76 réponses à ce sujet

[Ty2011]

Null_ wrote...

Dont. Was my biggest mistake to pick this on my Soldier
Get Widow

^this.

Mattock is deadly and precise. The Revenant looks/sounds cool but it doesn't do the job unless the enemy is 2 feet away from you.

[JaegerBane]

Ty2011 wrote...

Null_ wrote...

Dont. Was my biggest mistake to pick this on my Soldier
Get Widow

^this.

Mattock is deadly and precise. The Revenant looks/sounds cool but it doesn't do the job unless the enemy is 2 feet away from you.

Oh, come on. As powerful as the Mattock is, let's not keep peddling this myth that you need to be on top of an opponent to use the Revenant. It's not *that* inaccurate. I certainly haven't much problem getting most of my shots on target at medium range, and I use it on my modded Adept more than I use it on my soldier, so it's not like I'm using it under AR exclusively.

[termokanden]

I have been trying to say the same thing many times. After the accuracy upgrade in particular, the Revenant is reasonably accurate even at medium range. I'm not super skilled or anything, and I was able to control the recoil even when firing full-auto without Adrenaline Rush.

The problem when choosing between the two FOR ME is actually the Widow. I'm not choosing between using the Revenant and the Mattock - that one is easy, it would be Revenant every time for the fun factor. I'm choosing between Revanant and no Widow (my favorite sniper rifle) and Mattock + Widow.

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...
The problem when choosing between the two FOR ME is actually the Widow. I'm not choosing between using the Revenant and the Mattock - that one is easy, it would be Revenant every time for the fun factor. I'm choosing between Revanant and no Widow (my favorite sniper rifle) and Mattock + Widow.

I think this is where the weapons system falls apart - the Widow is a straight upgrade to the Mantis and hence for a player that likes that kind of weapon, it's very difficult to pick anything else. The addition of an Assault Rifle which outperforms everything else pretty much seals the situation.

That said, I've always preferred the Viper

[Ty2011]

JaegerBane wrote...
Oh, come on. As powerful as the Mattock is, let's not keep peddling this myth that you need to be on top of an opponent to use the Revenant. It's not *that* inaccurate. I certainly haven't much problem getting most of my shots on target at medium range, and I use it on my modded Adept more than I use it on my soldier, so it's not like I'm using it under AR exclusively.

It's not much of a myth, i'm speaking from experience. It's no problem hitting the target it just seems to lose lots of power over distance. Whereas the Mattock is powerful both close and far away. It's an all purpose weapon and it kills faster than any other assault rifle. The Revenant can pack a punch but it certainly gets more credit than it deserves.

[termokanden]

It's getting way less credit than it deserves. You hardly see it mentioned anywhere without some mention of how it's overshadowed by the Mattock, which is technically true.

Before the Mattock was there, there were even people arguing that the Vindicator was a better choice.

My point is, I don't think the Revenant ever had much credit around here. It's not an all-powerful supergun, but it's a fun weapon for a Rambo-style soldier.

Modifié par termokanden, 07 mars 2011 - 10:20 .

[RedCaesar97]

Ty2011 wrote...

It's not much of a myth, i'm speaking from experience. It's no problem hitting the target it just seems to lose lots of power over distance. Whereas the Mattock is powerful both close and far away. It's an all purpose weapon and it kills faster than any other assault rifle. The Revenant can pack a punch but it certainly gets more credit than it deserves.

I will admit that I used to think like you, until I got used to the Revenant. The biggest problem I had with Revenant at first (before the Mattock ever came out) was going from the Vindicator--a very accurate weapon--to Revenant, which felt to me like the Avenger on steroids. Once I started using it like the Avenger--short controlled bursts at medium-to-short-range targets--I found it rather powerful. 

If you use the Mattock and Vindicator a lot, then yes, the Revenant can be very hard to use.

[JaegerBane]

Ty2011 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
Oh, come on. As powerful as the Mattock is, let's not keep peddling this myth that you need to be on top of an opponent to use the Revenant. It's not *that* inaccurate. I certainly haven't much problem getting most of my shots on target at medium range, and I use it on my modded Adept more than I use it on my soldier, so it's not like I'm using it under AR exclusively.

It's not much of a myth, i'm speaking from experience. It's no problem hitting the target it just seems to lose lots of power over distance. Whereas the Mattock is powerful both close and far away. It's an all purpose weapon and it kills faster than any other assault rifle. The Revenant can pack a punch but it certainly gets more credit than it deserves.

The Mattock does do over twice the damage with little-to-no drop in accuracy so I'd imagine something like the Revenant would certainly appear to lose power over a distance if simply fired on full-auto, but highly-rapid 1-2 shot bursts largely elminate this problem against humanoid targets and thanks to a large clip, this can be kept up for quite a while. Or, in other words, it only performs poorly at medium range if you don't know how to use it properly.

It's no secret the Mattock is an all-purpose weapon that kills quickly - it's the least balanced weapon in the entire game, so that's not really any surprise and not something I was disputing. All I was disputing was this tired old idea that you need to be at point blank to use the Revenant, nothing more.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 07 mars 2011 - 10:24 .

[Ty2011]

JaegerBane wrote...
The Mattock does do over twice the damage with little-to-no drop in accuracy so I'd imagine something like the Revenant would certainly appear to lose power over a distance if simply fired on full-auto, but highly-rapid 1-2 shot bursts largely elminate this problem against humanoid targets and thanks to a large clip, this can be kept up for quite a while. Or, in other words, it only performs poorly at medium range if you don't know how to use it properly.

It's no secret the Mattock is an all-purpose weapon that kills quickly - it's the least balanced weapon in the entire game, so that's not really any surprise and not something I was disputing. All I was disputing was this tired old idea that you need to be at point blank to use the Revenant, nothing more.

Fair enough.

If Mass Effect was a multiplayer game then the Mattock would probably have been nerfed to keep the game balanced. But since it's not I think developers can go crazy with powerful guns. I don't think the Revenant is bad, I just think Bioware could haver made it a lot better. The Revenant is fun to use but it takes twice the time to get the job done.. So that's why it's inferior in my eyes. I hope it will have improvements if it's returned in ME3 because the gun is a great design and it has potential.

Modifié par Ty2011, 07 mars 2011 - 10:50 .

[Thompson family]

Re: Original Post

Revenant vs. Mattock simply must be the most debated weapon question on the forum — and one of the most rational and in-detail debates on any ME2 topic, since it's one of the few where the opposing sides haven't become bitter enemies.

Which is all a pretty good sign that there is no one clear definitive answer.

======

1. If you are a decent shot and like to get your squad behind cover and do the shooting yourself, then the Mattock's the gun for you. You need to be careful of big enemies, like Krogan, that get in close. You also have to beware swarming enemies like husks. Basically, the key consideration is: How likely am I to get in a situation where I can't kill my enemy/enemies in one clip of Mattock ammo and get killed while reloading? You'll be fine, even on Insanity, most of the time. with a Mattock. Practice switching between weapons quickly so you can shotgun a charging Krogan, for instance, and you'll be fine all of the time.

No, soldier class is for those who like to aim.

I really like that quote.

2. If you're a bad shot, the Revenant's reputation as a good "spray and pray" weapon is well earned. But that's not the whole story.

3. I have no experience playing on the Xbox360 or PS3. People I respect have told me on this forum that the option I'm about to give works best on a PC powerful enough to run ME2 smoothly that is also equipped with a good quality gaming mouse.

The real secret to using the Revenant effectively is to fire it in TWO-round bursts or even ONE round shots. You'll look a telegraph operator tapping a key before you're able to do that. This makes the gun quite controllable.

(EDITED P.S.: Obviously, JagerBane makes the same point, which must have been posted while I was writing this. Clearly, we agree on the point.)

The Revenant's aiming reticule is "spacey," but putting the imaginary crosshairs where they need to be doesn't take all that much practice. Headshots really aren't a problem with practice, at least not at ranges in which you wouldn't be at leisure to use a sniper rifle anyway.

The difference is, when something pops up at short range, or is a tough target or a swarm of husks is your problem, the "firehose" option's always available. Even in relatively short bursts, the Revenant is devastating.

=======

There are all sorts of "style of play" issues too.

Modifié par Thompson family, 07 mars 2011 - 11:04 .

[Alamar2078]

termokanden wrote...

It's getting way less credit than it deserves. You hardly see it mentioned anywhere without some mention of how it's overshadowed by the Mattock, which is technically true.

Before the Mattock was there, there were even people arguing that the Vindicator was a better choice.

My point is, I don't think the Revenant ever had much credit around here. It's not an all-powerful supergun, but it's a fun weapon for a Rambo-style soldier.

I think the Revvy got the credit that it was due initially.  I honestly think a ton of folks used & liked it.  If you were a sniper soldier and really wanted to work at extreme distances I could see where the Vindy would have value and that's where discussion came in.   Even as a mixed sniper soldier at one time I still preferred the Revvy for when the bad guys got up close so I could really bring the pain.  To me Revvy was really the only AR for Shep to have.

Now though [in AR] you can have your cake & eat it to with Mattock + Widow.  Widow is great for quick 1 shot kills at distance.   If someone gets too close a Mattock can dump a lot of rounds into someone's head very quickly so it's a great get out of trouble sort of weapon.

Now Revvy seems relegated to more of a playstyle choice as opposed to the "you must have it".

[termokanden]

I seem to remember some people pointing out that the Vindicator actually had amazing DPS and so you wouldn't ever gain anything by picking up the Revenant.

[Alamar2078]

Thompson family wrote...

<snip>

======

1. If you are a decent shot and like to get your squad behind cover and do the shooting yourself, then the Mattock's the gun for you. You need to be careful of big enemies, like Krogan, that get in close. You also have to beware swarming enemies like husks. Basically, the key consideration is: How likely am I to get in a situation where I can't kill my enemy/enemies in one clip of Mattock ammo and get killed while reloading? You'll be fine, even on Insanity, most of the time. with a Mattock. Practice switching between weapons quickly so you can shotgun a charging Krogan, for instance, and you'll be fine all of the time.

<snip>

Because of level design you'll rarely have to deal with the weaknesses of the Mattock.  Husk heavy levels usually have ammo stacked everywhere.  Grunt's loyal mission doesn't have as much ammo around but it's plentiful enough.   Charging Krogan [usually] walk so slowly that you have multiple ARs to deal with them so as long as you knock down their protections at range they're as good as dead ... you just have to do cleanup work.

It is [IMHO] wise that if you use the Mattock that you get complimentary weapons such as the Widow, Geth Shotgun [or Evi], and a Phalanx [or Carnifex].  Switching between weaons is recommended esp. if you don't want to waste a Widow round or have the battle in control and would prefer to conserve ammo on the main weapons.

3. I have no experience playing on the Xbox360 or PS3. People I respect have told me on this forum that the option I'm about to give works best on a PC powerful enough to run ME2 smoothly that is also equipped with a good quality gaming mouse.

I play exclusively on the XBox myself.  You don't have even close to the fine level of control that you would with a PC [duh].  You can still use your advice to maximize the distance that the Revvy is useable and get enough damage even on the XBox.  A burst of a few rounds is easy enough to do and the recoil is manageable.

If a person has issues managing the above switching to the Viper / Carnifex for longer range work seems reasonable to me.

********************************************************

It seems counter to the general advice but I find the Mattock BETTER at handling Husk swarms on the levels where vast quantities of ammos regenerate with each new wave of Husks [I.E. Reaper IFF].  With AR it shouldn't be any trouble to kill a couple and maybe strip armor from another.  A Pull from Jacob or a CB by Grunt should instakill the armor stripped Husk.  When you're reloading between AR waves you can do a better job of managing your team, powers, etc.

With the Revvy I just kept on shooting and it made the level harder because I wasn't using the powers of my teammates ; wasn't positioning properly ; etc.

[Alamar2078]

termokanden wrote...

I seem to remember some people pointing out that the Vindicator actually had amazing DPS and so you wouldn't ever gain anything by picking up the Revenant.

I remember people claiming that but in my hands the Revvy beat Vindy by a mile.  You skill & milage may vary

[termokanden]

I never did a real comparison myself, but as you can see from my posts here I prefer the Revenant in any case.

[JaegerBane]

Ty2011 wrote...
Fair enough.

If Mass Effect was a multiplayer game then the Mattock would probably have been nerfed to keep the game balanced. But since it's not I think developers can go crazy with powerful guns. I don't think the Revenant is bad, I just think Bioware could haver made it a lot better. The Revenant is fun to use but it takes twice the time to get the job done.. So that's why it's inferior in my eyes. I hope it will have improvements if it's returned in ME3 because the gun is a great design and it has potential.

The problem with 'going crazy with powerful guns' means that all the work the developers put in to diversifying the arsenal has effectively been a waste of time - if this is the approach they want to take then they might as well go back to ME1's arsenal, as it basically means there are less viable choices.

Personally I dislike the Mattock because it essentially smothered the balance that existed in the assault rifles - previously there was the option of going for precision with the Vindicator or raw power with the Revenant, but the Mattock not only eclipsed both of them but also rendered the majority of ME2's arsenal useless. No matter how you slice it, that was a poor choice on the developer's part.

I agree the whole Collector ship choice puts an undue pressure on the weapon choice, meaning it's easy to ruin the balance in the arsenal. You're not just picking the Revenant at the expense of the Widow - it's also at the expense of the Mattock too. The concept was poorly done and never made much sense anyway (why did finding out about the Collectors suddenly give Shep the ability to wield a new weapon?).

I hope Bioware a lot more liberal with the weapons in ME3 - if they're going to make these Tier 3 weapons then they need to be clearly superior to anything else in their class (e.g. the widow) rather than simply be an alternative. They also need to figure out what they want to do with each weapon class.

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

I seem to remember some people pointing out that the Vindicator actually had amazing DPS and so you wouldn't ever gain anything by picking up the Revenant.

I remember discussions about the Vindicator vs Revenant. They generally centred on playstyle. Back then, however, the ME2 arsenal was actually balanced

[Thompson family]

The key comment on this thread and others like it is this one: The choice here isn't between the Revenant and the Mattock. It's between the Revenant/Viper combo and the Mattock/Widow one.

The choice for me isn't made completely by the stats or by playstyle. The choice is made, in part, by the fact that my Shep is just a regular man in a lot of ways. He just proves to have the inner strength to do extraordinary things. For instance, he's a fit, well-trained soldier but still just a soldier -- no special talents and such.

How is that relevant to this discussion? He doesn't get to use "super weapons." He doesn't use a Claymore because it would break his arm. There's nothing "special" that allows him to ignore the same considerations any human in his position would have. In theory, anybody can do the things he does. The difference is, he's the one who can actually do it. His only special qualification is that he never, never, never gives up. He doesn't tell the Council to buzz off. He never lets the real goal -- to stop the Reapers, get out of his sight. He doesn't lose his temper or his mind.

As the in-game description says: "The Widow was never designed to be carried and fired by a human. Although this modified model can be carried, no ordinary human could fire it without shattering an arm."

Yes, I know there are health and physical upgrades Shep gets in the course of the game that would, in theory, allow him to use the Widow or the Claymore. Still, it's a role-playing thing.

[JRKnight]

Thompson family wrote...
3. I have no experience playing on the Xbox360 or PS3. People I respect have told me on this forum that the option I'm about to give works best on a PC powerful enough to run ME2 smoothly that is also equipped with a good quality gaming mouse.

The real secret to using the Revenant effectively is to fire it in TWO-round bursts or even ONE round shots. You'll look a telegraph operator tapping a key before you're able to do that. This makes the gun quite controllable.

Right, well not all of us can afford a five thousand dollar AlienWare gaming computer.  I'm just saying.   Besides, I'm alot better Xbox 360 player then I am PC player.

Anyways, I've actually been using a technique similar to this for the past year with most of the automatic and semiautomatic weapons, not just the Revenant.  One of the reasons why I like having an actual trigger is because trigger control is much more natural.  Obviously.
Its nothing special, its really pretty simple once you think about it.  And I'm kind of sure I'm not the only one who does this.  When shooting a full automatic like the M76.  I move the trigger back a bit to a point just before it causes the weapon to fire and I keep going back to that point the whole time I'm shooting, burst firing or not.  Doing this makes working the RT trigger easier.  This allows the player to 1R burst or 2R burst quickly and keep up a high firing rate without going full auto on a target that's at range.  Everything else just comes down to the player and their personal shooting skills and ability to aim.

Modifié par JRKnight, 09 mars 2011 - 08:19 .

[J0HNL3I]

the mattock is like a sniper without a scope, the revenant is a awsome maga powerful avenger assault rifle, it just are you long range (mattock) or medium (revenant). personally i LOVE the revenant, just put incendiary ammo and the suicide mission is 10x easier

Modifié par J0HNL3I, 09 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Why not use both? For my Vanguard I love using the Mattock for most missions, but take the Revenant with me for missions against Husks. Combining the huge rate of fire with cryo ammo makes short work of those buggers. Oh and Vanguard charge + Revenant = awesome. :-D

[AgentSquishy]

haha, my response is based around being lazy. i don't like picking up lots of ammo, so mattock and widow make me angry. but then again they are tempting

[AdmiralCheez]

Well, guys, thanks to the feedback I got here suggesting I test things out for myself, I decided to try out the Revenant. The extra ammo is a blessing, and the lack of accuracy can be balanced by pulsing the trigger/riding adrenaline rush. I still love the Mattock and will definitely be using for my adept and non-Claymore vanguard, but as of now there is much, much daka to be had.

[Renegade133]

i use both i prefer the rev when im versing Ymir's due to the amount of rounds