706 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

AlexXIV wrote...

If that was true, why do they use the default hawke then? If the purpose was to give a wrong picture it should be, you know, wrong.

Can you imagine the amount of people that would go 'WHY CAN'T I BE THAT GUY?!'

I mean, what reason would there be not to look like that? You match the legend. But, like I said, it's not important that Varric is wrong. The actual appearance isn't important. I doubt the public had a massive meeting and decided what they wanted their legendary version of Hawke to look like. Hawke must appear handsome and powerful. And, so long as he does, it's fine.

Modifié par Saibh, 01 mars 2011 - 09:01 .

[Jorina Leto]

Well the overly long intro of Mass Effect 2 is more annoying because we cannot skip anything there.

At least we can skip the dialog in DA2.

[marshalleck]

Naitaka wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If that was true, why do they use the default hawke then? If the purpose was to give a wrong picture it should be, you know, wrong.

Because you know...you are legend.

marshalleck wrote...
Thus Bethany's rack was expanded. 

I don't think you got his point. He said why are we allow to use the default Hawke if it is suppose to be used to establish the unreliable narrator.

I don't think you got my point. Either way, Varric is established as having a tendency to embellish the truth.

If Bethany dies to the ogre early on, why would she be remembered in legend as having an enormous bosom? It seems clear to me that this is a little bit of Varric's imagination getting the best of him.  

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 mars 2011 - 09:04 .

[Jwlynas]

I love the credit people are giving Varric. Surely what we're seeing is Cassandras vision of the story as being told by Varric?

The same way people have an image of King Arthur in their heads, or Jesus, or Saladin. We have an expectation of certain heroes and villains in our heads, and we're rarely accurate. Especially not when all we have is fables of the legend behind the man. Thats why movie adaptations are always put under fire by fans who always saw the Main hero/villain/side-character as something different to the movies end result.

If the tale Varric is weaving is going to flow at all, it'll be a rather swift descriptiong of hawke to get him to the action. You know the sort of thing.

"The hero of our tale, the dashingly rugged hero of Kirkwall, the champion of the land, the mighty Hawke, set off on his journey with his Sister, the valiant and well endowed beauty know as Bethany."

So far, all entirely subjective, with no descriptions. But, because some people are visual, they're setting an image in their heads of these two. Hawke is Cassandras idea of ruggedly handsome. Bearded, youthful but fierce, blindingly bright eyes, a sure swagger in his step. Bethany is a comely lass, but busty and kind, because she's the sister of the hero. She doesn't need to be a blonde bombshell, indeed it'd be rather against the archetype, so she isn't.

When Cassandra finally calls him on the ridiculousness of his tale, varric smiles slyly and them explains

"In truth, Hawke was never the bearded vengeful templar hewn from the stone. He was a blonde haired rapscallion, a joker even when it would be irresponsible, a nervous young thing with dark eyes and a rather unappealing face. Legends will run away with themselves though, and the people pictured his as this bronzed god. A pity too" etc etc.

Thats how legends work. Chinese whispers, to the point where the legend is more well known than the truth. You say that "yes, but that take thousands of years" but I'm going to say just two words. Chuck norris. Memetic badass, and certainly far more famous amongst some for the "Chuck norris facts" website than his string of cheesy movies or short-lived TV show, or indeed his Karate Career.

Now imagine, instead of TV, the internet, dvds and other methods of communication, all you have to go on is those facts, as told by a local bard. and you live in a world where Ogres roam free, Dragons exist and magic is fairly common place. Would all of those facts be so hard to believe now? And would you believe they are about a man now over 60, with grey hair and a wrinkeled face, or would you picture him as a 12 foot tall bronzed god with pecs of iron and muscles of pure steel?

[Kreid]

Well, I think that the first segment is how Cassandra imagined Hawke and his/her sibling to be based on what she's either heard before or the image she gave them in her mind.
IMO the very first description Varric actually makes of Hawke is the character creation screen. 

Modifié par Creid-X, 01 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[Naitaka]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Well the overly long intro of Mass Effect 2 is more annoying because we cannot skip anything there.

At least we can skip the dialog in DA2.

Hear hear, but I rather they not continue this trend any further.

Saibh wrote...

Can you imagine the amount of people that would go 'WHY CAN'T I BE THAT GUY?!'

I mean, what reason would there be not to look like that? You match the legend. But, like I said, it's not important that Varric is wrong. The actual appearance isn't important. I doubt the public had a massive meeting and decided what they wanted their legendary version of Hawke to look like. Hawke must appear handsome and powerful. And, so long as he does, it's fine.

Either you CC was put after the opening section because they want to establish the unreliable narrator or it's put there for the reason Bioware have said themself. Since we CAN play as default Hawke, it most certainly fail horribly at doing the former if that was their intention. And what you said would imply that the custom Hawke we've made is not as handsome and powerful as the default?

[Xeranx]

The author of any story has no bearing on what images we'll conjure up when we hear or read said story. If the author starts to give us descriptors then he or she is responsible for what we believe the various characters in the story are. This is why Othello isn't thought of as a white man with a deep tan when he's described as a moor.

If were shown that the image of default Hawke was due to Cassandra's imagination and Varric corrects what she believes then there wouldn't be an issue. The problem arises from Varric telling the story to someone whose imagination is supposed to build the events so she can see it and he's giving descriptors of the legend and then asks Cassandra, "Isn't this what you already know?" All that does is cement in the mind of the player that Hawke, whether male or female, is anything but what we use the cc to make our version out to be. It tells us that we (the players) are going against the truth of the world of Thedas. It'll be like saying that Thomas Edison wasn't a white guy as I grew up to believe but black. If I start making statements that Thomas Edison was black that causes friction where a firm belief in history is supposed to exist that he is in fact white. Mind you, Thomas Edison being black is something I really came across and I don't know whether to believe it or not.

*EDIT*: Was writing my post when the thread was on page 5 so I didn't see Jwlynas' post, but I'll leave mine the way it is.

Modifié par Xeranx, 01 mars 2011 - 09:16 .

[AlexXIV]

Saibh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If that was true, why do they use the default hawke then? If the purpose was to give a wrong picture it should be, you know, wrong.

Can you imagine the amount of people that would go 'WHY CAN'T I BE THAT GUY?!'

I mean, what reason would there be not to look like that? You match the legend. But, like I said, it's not important that Varric is wrong. The actual appearance isn't important. I doubt the public had a massive meeting and decided what they wanted their legendary version of Hawke to look like. Hawke must appear handsome and powerful. And, so long as he does, it's fine.

My point is that the excuse for default hawke in the exaggerated part is sorta ... weak. People complain that the Hawke in the exaggerated part does not look like their custom Hawke. So saying because the exaggerating part is supposed to be misleading is kinda silly if you play a custom hawke and your 'real' Hawke looks exactly like the exaggerated Hawke. I am just eliminating an apology by logic, that's all. I don't know why Bioware did it that way and we will probably never know. And I think the reason is someone at Bioware wasn't thinking. Or why would it have been impossible to put the character creation before the exaggerated part?

I could probably care less. I just think Bioware is sometimes showing their not so nice side. Which is for once stupid, and also arrogant. Which is one of the worst combinations I can think of. They could just say it's so because of this and that. I'm not unreasonable, I understand a good reason. And I think most people actually do.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mars 2011 - 09:14 .

[RPGamer13]

Well, even if we got to wait after his embellishment: at least we'll get to save before we get to the character creations when we actually have the game.

[Naitaka]

Jwlynas wrote...
*snip

That actually sound plausible, damn you for actually making sense...

[tmp7704]

RPGamer13 wrote...

Well, even if we got to wait after his embellishment: at least we'll get to save before we get to the character creations when we actually have the game.

I wonder about it, actually -- since you don't generate character's name until you hit the CC, before then your character technically doesn't exist. As such, it may be quite possible save option isn't enabled until after the CC, similar how it was also locked in ME2?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Elsariel wrote...

It works for Jesus.

The popular image of Jesus isn't even plausible for a person of his region and era, and yet it persists.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 01 mars 2011 - 09:15 .

[blothulfur]

Ah I might hate it but i'm stuck with it so i'll stop complaining, just cheapens my hawke in my eyes though and I absolutely detest old emowig more than ever.

[Saibh]

AlexXIV wrote...

My point is that the excuse for default hawke in the exaggerated part is sorta ... weak. People complain that the Hawke in the exaggerated part does not look like their custom Hawke. So saying because the exaggerating part is supposed to be misleading is kinda silly if you play a custom hawke and you look exactly like the your hawke. I am just eliminating an apology by logic, that's all. I don't know why Bioware did it that way and we will probably never know. And I think the reason is someone at Bioware wasn't thinking. Or why would it have been impossible to put the character creation before the exaggerated part?

I could probably care less. I just think Bioware is sometimes showing their not so nice side. Which is for once stupid, and also arrogant. Which is one of the worst combinations I can think of. They could just say it's so because of this and that. I'm not unreasonable, I understand a good reason. And I think most people actually do.

Who said it was supposed to be misleading? Us? This is our speculation.

My speculation has nothing to do with it being misleading. It has to do with the legendary Hawke needing a few key traits--that is, good-looking and powerful-looking--and it doesn't really matter what he looks like after that.

The "legendary" version is those things. But your Hawke might be balding, have beady eyes, a piggish nose, a weak chin, and bulbous lips. No one would think of that when they think "legendary". That's the illusion the game is creating for you--that the legendary version has a powerful and good-looking appearance to match, whether or not he actually looked like that.

Similar to how Alistair questions whether Andraste was really as good-looking as the statues of her make it out to be--people would like to believe that Hawke is not only a powerful warrior, but has an appearance to match.

[Naitaka]

tmp7704 wrote...
I wonder about it, actually -- since you don't generate character's name until you hit the CC, before then your character technically doesn't exist. As such, it may be quite possible save option isn't enabled until after the CC, similar how it was also locked in ME2?

Well for one, we can't access the character sheet, tactic, nor the talent tree during that section, so I doubt we'll be able to save there.

Modifié par Naitaka, 01 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[Wulfram]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The popular image of Jesus isn't even plausible for a person of his region and era, and yet it persists.

Hawke's more popular than Jesus .  At least, more famous than he was when he was alive.

[AlexXIV]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Elsariel wrote...

It works for Jesus.

The popular image of Jesus isn't even plausible for a person of his region and era, and yet it persists.

Because the church couldn't have a jewish looking Jesus. Just like in many Hollywood movies supposed native americans or asian or even black people are played by white guys and gals who just look like they have been in the sun alot lately. I saw a docu on TV that depicts how european historians actually cheated on history. As in they let discoveries and proofs disappear so people would not get the wrong idea that for example african people are not just 'savages' but actually had a higher developed culture than europe at a time.

So unless some party does not have an interest to change history to better fit their political view it is rather accurate, there is no change necessary. And Hawke didn't die 2000 years ago either. He is probably actually alive during Varric's tale.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 mars 2011 - 09:22 .

[FearTheLiving]

If they use the default Hawke in all the exagerated parts then it seems as if Bioware was just being lazy and didn't want to mess with all the different choices and what not of your character.

[Saibh]

FearTheLiving wrote...

If they use the default Hawke in all the exagerated parts then it seems as if Bioware was just being lazy and didn't want to mess with all the different choices and what not of your character.

Right. Because it would have been impossible for them to make the CC happen before the game starts! It's not like the rest of the game is spent with a custom character. Nope, those ten minutes just couldn't be integrated with a CC! That's it! They're lazy! You got it, champ!

[Derrp]

So much controversy would have been avoided by simply allowing character customization beforehand. Default Hawke is default Hawke though .. there were swarthy people all over Ferelden in DAO so I don't think it's much of a jump from the way Hawke looks now to a brown skinned, green eyed, < insert hair color > Hawke being what you play through as.

People had lots of different looks in Ferelden, so Cassandra could have assumed he looked a lot of different ways.

[FearTheLiving]

Saibh wrote...

FearTheLiving wrote...

If they use the default Hawke in all the exagerated parts then it seems as if Bioware was just being lazy and didn't want to mess with all the different choices and what not of your character.

Right. Because it would have been impossible for them to make the CC happen before the game starts! It's not like the rest of the game is spent with a custom character. Nope, those ten minutes just couldn't be integrated with a CC! That's it! They're lazy! You got it, champ!

Yeah but lets say they use the deafult for all the parts Varric exaggerates and that those are 25% of the game that's a huge chunk of the game they just didn't do anything for your chacter. Oh and please don't be a smart ass this is just speculation after all becuase we don't actually know how it is in the game.

[AlexXIV]

Saibh wrote...

FearTheLiving wrote...

If they use the default Hawke in all the exagerated parts then it seems as if Bioware was just being lazy and didn't want to mess with all the different choices and what not of your character.

Right. Because it would have been impossible for them to make the CC happen before the game starts! It's not like the rest of the game is spent with a custom character. Nope, those ten minutes just couldn't be integrated with a CC! That's it! They're lazy! You got it, champ!

That's the thing that disturbs me most. I don't understand it. It would not be any harder to make the exaggerated part with custom hawke. I have no clue why they did it and it drives me crazy.

[Derrp]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Elsariel wrote...

It works for Jesus.

The popular image of Jesus isn't even plausible for a person of his region and era, and yet it persists.

Because the church couldn't have a jewish looking Jesus. Just like in many Hollywood movies supposed native americans or asian or even black people are played by white guys and gals who just look like they have been in the sun alot lately. I saw a docu on TV that depicts how european historians actually cheated on history. As in they let discoveries and proofs disappear so people would not get the wrong idea that for example african people are not just 'savages' but actually had a higher developed culture than europe at a time.

So unless some party does not have an interest to change history to better fit their political view it is rather accurate, there is no change necessary. And Hawke didn't die 2000 years ago either. He is probably actually alive during Varric's tale.

Your post wasn't very coherent and came out calling African people savages .. that's all I got out of it.

[HTTP 404]

the odd thing is that my hawke will be far more handsomer than the Default Hawke. Varric will be downplaying my hawke in the beginning...