706 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

Naitaka wrote...

If every consequent "Legend" sequence of Varric's story uses the default Hawke appearance, then I'll concede to the popular image argument. Before that happens though, forgive me if I rather take Bioware's words on why they did it instead of the justification people came up with on their own.

I love Bioware too,  but, I don't BAAAAAAAAAAAA that hard.

Baa, you get it?

[upsettingshorts]

Naitaka wrote...

If every consequent "Legend" sequence of Varric's story uses the default Hawke appearance, then I'll concede to the popular image argument.

Pay attention to what Varric says.

"Isn't that what you've already heard?"

The exaggerated part is him just rehashing the same old tired, boring, inaccurate legend.  And Cassandra isn't interested.  He then establishes his actual appearance (whether we change it or not) and that'll be that.  If he exaggerates anything else it wouldn't make sense for him to alter Hawke's appearance to Cassandra again because that wouldn literally mean Varric says something to Cass like, "Oh, and Hawke changed back to his inaccurate legendary appearance again for this part."  It's all really rather easy to understand if you focus on the fact it is a framed narrative.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 mars 2011 - 08:33 .

[blothulfur]

Oh makers holy trousers we're not gonna be punished for starting a new character like in ME2 again are we, bloody hell what have we ever done to bioware (bar the endless nitpicking-but not even that deserves the ME2 forced playthrough torture).

Bloody sadists.

[Saibh]

Jzadek72 wrote...

madsabroo wrote...

There are these things and we call them bards.

Difference is, William Wallace looked like Mel Gibson because they needed an actor to play him. I don't see why Hawke would be remembered in story as a brunette, if, say, she was actually blonde.

Yes, but they chose blue-eyed, clean-shaven, handsome Mel Gibson to play him.




The "legend" of Hawke is of a handsome, powerful looking man, or a beautiful, tough looking woman. The actual appearance isn't really important, only that he or she convey these things.

If you choose to make your Hawke a balding, pig-faced mutant, I doubt people will honestly think of that.

Modifié par Saibh, 01 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You're thinking about the modern era, with modern media.  99.99% of people living in Thedas never saw Hawke, and those that did may not have even known who they were looking at.

Consider how in the fiction created in that era it is a common element for a king or equivalent to disguise himself if he want to find out what the population really thinks about him. This level of awareness isn't really modern, not when it was quite customary to have the image of the ruler stamped on every coin.

[WolfShapedBullet]

Naitaka wrote...

If every consequent "Legend" sequence of Varric's story uses the default Hawke appearance, then I'll concede to the popular image argument. Before that happens though, forgive me if I rather take Bioware's words on why they put CC after the action sequence instead of the justifications people came up with on their own.

I can get behind this frame of mind as well. At the end of the day, I'll enjoy the legendary prologue default appearance, just so long as it is just the beginning.

[AlexXIV]

blothulfur wrote...

Oh makers holy trousers we're not gonna be punished for starting a new character like in ME2 again are we, bloody hell what have we ever done to bioware (bar the endless nitpicking-but not even that deserves the ME2 forced playthrough torture).

Bloody sadists.

We bought their games, made them get awards. Now they don't listen to anyone anymore.

[bobbyjoe123]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

If every consequent "Legend" sequence of Varric's story uses the default Hawke appearance, then I'll concede to the popular image argument. Before that happens though, forgive me if I rather take Bioware's words on why they did it instead of the justification people came up with on their own.

I love Bioware too,  but, I don't BAAAAAAAAAAAA that hard.

Baa, you get it?

your a sheep?

[AntiChri5]

tmp7704 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You're thinking about the modern era, with modern media.  99.99% of people living in Thedas never saw Hawke, and those that did may not have even known who they were looking at.

Consider how in the fiction created in that era it is a common element for a king or equivalent to disguise himself if he want to find out what the population really thinks about him. This level of awareness isn't really modern, not when it was quite customary to have the image of the ruler stamped on every coin.

Money takes time to circulate, and we don't know if Kirkwall produces it's own coins.

[blothulfur]

Okay is there a safe word to stop this character creation torture, because honestly it's not turning me on anymore and did no one spot this obscenity in ME2.

Banana? ah well worth a try.

[Rune-Chan]

AlexXIV wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

Oh makers holy trousers we're not gonna be punished for starting a new character like in ME2 again are we, bloody hell what have we ever done to bioware (bar the endless nitpicking-but not even that deserves the ME2 forced playthrough torture).

Bloody sadists.

We bought their games, made them get awards. Now they don't listen to anyone anymore.

So I just bought a car, does that mean the car company should cater to my desires now?

Of course it bloody well doesn't. Grow up and get rid of your sense of self-entitlement.

Bioware do not "owe" us anything. They should listen to fans on occasion to see what people want, because it is good business practice, that doesn't mean we are entitled to have our suggestions taken on board.

[upsettingshorts]

The annoyance of the after-intro CC doesn't make much sense to me in any previous Bioware game the way it does in DA2. In DA2 it serves to establish the unreliability of the narrator. It serves an objectively useful purpose, whether you *like* the nature of the narration or not is irrelevant, the game has an unreliable narrator and needs to tell the player it does - and the exaggerated inaccurate intro is a great and economical way to do that.

[Naitaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

*snip

It depends on how we view the scenes we were shown in the frame narrative structure. Are they accurate depection of Varric's story word by word? Or more of a abstract visual representation of the "legend" that we see like many of the flashback sequence in movies? I highly doubt that Varric talked about how many stones were used in the ruins found in Lothering nor about exactly what pattern blood spatter formed on the ground after each battle, so I doubt Varric had to re-describe Hawke and his family each time he starts telling the legend instead of the truth. So if the exaggerated portion of the game were to be taken as the "legend" it's only logical they use Hawke's default appearance for the sake of  consistency if we were to believe that Hawke's default apperance is what the common people believes. Anyway, I'm a firm believer in that the most obvious answer, is often the right one.

Modifié par Naitaka, 01 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[bobbyjoe123]

Machines Are Us wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

Oh makers holy trousers we're not gonna be punished for starting a new character like in ME2 again are we, bloody hell what have we ever done to bioware (bar the endless nitpicking-but not even that deserves the ME2 forced playthrough torture).

Bloody sadists.

We bought their games, made them get awards. Now they don't listen to anyone anymore.

So I just bought a car, does that mean the car company should cater to my desires now?

Of course it bloody well doesn't. Grow up and get rid of your sense of self-entitlement.

Bioware do not "owe" us anything. They should listen to fans on occasion to see what people want, because it is good business practice, that doesn't mean we are entitled to have our suggestions taken on board.

speak the truth

[Garlant]

I think its just another clever part of telling the myth at the beginning. We've all seen the trailers and pictures of default Hawke all this time, it'd be a shame never to actually use him in the game. Well here's how. The legend tells of a man with dark hair, a beard and a smear of blood he refuses to clean from the bridge of his nose...

[blothulfur]

Funny how cassy babies got a book with accurate pictures of everybody bar emowig hawke and yet he's the one she's searching for, just saying.

[tmp7704]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Money takes time to circulate, and we don't know if Kirkwall produces it's own coins.

So do news given it's supposed to be "not modern" settings with modern media coverage. If champion is well known public persona to the point where he's supposed to have "public image" then i don't think it's unreasonable to expect the money also spread well enough by then. And Kirkwall is city-state so it'd be pretty normal for it to print its coin, just like our own equivalents did.

[AlexXIV]

Machines Are Us wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

Oh makers holy trousers we're not gonna be punished for starting a new character like in ME2 again are we, bloody hell what have we ever done to bioware (bar the endless nitpicking-but not even that deserves the ME2 forced playthrough torture).

Bloody sadists.

We bought their games, made them get awards. Now they don't listen to anyone anymore.

So I just bought a car, does that mean the car company should cater to my desires now?

Of course it bloody well doesn't. Grow up and get rid of your sense of self-entitlement.

Bioware do not "owe" us anything. They should listen to fans on occasion to see what people want, because it is good business practice, that doesn't mean we are entitled to have our suggestions taken on board.

Do you even know what we are talking about? I don't think so, and I don't think you know what you are talking about either.

[Zerakus]

As far as skin colour goes, he wouldn't have been the first to have been altered in that regard, Certain figures from the area near Egypt aren't liable to look like western europeans/americans... but people gradually change the truth to something closer to themselves.

Other than that, and Napoleon, there's also Vikings in general, and those horned helmets that weren't ever used. Way too impractical.. but seen in most modern portrayals of them. Or look at any leader with a personality, or divinity cult bult up around them.

[marshalleck]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The annoyance of the after-intro CC doesn't make much sense to me in any previous Bioware game the way it does in DA2. In DA2 it serves to establish the unreliability of the narrator. It serves an objectively useful purpose, whether you *like* the nature of the narration or not is irrelevant, the game has an unreliable narrator and needs to tell the player it does - and the exaggerated inaccurate intro is a great and economical way to do that.

You have to not be an idiot to pick up on this, though. 

[AlexXIV]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The annoyance of the after-intro CC doesn't make much sense to me in any previous Bioware game the way it does in DA2. In DA2 it serves to establish the unreliability of the narrator. It serves an objectively useful purpose, whether you *like* the nature of the narration or not is irrelevant, the game has an unreliable narrator and needs to tell the player it does - and the exaggerated inaccurate intro is a great and economical way to do that.

If that was true, why do they use the default hawke then? If the purpose was to give a wrong picture it should be, you know, wrong.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The annoyance of the after-intro CC doesn't make much sense to me in any previous Bioware game the way it does in DA2. In DA2 it serves to establish the unreliability of the narrator. It serves an objectively useful purpose, whether you *like* the nature of the narration or not is irrelevant, the game has an unreliable narrator and needs to tell the player it does - and the exaggerated inaccurate intro is a great and economical way to do that.

The game intro establishes the concept of unreliable narrator just as well without this particular gimmick.

It is also not the reason why the CC is delayed -- the lead designer made it quite clear they simply wanted people to immediately experience how it is to "explode the darkspawn". There's no point in trying to create elaborate lore schemes to justify what's a simple (and questionable) gameplay decision.

[marshalleck]

AlexXIV wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The annoyance of the after-intro CC doesn't make much sense to me in any previous Bioware game the way it does in DA2. In DA2 it serves to establish the unreliability of the narrator. It serves an objectively useful purpose, whether you *like* the nature of the narration or not is irrelevant, the game has an unreliable narrator and needs to tell the player it does - and the exaggerated inaccurate intro is a great and economical way to do that.

If that was true, why do they use the default hawke then? If the purpose was to give a wrong picture it should be, you know, wrong.

Thus Bethany's rack was expanded. 

[AlexXIV]

marshalleck wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The annoyance of the after-intro CC doesn't make much sense to me in any previous Bioware game the way it does in DA2. In DA2 it serves to establish the unreliability of the narrator. It serves an objectively useful purpose, whether you *like* the nature of the narration or not is irrelevant, the game has an unreliable narrator and needs to tell the player it does - and the exaggerated inaccurate intro is a great and economical way to do that.

If that was true, why do they use the default hawke then? If the purpose was to give a wrong picture it should be, you know, wrong.

Thus Bethany's rack was expanded. 

Which is quite important, since templars are known to especially look at these.

[Naitaka]

AlexXIV wrote...

If that was true, why do they use the default hawke then? If the purpose was to give a wrong picture it should be, you know, wrong.

Because you know...you are legend.

marshalleck wrote...
Thus Bethany's rack was expanded. 

I don't think you got his point. He said why are we allow to use the default Hawke if it is suppose to be used to establish the unreliable narrator.

Modifié par Naitaka, 01 mars 2011 - 09:00 .