33 réponses à ce sujet

[Jenna WSI]

I'm curious if anyone is willing to give out a few hints, because I'm rather tired of getting people who want to play cheesy characters that do things like "I'm an ancient green dragon trapped in the body of this elf!".

Also, does seeing this type of player make a serious rper logout? Really it's a shame if the goal of the server is to attract one and not the other.

The only thing that comes to mind to me is to create a server with in depth roleplaying aspects, skill checks, quests with stories, etc... and have the atmosphere reflect what you want to attract.

Modifié par Jenna WSI, 01 mars 2011 - 07:16 .

[SHOVA]

I would take a bit of DM licence with the Player with the dragon in an elf body. as a DM: Sure you can play as a green dragon in an elfs body, but you have amnesia. If they don't play that, then have a enemy blue dragon drop in on them saying "I found you at last." then let them know after it kills them that death from a being eaten by a Blue dragon, does not let you be raised, rezed, or reincarnated.

Its your server, and while its all nice and good to say you want everyone to show up and play, its unrealisitic, as everyone does include those that are not going to want to play at your RP desire. Fact of life. I'll probably get remarks that perma-killing some PC is a terrible way to handle that player. However, I don't see you posting anything about how to teach players how to RP, or asking for tips on how to put up with them. It is after all your PW. your the one who hosted it up for play, you have the right to deny those who don't want to follow the ideal RP level the priviledge of logging in. It may come to that. It often does. There is no shame in telling a player, I think it is time you went somewhere else to play. thank fully there are loads of servers where they can be a green dragon in a elfs body. the main question here is how much time do you want to spend telling players No, you can not do that, or thats not what we are about here.

The other thing to point out is most servers that are more RP intense, have signs posted in their log in rooms all about what can and can't be RP'ed Most do not have problems with following the rules. every now and then you get someone who does. my advice spend as little time as possible dealing with those who do not want to follow what you have set in place, they will only cause you grief, and give you the desire to turn off the server.

good luck, and bon appetit!

[olivier leroux]

How to attract serious RPers? Probably not by outing your server as one who is besieged by cheesy characters and ancient green dragons trapped in the body of elves.


But might I ask what's so wrong about these players in your opinion? Can you elaborate? Are they just pretending cheesy things like that or do they also expect anyone to act accordingly? Are they seriously ruining the fun for the 'serious' RPers? And how would you define serious?

I guess I'm not really a serious RPer myself, so I apologize for the interference - I'm just curious because my ingenuous belief always was that RPers should be able to handle all kinds of situations with dignity, no matter how stupid they are, and maybe even get some fun out of the challenge this presents. Perhaps these players with cheesy roleplay will move on or follow the example of the 'serious' RPers once they realize their little dragon story doesn't really impress or annoy anyone.

Then again, it could be that to attract the kind of RPers you want and get rid of the others, you'd have to drop your friendliness towards newbies, make your server less easily accessible, request people to apply with their character's CV and threaten that you'll observe and judge the quality of their roleplaying. That would certainly keep casual RPers like me away (even though I've never pretended to be a dragon in an elf's body so far, and in reality it's quite the opposite  ).

[Edit: SHO-VA's examples are pretty funny and even if a bit harsh definitely a hint of what I meant by challenge. I think it could actually be fun for DMs and other players to react to such claims with wit and imagination. If everyone treats the elf as a looney, what will the trapped dragon do about it? The claim alone doesn't make the elf anymore important or powerful than anyone else. Who knows, handling it this way may lead to all sides being happy and relaxed, while other ways are likely to cause grief and stress for everyone involved. If it's played out with imagination and no hard feelings, the player might even laugh about his PC getting killed by a blue dragon rival, instead of swearing revenge to your and your server. ]

Modifié par olivier leroux, 01 mars 2011 - 10:58 .

[Karvon]

I generally don't like interacting with PCs with really exotic/crazy backgrounds such as you described. I also don't like people posting their life's history in the PC description, rather than just a brief physical description. OTOH, I dislike seeing them simply blank, or some metagaming phrase like "ASK ME!".

I suspect one issue, based on my visits to various PWs and participation in a wide number of different DM'ed campaigns, is even reaching a consensus on what a serious RPer is.  Many seem to equate being talkative and chatty with good RP'ing. Some hold it important to have a detailed and well-developed bio to play off of. Others feel it's how well you work together with the other players and contribute to the team effort.

As a DM, or PW staff, you may need to clarify what your definition is, in order to attract and retain like minded players. If you have widely diverging views of what constitutes RP'ing in your PW/campaign group, you're in for some "interesting" times. Some players - and DMs - could very likely get upset with the actions of those who have a different take on what RP'ing is all about.

A couple of personal examples...

I was playing a big half-orc hunter in region where orcs were not liked much at all. On top of that, most of our group, myself included, were arrested in the initial session and then broken out of jail by the others. Thus, now, most of us were wanted and had a price on our head, as a main underlying plot of the campaign.  Though we had some elite guard hunting us, the group wanted to go into a village to shop and spend the night. I refused and camped out in the safety of the woods from where I could keep an eye on things.  The DM understood and privately commended me for my actions, but my team mates were a bit pissed off that I wouldn't come in with them and help gather supplies and info. I spent a couple of hours of game time essentially twiddling my thumbs while they ran errands and got into some trouble.

I was playing a not very bright illiterate mercenary, both aspects having been made clear thru initial bio postings and ingame RP.  Yet, my companions got mad at me on more than one occasion, for not knowing about info gleaned from books or notes they passed around - but which I didn't read OOC, and they failed to relate to me IC - despite my queries at the time. Or they got upset when I didn't answer, or give hints to complicated riddles they couldn't figure out, though I did figure them out OOC.

I was playing quiet cautious professional burglar who'd contracted to work with a group of adventurers. Despite keeping them out of trouble thanks to good scouting and trap sweeping, and providing them a better than average return on stuff he picked up and sold then split, they never really trusted him because of his mercenary, rather than heroic, attitude and I was eventually asked by the DM to leave the campaign for "not fitting in".

My 2 coppers,

Karvon

[Aleron]

For the "Green dragon in Elf" example, it was just that, an example.

As a member of the staff there, we have seen some similar strange things though. I think what Jen is getting at is characters that stretch the believability of the setting and compromise the lore of the server.

While similar characters were there, that is how they were treated as an aside. As loonies or crazies by most of the other PCs and NPCs. It is the most likely rp reaction after all. This isn't necessarily how they want to be treated though and it went badly at which point they left.

What I think we are trying to get at is what encourages people at these servers? Would characters like the above make you want to stay or leave? How far is too far?

In any case, thanks for the thoughts and ideas so far. Appreciate them!

[TripleAught]

I think there are a couple of ways that you can attract serious role-players to a world. There are a few that are easy, probably won't be the only solution, and some that require more work.

1. Put your world in the RP Story category of GameSpy. At least there's more of a chance that role-players are looking in this forum for places to play.

2. Put a password on your server. This is going to make it harder for players to find your world, unless you can point them towards your website for information about how to get the passwords. Often this includes a character bio and maybe some questions about how they define RP.

3. A deep and expansive world lore.

Aleron wrote...

As a member of the staff there, we have seen some similar strange things though. I think what Jen is getting at is characters that stretch the believability of the setting and compromise the lore of the server.

When you have Lore that gives enough definition to the world that people can find creativity within those boundaries, they're less likely to do crazy stuff (not to say that it won't ever happen, but less likely). And, when you have a detailed world lore -- both world background as well as IG, server-time lore -- you are in better position to ask players not to do certain things.

4. Create some rules around what you consider "Inappropriate RP". Again this gives you something clear to point to when you need to ask people to stop doing something.

I'm going to disagree a bit with the advice to "Play it out" and see what people do, especially when it is something that is really outside the scope of your world lore. The trouble with that, is that it violates the social contract you have with your existing players. You've established with them an expectation of what will be presented to them in the world, when a player takes that in a completely different direction -- and seems be be supported by the DMs or world leaders -- it can cause serious confusion and annoyance for players that have been trying to work within the established framework. Even going the "Oh, he's just crazy" route doesn't tend to work well because it's very difficult for players to use their characters natural reactions to something that is essentially an OOC circumstance.

(And if you'd like to do some first-hand research on a serious RP world that's gone well, you are welcome to come see Avlis.  )

[TripleAught]

Sorry double-posted.

Modifié par TripleAught, 04 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[MingWolf]

As one who started out not knowing the tip of the iceberg in rp'ing and took a fair amount of time to fit in within high-RP worlds, I want to pitch in my couple silvers. Now, there will be people out there who may outright refuse to cooperate with your particular server philosophy but it could be helpful if you consider things coming from the perspective of your players:

-They may not know the lore. Do not assume that they do just because they have a character on your server.
-They might be new at RP'ing and are therefore unaware of the proper social etiquette. I didn't even know what a dice roll was when I first started.
-They are unaware of the philosophy pertaining to your server.
-They are having trouble fitting: are there something wrong with the rules? Other players? DMs? Admin?

I've sampled a rather abundant amount of servers over the years and some of the things that have worked rather well include:

-Teach your players how to RP. Instead of trying to attract serious RPers, why not make them into the kind that fits the philosophy of your server? I've seen some fantastic players over the years that started aimlessly with ridiculous characters and eventually turned into great storytellers that made me cry my eyes out. A lot of servers out there simply cry foul and try to make them leave which I find counter-productive.

-Try to give suggestions to your players on how they should react to the imaginative world that is your server. Offer tips, either in their journal, on your main page, or at the starting area on how best to RP, interact, and communicate.

-Breakdown the lore and make that lore understandable. Some PWs have so much lore attached to them that it is simply incomprehensible for anyone who isn't a scholar. Forgotten Realms, for example, has enough volumes of text to make a lifelong study.

-Make your rules clear and make sure the players understand them.

-Try to engage your players rather than turning them away. I've learned more about RP'ing by being around people who can set a good example rather than whistle-blow everytime I emote something they deemed ridiculous.

I know my response was a bit on the social side of things where the thread is more about attracting the serious RPer and the effects of being around those with far fetched characters. Apologies given if this is not the kind of response you are looking for. Quite frankly, I've seen a lot of servers fail because they simply cannot acknowledge the players on their server or are selective of those who are in residence. The servers I revisit are quite the contrary.

Actually, some places I've seen players with ridiculous characters to begin with raising the flag on others for poor roleplaying. I would rather put up with a green dragon elf who is ignorant than such kinds of players.

If you want characters that are believable and fit into the realms of the pertinent lore, I think providing your players with some guidance is a good start. If not, then consider it an alternative, or an option.

Modifié par MingWolf, 04 mars 2011 - 07:48 .

[olivier leroux]

I couldn't agree more with MingWolf's post - that's exactly what I meant to say, too, but didn't bring across so convincingly. Of course, if players outright refuse to collaborate you'd have every right to chide, punish and ban them. And I didn't mean to say DM's should support these players' cheesy stories if they don't fit in. But some players may not even know that they cause offense and why because they're inexperienced and/or because the server rules don't cover this presumed offense. I don't think it's fair to declare them as lost causes right from the beginning and try to get rid of them when there's a chance they might actually be nice and cooperative people that can turn into serious RP'ers if you treat them right. I guess these are not the kind of people that Jenna and Aleron refer to, but I'm still thankful for MingWolf's words of wisdom.

Modifié par olivier leroux, 04 mars 2011 - 12:21 .

[Aleron]

You're very right. I'm a big advocate myself for teaching new players the ropes. Chastising and punishing players is never fun for any server admin and I do think you had some very good points MingWolf. Perhaps some better documentation upon entering the world to give players an idea of what is and is not acceptable is in order. Thanks for both your input, I find myself agreeing with them wholeheartedly.

[Sorgrimos]

Take some tips from other servers. Many are already well-established and have years of experience dealing with this sort of thing. Really, look around. There's plenty to learn from others.

[Jenna WSI]

Ming has some good points there. But one thing I fear is needing to set a limit, if you spend too much time teaching people how to roleplay, you miss out on dming for those that know how. Still, it's a very positive spin on the situation, and I admit my first leap into NWN roleplaying wasn't very serious, informed, or correct (lore-wise).

One of the reasons I posted this thread though was to see if the hardcore roleplayers are driven away by these fresh faces that are just learning. Especially when it means the other characters are just too unbelievable due to superpowers, crazy background stories, or whatever.

[MingWolf]

Some of the points I mentioned probably works better on paper than in practice, but having informed players help when your trying to guide them to a particular focus that makes the world come alive. I remember my very first high-RP server provided plenty of newbie tips like writing things in journals, how to emote, etc. that helped things along nicely. One server had a link to the neverwinterconnections players guide, which also helps immensely.

Its probably impractical to teach all the players you run into. I'd probably too lazy to do it, but it doesn't hurt to shed a few tips to get the totally lost in the right direction.

Tbh, I've never really left a server because of characters with ridiculous backstories or concepts. Maybe its just me, but I think that unless the server is completely populated with these people, most deep down roleplayers who are somewhat connected to the lore and the world probably won't take these characters seriously in the first place. I've more often left servers for more serious offenses like rude and arrogant people running the show.

Modifié par MingWolf, 08 mars 2011 - 03:56 .

[henesua]

A big aspect of Role Playing (to me at least) is story telling. When Vives was going strong we had a very active forum where players wrote fiction based ion their character, or used the forums in ways that expanded upon in game action (letters between players, journals, transcripts of dialog between characters) etc.... So in my experience I look at a PW's forum as a judge of the quality of role playing going on there.

[ffbj]

It is a role the preson is playing, plain and simple. If you simply put some comments on the server telling people not to bother coming in if they don't have a clue what that means.
Of course everyone has some different ideas as to what that means, some wildly divergent.
I ran a campaign for a dozen years and have been role-playing for 3 decades so I think I have some idea of what good role-playing is, and by the way, I have seen very little of it actually done though on the many servers I have been on, but some at least attempt it, which is good enough for me.

Modifié par ffbj, 11 mars 2011 - 12:32 .

[Totems and Teaparties]

There's a balance you need to maintain when considering what you label as 'serious' roleplayer. Having played across servers with compete freeform and no rules, and servers with long application processes, I found two extremes in NWN RP and the pros and cons to each:

The first is on the side away from strict, serious RPer. Total freeform, no rules, no restrictions. The elf-dragon mentioned? Oh yeah. They're here in the bar with us. So are the surface drow, the teiflings, the celestials, the half dragons, the strange half-canine fellow over there by the jukebox. Storylines don't know limit. No brown and drab 'realism' to get us down here. Fantastical is the norm.

Pros: Complete creativity abound. I have played on servers with this extreme and absolutely loved being able to craft whatever history or story caught my interest that day. Maybe I feel like hunting in the woods as a satyr in the morning, and after lunch stomping around as a slaad, I can do that. No one cares, they're all here to have fun. Fun is the name of the game. No one is afraid to propose radical and new ideas. This can lead to amazing stories and their seriousness is entirely up to the players involved.

Cons: The environment can attract and breed the 'my PC is better than yours' one-upping. Because fantastical is the norm, to be unique or different, you have to go to extreme lengths to do something out of the ordinary. There's no big reveal generally and drama has to be pumped to insane levels just to mean anything.

The other side of the spectrum is the deep, serious rulesy application-only roleplay worlds. When you get into them you know you're in with people vetted by a process to eliminate anyone who doesn't want to play within the pre-set lore of the sandbox. You're not going to run into random elf-dragons.

Pros: If you're getting into a server like this, generally you're in for the long haul. You find people with long, amazing, deep stories and three dimensional characters. Character development is a big deal, and you can really connect with the story. If something fantastical really comes along, it means something big.

Cons: Such structures and rules, especially with an application process, also tend to breed elitism. It's not a healthy community feature to collectively say 'we're SO much better than server X because we're much better roleplayers.' Egos can get puffed, and the us-VS-them will eventually turn inward on the community itself. Because you already had to prove yourself to get in, you may not be brave enough to strike out and try something radical and new, sticking to the same RP that gets you the praise of your peers.

The best servers I've played on have always struck a balance somewhere between those extremes, but the biggest contributing factor to maintaining that balance and the atmosphere is how you present your server at the first look- your forums.

I always like to read back on forums when I check out a new server. If I see public drama or drama spanning multiple threads, I'm less likely to give the world a test run. If I see that the rules are 20 pages long, or linked across 10 threads with obscure, hard to find tidbits, I'll look elsewhere. If I see a public wall of shame, I'll start running for the door.

If I see general forum banter, screenshots, themesong threads, character bios, interesting discussions, then the playerbase looks like a nice, sane group of people. This is where you can hook people- even if they do run into Mr. Dragon-elf PC. If they see 30 character bios of 'normal' (for the server) PCs, then the Dragon-Elf's power to represent your world diminishes.

That was way more longwinded than I meant. Haha. I'll get to my point.

You need to decide first how you define 'serious' roleplayers, You need to know exactly what you want to attract. When you've got them, nurture them. Make your world thrive on the players you want, and the'll multiply like bunnies in the spring.

[kalbaern]

Best response yet "Totem..".

[henesua]

Overall I agree with Totem. You need to strike a balance, and the face that the forum gives to new players is the critical piece to get right. However in response to Totem's claim that application based servers with server specific lore having tendencies toward elitism I disagree.

It is not necessarily true that a server application breeds elitism. I think that has more to do with the maturity of player making the complaint. I heard the same claim from some players at Vives, and the one common thread between them is that they were not getting enough DM attention to their PC specific stories. Not that they were getting no attention, just that they weren't getting enough.

So take claims of "eliticism" with a grain of salt. Its a common complaint by those that feel they don't get enough attention.

In my view, a good role player is someone who can get a story rolling with other players (or on their own) regardless of whether a DM is involved. As long as they share their narrative on the forum then eventually their story gathers momentum and others get drawn in.

[Jenna WSI]

Totem: I think you're right on the money with that post, and I was thinking about how to strike a balance between the two, before getting the end and reading your thoughts on a server that works in between the extremes.

As an aside, you said you run away from servers that use a 'wall of shame'. We started posting bans when they were a repeat offender or permabanned, because bitter players have a way of spreading a distorted truth about the situation. It was done out of our protection against slander. Do you still see it as a bad way to handle bans, if the intent is not to degrade or shame a player, and is not worded in that way?

[Totems and Teaparties]

@ Henesua
What I presented were fictitious extremes, you're very right in that applications =/= 'elitist' behavior server. And yes, it is a common cry for those who feel they're being treated unfairly. I think, though, that applications tend to attract people like the person reviewing them. This can be extremely good, or extremely bad. As an aside, I think it is far more a novel of rules than an application process that causes the 'My sandbox is better than yours' syndrome.

@Jenna
This is a personal opinion, and while I know others who share it I don't actually know how widespread it is. I'm going to be very open an honest- this is not an attack on you or your server by any means, or a representation of how bans might be handled there.

I've been part of a few RP communities where Bans were aired to the public, and even when the admins tried to handle it as gently as possible, the fact is that you're still shaming the person by posting the fact that they were banned. It airs dirty laundry which can look distasteful to the outside eye. As a new player, I don't care if Bob the Barbarian found an exploit- I'm never gonna see him. He's banned.

The other issue with posting them is you're already expecting the banned player to spread disoriented truth. You've effectively punished them again (via the public shaming post). Not being able to continue to RP and log on your server/forums should be punishment enough, there is no need to publicly degrade them. If they are disgruntled and come back to bemoan and whine on your forums, then they're already putting themselves out. Lock the thread after a simple 'If you wish to ask questions about your ban, please e-mail (email here)' and shut down their new account. Their own actions will make them look bad. If someone goes quietly, there's no reason for the server to be ever the wiser why Problem Player A is no longer bugging them. If the banned player has friends left behind, chances are they'll know the truth of what's going on whether you post the bans or not.

What posting the banning does is actually make you look bad. You're presenting yourself already on the defensive. If the ban was just, you don't need to defend it. People are generally skeptical anyway, if someone is calming 'Oh yeah Jenna totally banned me because I have blond hair and she hates blond hair!' (immensely fictitious example) but all the players know of you is a fair and levelheaded admin, they're not likely to believe you're actually on some anti-blond campaign.

The last, and possibly most important part (and possibly the one capable of sparking the most debate) is that posting public bans can encourage harassment of the person banned. You may be trying to keep the truth out there, but maybe Player D was super disgruntled with this person and not as mature as you thought. They feel justified now and follow the person to a new server to cause them grief. Public bans are food for the inner troll, you cannot control what people read them and what people do with the information. Afterall, if they go on some anonymous account- how are you to know they're acting out of line? Remember the Internet Dickwad Theory.

All said, this is personal opinion of mine based on my experiences on online servers. Once again, I'm speaking in ridiculous general terms, there are always exceptions/etc. But I think this sums up why I don't much like public banning posts.

[Jenna WSI]

Thanks for posting that reply. I'll give it some thought. I DMed on Amia before starting the WSI and I had seen the slander go on with many of the banned players. They'd make up reason that the admin/dms were unfair and conveniently dance around anything they had done that might have been wrong or caused the DMs to react that way.  It's happened a handfull of times with WSI and I noticed other servers flat out posting bans.. and I thought of it as a way to be transparent in our dealings, and take care of slander at the same time. While slander may not seem like a big deal at first, it is when you're loosing half of your playerbase because of one bad player who's both very social and good at persuading people.

Modifié par Jenna WSI, 11 mars 2011 - 11:34 .

[kalbaern]

Jenna WSI wrote...

Thanks for posting that reply. I'll give it some thought. I DMed on Amia before starting the WSI and I had seen the slander go on with many of the banned players. They'd make up reason that the admin/dms were unfair and conveniently dance around anything they had done that might have been wrong or caused the DMs to react that way.  It's happened a handfull of times with WSI and I noticed other servers flat out posting bans.. and I thought of it as a way to be transparent in our dealings, and take care of slander at the same time. While slander may not seem like a big deal at first, it is when you're loosing half of your playerbase because of one bad player who's both very social and good at persuading people.

I've seen the same many places as well, including on my own PW. I've considered often whether or not to post publicly bans and/or other punishments. So far, I've held off. I can see both sides though. For now, I simply ban from both the server and forums any that need it. I make sure that banned players have my own and other DMs Emails incase they wish to plead their cases still. Bans aren't issued lightly though. I generally speak with all players involved in any issue privately first. "We" also do any player intervues with at least two DMs present to help avoid any misunderstandings. If a DM was the one bringing a player issue to the fore, they will not attend any fact finding intervues.

So far we've had good luck and minimal issues with our playerbase overall. The few "flame wars" that have errupted were quickly doused and we've moved on. Have we lost some players from collateral damage in dealing with one "knucklehead" who gets his/her buddies to follow them somewhere else? Yup. For as many as we've lost that way though, we've gained more by standing our ground. We're a heavy RP PW, but that doesn't mean we'll tolerate for long any player's RP that is aimed at just making others miserable in the end either.

[SuperFly_2000]

Is this off topic?

[Jenna WSI]

Yes, but seeing as I helped de-rail my own thread... does it matter?

[TSMDude]

Jenna WSI wrote...

Thanks for posting that reply. I'll give it some thought. I DMed on Amia before starting the WSI and I had seen the slander go on with many of the banned players. They'd make up reason that the admin/dms were unfair and conveniently dance around anything they had done that might have been wrong or caused the DMs to react that way.  It's happened a handfull of times with WSI and I noticed other servers flat out posting bans.. and I thought of it as a way to be transparent in our dealings, and take care of slander at the same time. While slander may not seem like a big deal at first, it is when you're loosing half of your playerbase because of one bad player who's both very social and good at persuading people.

While I agree with almost everything Totem wrote this I do agree on as well. In this day and age we post everything to the Staff side from Skype conversations and what not to be as transparent as possible.

It is like when I was in the military you never go anywhere with a female on your own. 99% of all women wouldnever do a thing but that 1% will be mean and lie enough to bring it all done. (And this goes same for men as well.)