74 réponses à ce sujet

[SalsaDMA]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Some sommon asumptions are being aired here I see.

1: heatsinks should be transferable between weapons
- Why?

[...]

2: Heatsinks should be re-usable
Again, why?

[...]

3: You should be able to fire a weapon if there are no heatsinks
Um... Yeah... I'm sure people would enjoy having their weapon blow up in the hands because they forgot to check the ammo counter,

[...]

Or to put it short: With the info given there is nothing wrong lorewise with how it works and there is nothing to argue for either way or the other of random peoples suggestions as being 'the right one'. the only 'right one' is what the writers at Bioware come up with, as they control the lore behind it.

1. Because a standard always dominates in the end. If the weapons are as everyday as they are, it only makes sense.

2. I have no idea what they intended, but thermal clip shouldn't be the same as heat sink. Clip holds the charge, but the sink radiates it. The latter would hold lesser charge, but don't ever really run out. Again, only makes sense. Also, it came to me that ME1 already had some sort of weapon damage mechanic when the weapon got stuck in overheat mode. They call it a bug, but I refuse to believe that something this obvious was left hanging. Don't link me to dev posts, I just don't believe that (yes, I know it goes away after loading a save)

3. Change heat clip to a sink... done! Only makes sense. Also, see #2.

1. You're asuming that it is physically possible. That may not be the case, depending on how they are built. The bits of knowledge we can gather so far about them certainly gives credence to the belief that transfering sinks from weapon to weapon might be as 'complicated' as transfering water from one waterpistol to another without shooting. Not the easiest thing to do most would prob agree, and certainly not in the middle of a firefight.

2. Clips are anologous to a magazine while the sinks are anologous to rounds. Difference being that the exact quantity of heatsink material used per weapon varies. Ie. While weapon A might use X amount of heatsink material from a clip, weapon B would use X+Y amount of heatsink material. This lets us deduce that heatsinks are not a fixed quantity when 'used' in a weapon, but something that is far more adaptable than just having a fixed number of 'fit all heatrounds'.

3. One of the dangers of overheating a weapon is damaging the weapon beyond repair. I guess some people could live with such a drawback if that single shot meant the difference between life and death. However, another drawback is that you run a high risk of either a violent decomposition of some of the parts (including the ammo, if you are using specialty ammo) or that the decomposition becomes hazardous by nature to be close to (degree burns on the user just from having fired that shot). Some weapondesigns in modern days have been discarded because the heatissue couldn't be dealt with proper and the weapons in question could turn into being as hazardous to the user as the target. There is no reason to believe that engineers should suddenly find it a 'good idea' to suddenly let the weapon be a safety hazard to the user if they can avoid it. And avoiding it is in this case done by incorporating a 'no fire possible' trigger when a cpu on the gun predicts the shot would heat the weapon to a critical level. Considered the amount of electronics and delicate mechanics invovled in ME weapons, I can't imagine any engineer wanting to risk destroying these by letting the gun fry the design and subsequently be even more hazardous because the first shot might have fried some safety precautions that should prevent a second shot which could kill the user.

Ofc, in regards to engineering and ME weapons, I'm still wondering how they made reliable weapons that theoretically should be able to receive the 'normal' punishment of a field weapon being used while being as mechanically delicate with folding mechanisms and electronics which ME weapons are. I can imagine cleaning those things in the armory after a mission would be nightmare...

[cachx]

Christina norman said on this very forums that they tested an "hybrid system" and they were unhappy with the results.

Cant bother to look the exact link as I'm a work right now.

[JKoopman]

cachx wrote...

Christina norman said on this very forums that they tested an "hybrid system" and they were unhappy with the results.

Cant bother to look the exact link as I'm a work right now.

That Christina Norman said that they weren't "happy" with a hybrid system does not necessarilly mean that we, the players, would be unhappy with it as well; only that a hybrid system wasn't in keeping with their "new vision" for Mass Effect (which has been stated multiple times as being "make ME more like traditional shooters").

It was also a decision made before over a year of controversy and rehetoric on this forum indicated how much many in the fanbase despise the thermal clip system being forced on us, so I'd hope that BioWare doesn't consider the system they settled with to be the optimal solution.

[jamesp81]

I don't know why people get so worked about this. I play the game for the story experience. Whatever combat system they use is fine with me, as long as it's reasonable.

[DinoCrisisFan]

Yes

[Xerxes52]

I would have been fine if weapons rapidly replenished their ammo outside of combat encounters.

[diskoh]

They were pretty accepted already.

[Praetor Knight]

Xerxes52 wrote...

I would have been fine if weapons rapidly replenished their ammo outside of combat encounters.

And we get a taste of that on the suicide siege, noticable with the eight Valves segment in the SM.

That just should be there for the entire game.

[Xerxes52]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Xerxes52 wrote...

I would have been fine if weapons rapidly replenished their ammo outside of combat encounters.

And we get a taste of that on the suicide siege, noticable with the eight Valves segment in the SM.

That just should be there for the entire game.

Hmmmm, I don't think I've ever noticed that. I need to check that out once I do another playthrough.

[F00lishG]

when I'm down to one bullet, I tend to think of blowing my head off. In Insanity Mode that idea comes up alot. A hybrid system would be great.

[Lotion Soronarr]

heats sinks make the game more believalbe...and make the battles more dynamic, requireing more thought.

[Lumikki]

JKoopman wrote...

cachx wrote...

Christina norman said on this very forums that they tested an "hybrid system" and they were unhappy with the results.

Cant bother to look the exact link as I'm a work right now.

That Christina Norman said that they weren't "happy" with a hybrid system does not necessarilly mean that we, the players, would be unhappy with it as well; only that a hybrid system wasn't in keeping with their "new vision" for Mass Effect (which has been stated multiple times as being "make ME more like traditional shooters").

It was also a decision made before over a year of controversy and rehetoric on this forum indicated how much many in the fanbase despise the thermal clip system being forced on us, so I'd hope that BioWare doesn't consider the system they settled with to be the optimal solution.

Actually I think Christina Norman is right. It's not because hybrid would not be possible, but because it would make weapon based gameplay booring. It's pretty easy to understand if you think little about it.

Why you did go to cover, why not stay in open area?
Why are you still in cover, why not come to open area?
Why did you come open area and not stay in cover?

Think about these question as view point of weak or strong player character (more defence wise) as how it would affect the situations in different systems.

Modifié par Lumikki, 03 mars 2011 - 11:14 .

[JKoopman]

Lumikki wrote...

Why you did go to cover, why not stay in open area?

Because I don't want to get shot and die.

Lumikki wrote...

Why are you still in cover, why not come to open area?

Because, again, I don't want to get shot and die.

Lumikki wrote...

Why did you come open area and not stay in cover?

Because I want a more advantageous position from which to attack or flank my enemies who also are behind cover because they don't want to get shot and die.

None of those require limited ammo as an encouragement in any way. Real soldiers enter and leave cover during the course of engagements all the time to flank enemies and find better firing positions without scavenging for more ammo being a consideration.

Modifié par JKoopman, 03 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[Ahglock]

Lumikki wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

cachx wrote...

Christina norman said on this very forums that they tested an "hybrid system" and they were unhappy with the results.

Cant bother to look the exact link as I'm a work right now.

That Christina Norman said that they weren't "happy" with a hybrid system does not necessarilly mean that we, the players, would be unhappy with it as well; only that a hybrid system wasn't in keeping with their "new vision" for Mass Effect (which has been stated multiple times as being "make ME more like traditional shooters").

It was also a decision made before over a year of controversy and rehetoric on this forum indicated how much many in the fanbase despise the thermal clip system being forced on us, so I'd hope that BioWare doesn't consider the system they settled with to be the optimal solution.

Actually I think Christina Norman is right. It's not because hybrid would not be possible, but because it would make weapon based gameplay booring. It's pretty easy to understand if you think little about it.

Why you did go to cover, why not stay in open area?
Why are you still in cover, why not come to open area?
Why did you come open area and not stay in cover?

Think about these question as view point of weak or strong player character (more defence wise) as how it would affect the situations in different systems.

Ammo never comes into my consideration for what I am going to do since you have so much I never come close to running out.  I go into cover because my shields are down, I stay in cover because they are stil down, I come out because they are back up and I have some movement, shooting, power usage etc to do.  Same thing for the arguemnt some use about ammo making sure you don't  just using one weapon.  I don't switch weapons because of ammo, I go to them because of their defense system.  Pistols/rifles good vs armor and smg/shotguns good vs shields/barriers.  Ammo added absolutley nothing to my gameplay.  It didn't really hurt my gameplay either, if really had no effect at all.  Now others might suck hard enough where it comes into play, but you'd have to suck really hard to be a worse shot than me. 

About the only thing it effected was the lore to me.  Not huge, tech can change, it was just done kind of poorly.  I think they could have done a better job of merging game play needs of having ammo on all levels to how the lore describes clips coming to be.  Heck just the omni-gel into clips thing would have done it since they can say you are breaking down collector/lost area guns down.  You woudn't even need to change how much ammo is found. 

Also as a general rule I am not sure I support the idea of forcing play styles.  If someone wants to play super sniper squad and just use the widow, hey good for them if that makes the game fun for them.   You can pretty much do that as is as long as you don't massivey suck at shooting, because I can do it. Though honeslty it got boring for me, never really liked snipers, more of a shotgun guy. 

[Hunter-Wolf]

I think best Ammo System is to combine a ME1 and ME2 systems in a hybrid system .. you fire constantly like in ME1 with overheating meter .. if you overheat .. you can choose to wait for heat to dissipate like ME1 or eject it forcefully using a heat-sink clip like in ME2 .. so when you run out of heat sinks you can still fire your weapon .. but you will have to wait for few seconds if you overheat.

I find this the most logical system lore wise and gameplay wise .. i'll really be disappointed if they didn't implement something like that in ME3.

[Liou]

Yes. That's actually a nice idea.

[Pwener2313]

I have never ran out of ammo. Even as a soldier in Insanity.

[Rawke]

JKoopman wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Why you did go to cover, why not stay in open area?

Because I don't want to get shot and die.

Lumikki wrote...

Why are you still in cover, why not come to open area?

Because, again, I don't want to get shot and die.

Lumikki wrote...

Why did you come open area and not stay in cover?

Because I want a more advantageous position from which to attack or flank my enemies who also are behind cover because they don't want to get shot and die.

None of those require limited ammo as an encouragement in any way. Real soldiers enter and leave cover during the course of engagements all the time to flank enemies and find better firing positions without scavenging for more ammo being a consideration.

The only reason real soldiers don't have to scavenge for ammo is that in real life, there is no armour- or shieldbar. One shot may be all it takes, not to mention the mechanics of surpressing fire, fleeing enmies etc. etc. etc. that don't apply to Mass Effect (or any shooter-based game).

I support the thermal clips. With unlimited ammo you are tempted to just sit as far away as possible in cover and hammer away at the enemy because you don't have to bother with going up close and get as many hits as possible. Think about it; with the only thing restriction to your ability to maintain a certain ROF being overheating, the worst case scenario is that you have to wait a few seconds till you can cover your enemy in shots and until he eventually dies. If you have to watch your ammo counter, you are forced to move closer to the enemy and kill him with only a few shots.

EDIT:

I have never ran out of ammo. Even as a soldier in Insanity.

Same here, even on higher difficulties, careful aim and the right weapon and ammo should get you through most combats without running out of ammo.

Modifié par Rawke, 05 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[JKoopman]

Rawke wrote...

The only reason real soldiers don't have to scavenge for ammo is that in real life, there is no armour- or shieldbar. One shot may be all it takes, not to mention the mechanics of surpressing fire, fleeing enmies etc. etc. etc. that don't apply to Mass Effect (or any shooter-based game).

I support the thermal clips. With unlimited ammo you are tempted to just sit as far away as possible in cover and hammer away at the enemy because you don't have to bother with going up close and get as many hits as possible. Think about it; with the only thing restriction to your ability to maintain a certain ROF being overheating, the worst case scenario is that you have to wait a few seconds till you can cover your enemy in shots and until he eventually dies. If you have to watch your ammo counter, you are forced to move closer to the enemy and kill him with only a few shots.

1) The whole issue would be easily solved by simply giving enemies recharging shields like Shepard and co. have. Then you couldn't just "sit back and kill them with mosquito bites" because you'd be forced to dispatch your enemies quickly and efficiently lest their shields simply recharge while you wait for your weapon to cool.

2) ME2 doesn't even prevent this anyway. I can easily sit back in cover and pick off enemies with my Locust SMG at my leisure and never worry about running out of ammo in any singular engagement unless I'm intentionally wasteful with my shots.

Again, there's nothing that the thermal clip system adds to the game that simple survival and the rock-paper-scissors armor mechanic doesn't add anyway (eg: not standing around out of cover playing Rambo and encouraging you to switch weapons to fit each individual engagement). Thermal clips are there for no other reason than because BioWare wanted a system that was more familiar to shooter fans and because they wanted the "visceral stimulus" of a reload animation/sound. Period.

[Praetor Knight]

At this point, I wonder what the folks @ Bioware want for ME3, but tougher enemies are welcome, nevertheless.

[Gatt9]

Lumikki wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

cachx wrote...

Christina norman said on this very forums that they tested an "hybrid system" and they were unhappy with the results.

Cant bother to look the exact link as I'm a work right now.

That Christina Norman said that they weren't "happy" with a hybrid system does not necessarilly mean that we, the players, would be unhappy with it as well; only that a hybrid system wasn't in keeping with their "new vision" for Mass Effect (which has been stated multiple times as being "make ME more like traditional shooters").

It was also a decision made before over a year of controversy and rehetoric on this forum indicated how much many in the fanbase despise the thermal clip system being forced on us, so I'd hope that BioWare doesn't consider the system they settled with to be the optimal solution.

Actually I think Christina Norman is right. It's not because hybrid would not be possible, but because it would make weapon based gameplay booring. It's pretty easy to understand if you think little about it.

Why you did go to cover, why not stay in open area?
Why are you still in cover, why not come to open area?
Why did you come open area and not stay in cover?

Think about these question as view point of weak or strong player character (more defence wise) as how it would affect the situations in different systems.

It really isn't easy to understand.  If you read through her interviews all she talks about is "Shooter shooter shooter",  with little regard to RPG.  Her clear intent was to make a Shooter.  She very clearly wants to make shooters,  not RPGs.

Nor would it make "Weapon based gameplay boring".  First,  that whole sentence is really wrong when discussing an RPG.  Second,  it completely misses the point of ammo in a Shooter.  Ammo in a shooter is meant to be limited in order to increase the frenetic adrenaline based gameplay found in those titles by forcing you to make careful shots.  Without that design intent,  it's essentially pointless.

If ammo isn't limited in availability,  then all it serves to do is interrupt the flow of the game for aesthetic reasons.  If I've endless ammo,  then my only real choice is "What weapon hits hardest?".There's no reason for me to ever switch weapons,  use the hardest hitting at all times.  If all weapons use the same ammo,  then my only decision is the same.

Christina really wants to just make shooters,  that's all she talked about and all she did with ME2.  I'm really confused why she took a job at an RPG studio if she doesn't want to make RPGs.  Personally,  I like sports cars,  so I'd never take a job at Jeep designing cars and then try and turn the product line into Mustangs.  Not real sure why she thinks thats such a good idea.

Cover btw has absolutely nothing to do with ammunition.

[cpt. awsome]

am i the only one who though thermal clips where a good idea ? every weapon uses some kind of resource. since the ME weapons use a system that creates a ****load of heat without somekind of way to ditch that heat the weapon would be dangerous to the carrier. having your weapon heat up every 2 mins for a long period could easely damage its componants (especially any electronics or chips) using a heatsink clip to store the heat in is the best option. it saves the weapon from beeing overheated and mallfunction. as for beeing able to recollect the thermal clips again: the thing is glowing hot and will likely take some time to cool down. in a combat situation your not just gonna sit there getting shot at waiting for the clip to cool down to re-use it.

and besides infinite ammo is weak for gameplay. in ME1 i barely switched weapon at a certain point. in ME2 i used every weapon equaly as much,makes u use your sqaud allot more aswell if only to save ammo.

[JKoopman]

cpt. awsome wrote...

am i the only one who though thermal clips where a good idea ? every weapon uses some kind of resource. since the ME weapons use a system that creates a ****load of heat without somekind of way to ditch that heat the weapon would be dangerous to the carrier. having your weapon heat up every 2 mins for a long period could easely damage its componants (especially any electronics or chips) using a heatsink clip to store the heat in is the best option. it saves the weapon from beeing overheated and mallfunction. as for beeing able to recollect the thermal clips again: the thing is glowing hot and will likely take some time to cool down. in a combat situation your not just gonna sit there getting shot at waiting for the clip to cool down to re-use it.

This is where I would repeat my idea for an internal revolving cylinder of heatsinks ala this proposed system where you could cycle to a fresh heatsink while the used one(s) cooled down. Making thermal clips disposable, ejectable and non-recyclable was about the most colossally stupid move weapons designers could've made in the Mass Effect universe (it basically adds nothing to the previous system but a rather hefty logistics requirement that didn't exist before), especially in light of the system that came before it and how this new system was supposed to be some kind of improvement.

cpt. awsome wrote...

and besides infinite ammo is weak for gameplay. in ME1 i barely switched weapon at a certain point. in ME2 i used every weapon equaly as much,makes u use your sqaud allot more aswell if only to save ammo.

ME1 also had weapon proficiencies like most RPGs. Was it having "unlimited" ammo that kept you from switching weapons, or was it the fact that most of your weapon skill points were in a select few of your weapons?

Fantasy RPGs like Dragon Age have weapon proficiencies as well. Often, players will specialize in a single weapon type (ie: two-handed swords or bows) and use nothing but that one weapon type for the entirety of the game. I don't know of anyone who considers that "weak for gameplay" and complains that they should be using everything from sword & board to two-handed axes to daggers to magic staves all on the same character, so why should a sci-fi RPG be different?

Mass Effect IS an RPG, remember (although it's becoming increasingly more difficult to recognize it as such). The focus of RPGs is supposed to be story, character-building and stat development, NOT blasting enemies with a variety of unique weapons. That's what shooters focus on. If a shooter is what BioWare wants to make, that's all well and good, but if that's the case then they need to stop pitching Mass Effect as an RPG and advertise it for what it is.

Modifié par JKoopman, 05 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[Bloggers99]

cpt. awsome wrote...

am i the only one who though thermal clips where a good idea ?

I love them, it makes combat pacing a lot better and an infinite ammo widow would make the infiltrator too boring. I have absolutely no problem with them.