706 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Saibh wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So Cassandra's just going to stand there and let Varric lie to her from the jump? Despite the intimidating way he was dragged in? Alrighty then there's no resolving this. Because we all know you're dragged into a inquisition, your questioner gives you freedom to lie without being called on it til some time later despite demanding you start telling her everything. Yup. Totally.

Well, Cassandra's certainly willing to talk to him for ten minutes and explain the situation.

As I've iterated so many times, he doesn't need to actually describe his appearance. If you're seeing the Legend, you're seeing the Legendary version. He doesn't need to say "And this is the Public Domain version of Hawke." But, since you're being told the Legend, the game shows you what a live-action adaptation of the Legend would look like.

Except of course if Varric doesn't bother to describe Hawke Cassandra would fill in the blanks. Including what she should know of Hawke's description. Nothing would change except for the face. We aren't hearing the public's version. We're hearing what Varric is telling Cassandra. Either he describes Hawke or she fills in the blanks. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 mars 2011 - 03:40 .

[Fenn_]

Ryzaki wrote...

Fenn wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So Cassandra's just going to stand there and let Varric lie to her from the jump? Despite the intimidating way he was dragged in? Alrighty then there's no resolving this. Because we all know you're dragged into a inquisition, your questioner gives you freedom to lie without being called on it til some time later despite demanding you start telling her everything. Yup. Totally. 

To be fair she doesen't allow him to lie for long.

True but to me the fact that she calls BS after he's described Carver and Hawke (who may not look anything like she was told), after they've blown up hordes of darkspawn and were saved by Flemeth is ugh. It clashes so badly with the rest of the inquistion scene to me. The knife throgh the book thing and the "Start talking dwarf." made me think Varric was in deep s***. Her later actions just made me go. "Meh." 

I'm not very familer with interigation but I think she is trying to be  manipulative and is both the good cop and bad cop.

[Punahedan]

slimgrin wrote...

You seem to be arguing here for a fixed pc.

...What? Where are you getting that? 

The argument is that the public perceives Hawke in a way the culture deems appropriate for someone that becomes an all-powerful leader that can collapse a continent's culture and politics. We get a sample of what the public thinks. Then we backtrack and say, "This is what actually happened." We are playing what actually happened.

We don't know (At least, I don't think we do) during what point Cassandra actually interrupts the story. We don't know when Varrick actually describes, or if he describes Hawke at all. He could be piling on all the whacky details at once - blue eyes and dragon and SUPER POWERS. Or he's focusing only on the story and we are getting the image the public sees. We're playing through it, we're not going through a word-by-word retelling my Varrick.

[Ryzaki]

Fenn wrote...
I'm not very familer with interigation but I think she is trying to be  manipulative and is both the good cop and bad cop.

'

Which felt flat to me. Sure her "Would you?" was sweet and all but she was such a badass not 2 minutes before! That's ridculous. It felt jarring and unnecessary. 

She should've let some else play bad cop. 

[slimgrin]

I dunno, this scenario seems an awful lot like an author stopping mid-sentence in his fiction to say "howdy reader! This is what I'd really like you to think."

Modifié par slimgrin, 03 mars 2011 - 03:44 .

[Taleroth]

Ryzaki wrote...

True but to me the fact that she calls BS after he's described Carver and Hawke (who may not look anything like she was told), after they've blown up hordes of darkspawn and were saved by Flemeth is ugh. It clashes so badly with the rest of the inquistion scene to me. The knife throgh the book thing and the "Start talking dwarf." made me think Varric was in deep s***. Her later actions just made me go. "Meh." 

She does go from threatening badass to somber pretty quickly.

I actually like the more human Cassandra, but I still got whiplash.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 mars 2011 - 03:40 .

[tmp7704]

Fenn wrote...

I'm not very familer with interigation but I think she is trying to be  manipulative and is both the good cop and bad cop.

She's just succumbing to the power of chest hair. Can't blame her.

[Fenn_]

Ryzaki wrote...

Fenn wrote...
I'm not very familer with interigation but I think she is trying to be  manipulative and is both the good cop and bad cop.

'

Which felt flat to me. Sure her "Would you?" was sweet and all but she was such a badass not 2 minutes before! That's ridculous. It felt jarring and unnecessary. 

She should've let some else play bad cop. 

I agree with you on that.

[Melness]

Ryzaki wrote...

Fenn wrote...
I'm not very familer with interigation but I think she is trying to be  manipulative and is both the good cop and bad cop.

'

Which felt flat to me. Sure her "Would you?" was sweet and all but she was such a badass not 2 minutes before! That's ridculous. It felt jarring and unnecessary. 

She should've let some else play bad cop. 

I think that 'Would you?' showed the sort of desperation chantrists must be feeling right now. Especially since it came after the 'Do you know whats at stake here?'

[Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens]

lol BDF is pathetic.

Like, have some sort of personal opinon, jeebus! It's like some of you are mindless robots created to promote Bioware games.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter that you have to play as legendary Hawke, but given the fact that fans are used to playing Dragon Age with a character they've personalized, it makes sense that having to play as "the Hawke that's obviously more awesome than the one you created" would be annoying for people. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't make any frakking sense...

[Saibh]

Ryzaki wrote...

Except of course if Varric doesn't bother to describe Hawke Cassandra would fill in the blanks. Including what she should know of Hawke's description. Nothing would change except for the face.

Not if you're seeing the public's idea of the Legend: strong and handsome but the appearance is otherwise unimportant. BioWare simply selected one for you to fill in the blanks. He's white because people imagine Fereldans to be white. He has a beard because that's virile, and often a sign of wisdom and strength. He has a strong nose and clear eyes. Does the public explicitly imagine all of these things in some sort of hive mind? No. But all of it fits in with the perception of a person they've never seen. BioWare has to choose one, and that's what they chose. Can you look like that? Sure. Why not.

If it were a live action movie, that's what you'd see because that's what people think of.

Do you think Cassandra explicitly imagines you running around in circles for an hour, your idle animations, or any other sort of unfilled part of the story?

You are not seeing Cassandra's idea. You are seeing the public perception, given a particular face because you aren't going to see "IMAGINE FACE HERE" instead of an actual face.

[Ziggeh]

Saibh wrote...

FearTheLiving wrote...

W/E I'm done have fun making excuses for a stupid idea.

One that you have trouble comprehending is not stupid.

I'm a bit confused by it myself. Not about how it works as part of the false story, that makes sense (and I'm a bit confused about peoples confusion), but I don't think it's needed to sell the fictional nature of the intro, yet it is something of an inconvenience. I'm suspicious that there's some other motive. I just have no idea what that would be.

[Ryzaki]

Melness wrote...
I think that 'Would you?' showed the sort of desperation chantrists must be feeling right now. Especially since it came after the 'Do you know whats at stake here?'

Yeah but it felt jarring after the badassery she displayed. She presumbly kidnapps (or arrests) Varric drags him into an interrogation room, threatens him and then when he won't tell her the truth instead of more threats she pulls out the puppy dog eyes and the sad voice. 

...One would think she would've done that to start with. It's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar and all that.

[GreyVsGray]

She's on the verge of losing a lot of her co-workers and friends, is trying to curb a WW, and has a short and hairy dwarf as her only lead.

Her voice crack seems really justified.

[Bryy_Miller]

Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens wrote...

lol BDF is pathetic.

Like, have some sort of personal opinon, jeebus! It's like some of you are mindless robots created to promote Bioware games.

I was going to stay out of this, but this just irks me. How do you know that Saibh or anyone else don't, you know, actually believe what they are writing? "You're blindly defending X" is a lame cop-out used to trivilalize the other person's opinion. 

[Naitaka]

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

You seem to be arguing here for a fixed pc.

...What? Where are you getting that? 

The argument is that the public perceives Hawke in a way the culture deems appropriate for someone that becomes an all-powerful leader that can collapse a continent's culture and politics. We get a sample of what the public thinks. Then we backtrack and say, "This is what actually happened." We are playing what actually happened.

We don't know (At least, I don't think we do) during what point Cassandra actually interrupts the story. We don't know when Varrick actually describes, or if he describes Hawke at all. He could be piling on all the whacky details at once - blue eyes and dragon and SUPER POWERS. Or he's focusing only on the story and we are getting the image the public sees. We're playing through it, we're not going through a word-by-word retelling my Varrick.

Well I've said it before, if the default Hawke pops up for every consequent "legend" section, then I'll admit that I'm wrong and Bioware actually care about consistency not just "MUST MAKE AWESOME THINGS HAPPEN BEFORE THEY GET BORED!!!" Although that would probably make some people even more pissed about the situation.

Modifié par Naitaka, 03 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[Taleroth]

Ryzaki wrote...

Melness wrote...
I think that 'Would you?' showed the sort of desperation chantrists must be feeling right now. Especially since it came after the 'Do you know whats at stake here?'

Yeah but it felt jarring after the badassery she displayed. She presumbly kidnapps (or arrests) Varric drags him into an interrogation room, threatens him and then when he won't tell her the truth instead of more threats she pulls out the puppy dog eyes and the sad voice. 

...One would think she would've done that to start with. It's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar and all that.

The game definitely would have started better with a striptease.  No argument here.

[slimgrin]

Ziggeh wrote...

Saibh wrote...

FearTheLiving wrote...

W/E I'm done have fun making excuses for a stupid idea.

One that you have trouble comprehending is not stupid.

I'm a bit confused by it myself. Not about how it works as part of the false story, that makes sense (and I'm a bit confused about peoples confusion), but I don't think it's needed to sell the fictional nature of the intro, yet it is something of an inconvenience. I'm suspicious that there's some other motive. I just have no idea what that would be.

My first hunch was brand recognition, but that's far fetched. Maybe it's gameplay related, a symptom of a shortcut taken by the dev team. No matter what, the biggest issue is that it's an inconvenience to the player. It was in ME2, and it is here.

Modifié par slimgrin, 03 mars 2011 - 03:49 .

[tmp7704]

Ziggeh wrote...

I'm suspicious that there's some other motive. I just have no idea what that would be.

The motive was simply to allow player immediately start exploding darkspawn, without having to play with character creator slider first. That's as result of gathered metrics which showed many people gave up on playing DAO just after couple hours or so.

That's what the lead designer said in interview on this subject, anyway.

[Ryzaki]

Saibh wrote...
Not if you're seeing the public's idea of the Legend: strong and handsome but the appearance is otherwise unimportant. BioWare simply selected one for you to fill in the blanks. He's white because people imagine Fereldans to be white. He has a beard because that's virile, and often a sign of wisdom and strength. He has a strong nose and clear eyes. Does the public explicitly imagine all of these things in some sort of hive mind? No. But all of it fits in with the perception of a person they've never seen. BioWare has to choose one, and that's what they chose. Can you look like that? Sure. Why not.

Except of course we're not seeing the public's idea. We're hearing Varric and Cassandra talk to each other. Either Varric's lying and Cassandra's eating it up. Or the character's faces should be hidden. Them being shown makes no sense. There is no public. There is no random man speaking to a crowd. It's someone who was with the champion, talking to an interrogator. 

And lest not forget the Champion is described perfectly if you choose default Hawke.

If it were a live action movie, that's what you'd see because that's what people think of.

No I'd see what I'd see because that's what the director thought of. No matter how ridculous it looks. *looks at DBZ movie and shakes head* 

Do you think Cassandra explicitly imagines you running around in circles for an hour, your idle animations, or any other sort of unfilled part of the story? 

You are not seeing Cassandra's idea. You are seeing the public perception, given a particular face because you aren't going to see "IMAGINE FACE HERE" instead of an actual face.

Considering the fact that you know that's not physical description and often not during exaggeration sequences it's pobably glossed over. However if you're trying to find someone it's sort of handy to know what they look like. Just saying 

There is no public. There is only Varric and Cassandra. We are seeing one of their descriptions of Hawke. If the whole public excue wanted to fly this should be a group of peasants talking excitedly about Hawke's legend not a seeker and his friend/rival discussing him so that the seeker could find him.  

[FearTheLiving]

I have to admit once I saw "There is no public.." I yelled out only Zuul.

[Punahedan]

Naitaka wrote...

Well I've said it before, if the default Hawke pops up for every consequent "legend" section, then I'll admit that I'm wrong and Bioware actually care about consistency not just "MUST MAKE AWESOME THINGS HAPPEN BEFORE THEY GET BORED!!!" Although that would probably make some people even more pissed about the situation.

That's another thing - we really need to wait and see because a lot of the motives and reasonings are still really vague and unspecified. Jumping the gun now is silly.

Ryzaki wrote...

Considering the fact that you know that's
not physical description and often not during exaggeration sequences
it's pobably glossed over. However if you're trying to find someone it's
sort of handy to know what they look like. Just saying 

There is no public. There
is only Varric and Cassandra. We are seeing one of their descriptions
of Hawke. If the whole public excue wanted to fly this should be a group
of peasants talking excitedly about Hawke's legend not a seeker and his
friend/rival discussing him so that the seeker could find him.  

Or we could be looking for the history of decisions a person has made to try and see where they would go next and where they might be found now.

There is a public. Varrick is telling the story the public cheers about. That's why Cassandra gets frustrated. Because she doesn't want the Bard's tale of how the Amazing Hawke slaughtered the Dorkspawn single-handedly. She wants to hear about Hawke. Your Hawke. The dude that has to leave his village to evil creatures from below the ground and somehow get his family out of danger.

[Ryzaki]

So Varric only lies about Hawke's appearence if you're not playing default? Because you know that can be the PC's Hawke he describes in looks. Perfectly. Down to the eyecolor.

And yet somehow Varric can only recall Hawke's looks if you're playing default? 

As for the Legend once again: Cassandra wouldn't be completely ignorant of how Hawke looks. I doubt she would accept Varric describing Hawke completely differently from what she heard and then letting him go to Flemeth and then she calls out bs.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 mars 2011 - 03:59 .

[Saibh]

Ryzaki wrote...

Except of course we're not seeing the public's idea.

Says who, you?

Varric is telling the Legend, and you are seeing the Legend. So what if it occurs outside of Cassandra's head? If he doesn't explicitly explain what he looks like, the idea of him fills the blank.

And lest not forget the Champion is described perfectly if you choose default Hawke.

I already said that BioWare filled in something similar to what the public would think of, and you have the option to play as that. Pretend you have the option to play as any face in the world

Considering the fact that you know that's not physical description and often not during exaggeration sequences it's pobably glossed over. However if you're trying to find someone it's sort of handy to know what they look like. Just saying 

There is no public. There is only Varric and Cassandra. We are seeing one of their descriptions of Hawke. If the whole public excue wanted to fly this should be a group of peasants talking excitedly about Hawke's legend not a seeker and his friend/rival discussing him so that the seeker could find him. 

The only people insisting that the retelling has to be only what Varric and Cassandra imagine is you. It really isn't that hard to think "I'm seeing the oft-repeated version (with perhaps a few embellishments) of the tale, not the real thing". Cassandra is being told the tale, therefore she is imagining the folklore version for a few minutes, before interrupting him and demanding he stop lying.

We've been told in previews a hundred times that the exaggerated part is the ultimate badass that people think of when they think of Hawke, not what really happens.

My argument is that the exaggerated legend extends to his face, the one they've never seen.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 mars 2011 - 03:59 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Ryzaki wrote...

And lest not forget the Champion is described perfectly if you choose default Hawke.

This fact alone destroys about every attempt to defend this irritating choice.