggerated bard's tales. This, to me, is simply another emphasis on the exaggerated prologue, that is already rife with lies and misinformation.

How can that misinformatiuon possibly be consistent for every player? Cassandra is telling a tale; its up to the player to visualize ( in this case, customize ) THEIR vison of what she is describing. 

In the end, I guess I'm not in the least surprised by this. 

[Saibh]

FearTheLiving wrote...

So they couldn't make you a badass without turning you into default Hawke? Like I said before they should have at least just pulled a ME2 and but armor/hoods over your face. It's just plain stupid it says we aren't playing our Hawke but to us there is only one Hawke. Like others have said why is it that your companions are taking down in great detail while you the "champion" are vaugly remembered. Anyways I'm not going to get into another dicussion over it just hope Bioware knows not to pull more crap like this in the future.

They're not making you badass, they're showing the public's perception of you.

You'll notice you can't be an archer, a sword and board, or a healing mage. You'll notice you can't select your name. That's because none of that is important to the public eye. Just how tough their idea of you is. Their idea of you is not a weaselly-looking bald man running in fear of his life.

Maybe Cassandra knows exactly what you look like. The public doesn't. That's a Chantry book.

Icy Magebane wrote...

So let me take a wild guess... you wanted to be an elf, they wouldn't let you, and now you will claim that whatever they do is fine because Hawke isn't "yours."

Uh. No. Not even remotely, thanks for being snide.

I am not playing "my" character in that opening sequence, I am playing Thedas' idea of my character.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 mars 2011 - 03:06 .

[Saibh]

slimgrin wrote...

How can that misinformatiuon possibly be consistent for every player? Cassandra is telling a tale; its up to the player to visualize ( in this case, customize ) THEIR vison of what she is describing. 

In the end, I guess I'm not in the least surprised by this.

Because BioWare isn't going to create millions of different strong and handsome Hawke's so people don't wet themselves.

You understand the idea. They couldn't have had the words "THIS MAN IS STRONG AND HANDSOME" floating where you could have been. They had to pick a face.

[Sarielle]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

This is not a game that charges a subscription; sure, they'd rather you really enjoyed it, and played it multiple times (and buy the DLC, but that's hardly into subscription service numbers); but if you don't, well, they still have the box sale.

Call me an idealist but i'd think that the game designer cares about bit more than whether they made a box sale or not. If simply because designing games is supposed to be their job and something they're (hopefully) good at... so if a design they come up with to address an issue backfires and makes things worse rather than help...  well, that alone could possibly sting just a little. 

I don't mind replaying a game with a different archetype, different personality etc. I have more than the 2 DAO characters in my signature from that game. I still get something different out of it. I mind repeating it as the exact same character.

You lost me a bit here. If you give up on a playthrough because the class wasn't fun and play entirely different class from the start, how would you wind up with this another playthrough being the exact same character?

I'm sure Bioware would prefer that we didn't not play their game after we bought it. I'm saying that putting a taste of how a class operates at slightly higher levels is probably not a bad idea, because if someone doesn't like that at all, they're not going to finish the game even had it started with character creation instead.

As for the other, I can see how I didn't word that very well I'm saying once I've built up a concept for, I dunno, this dwarf rogue, I may enjoy the background and personality I've created, but not the playstyle. By putting a taste of that up front, if I hate the way a rogue plays I'm just not going to roll a rogue period, and save myself the frustration/disappointment later on.

I hope that makes more sense

[Ryzaki]

Saibh wrote...
How long have they been looking for him?

Where did Cassandra come from?

Did she pick up Varric first?

Once more, if her boss simply said "You, find the Champion", and the first thought she had was to get one of his known associate's to describe him and help her locate him, then does it matter if she doesn't know what he looks like? Why would she? She's going to find out what he looks like. Even if she doesn't know then.

Yes because that's exactly what you do when you want someone to find someone effectively. You tell them no info, no nothing, even if said guy has been actively working agasint/with you for a undisclosed amount of time. Because we all know no one knew what anyone far away looked like in the old days. 

For the last time, this isn't my point. She could have a magical etching of his face perfectly. I don't care.

You don't care big whoop. That doesn't stop it from not making any sense. 

Most people probably don't know what he looks like. Why? Because he's not in the media often, except newspapers, and they don't picture him. So, despite him regularly effecting my life, and despite living in an era where I have every way to figure out his appearance, I still don't know. Why? Because, when I discuss his policies over breakfast, I don't go "hey what does that guy look like?"

Most people =/= all. So if some people know what he looks like that's enough for Cassandra to know what he looks like and that Varric's spewing BS. 

How many people identify the Warden? Compared to how many who don't know him?And, again, you're seeing the Legend. I don't give a rat's ass how many merchants he's spoken to, he doesn't leave Kirkwall, so most people aren't going to know what he looks like.

And how many of those people who can't identify the Warden are looking for him/her to help them? 

Because people see you as handsome and strong. You need to vaguely fit that, but, it's not 'always wears a helmet'. 

I edited that out because it made no sense

Because she let him go on with it for a few minutes, that's why. Swallowing it? Not hardly. In real life, he could have started speaking for three minutes before she interrupted him.

Yes because someone who is desperate is going to let someone lie to them on and on before finally getting fed up with the dragon bit. Ignoring everything and anything else. 

Or maybe she stops him once she's fed up and sick of hearing "and the great-busted Bethany blew up five darkspawn at once with powerful waves of magic!" If this is only happening over a few minutes, then she allows him to continue for a few minutes before interruption.

So I'm supposed to believe someone trying to hunt Hawke down has time to sit on her toes and let Varric spew nonsense after nonsense? 

[TheRealJayDee]

Saibh wrote...

For. The. Thousandth. Time. You are not seeing your character. Hawke's appearance is not important.

The "Legend" has no idea what he looks like. Varric isn't describing what Hawke explicitly looked like, you are simply seeing the perception of what he looks like in the public's eye. What is it exactly? Not important. Just strong and handsome.

Varric says outright "Is that not the story you've heard?". He's directly telling the version of what people think happened. Cassandra let him go on for a bit, but once it became clear that he was just repeating the folk version of it, she stopped him. What he looks like isn't important because, as I've said over and over and over and over and over and over, most people aren't going to KNOW what he looks like.

For. The. Thousandth. Time. This maketh no goddamn sense! Hawke is a living legend. His tale hasn't been passed on for centuries or even decades, his tale happened during most likely during the last decade. His actions directly influenced recent events. Big, important events. He was roaming a large principality for a decade, interacting with about every social class, clashing/siding with some of the major political players, becoming a goddamn legend.

Besides, if Hawke's appearance isn't important anyway, just give me my Hawke!

[Emzamination]

The only problem with legendary hawke is if we change the facial structure of the character but I guess the Dwarf was lieing so I guess his ideas of how hawke looked could be a lie.