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[expanding panic]

 It seems to me on this forum there are a lot of Geth committing genocide against the Quarians threads and a lot of people get into discussions on wether or not it was genocide or not. In the 2 games (which is all I know about the Mass Effect universe, I don't read the comics) I believe the "genocide" term was never placed on what happened to the Quarians. I believe that was put on by all of us.

Meanwhile what the Salarians did to the Krogans (which Shepherd call genocide in Mordin's loyalty mission, and which Mordin states it is not genocide) is rarely talked about. I seen there were a few threads on this topic but not many and even less had more then 10 posts. 

So my question is why do people seem to talk more about the Quarians then the Krogans. Is it because of Tali? Or that the geth did what they did during war and the salarian's kind of did it on the down low? or perhaps people feel the Krogans deserved it while the Quarians did not. And if that is the reason I would have to disagree because I think they both would have deserved it. So any ideas?

[jamesp81]

I think the Geth were guilty of genocide.....but then again, the Quarians tried it first on them. So both sides there have their hands dirty.

That situation is very different than the Krogan situation. The Krogan never attempted genocide. It can also be debated whether the genophage is genocidal or not, although I would contend, personally, that it is. I think one reason the genophage isn't examined as much is one of convenience and fear: everyone KNOWS what will happen if the genophage fails and the Krogan reproduce unchecked. As crappy as the genophage is, I don't see any alternative that doesn't end in Krogan conquest of the galaxy.

A different genophage that didn't involve children dying at birth would be much easier to swallow from a moral standpoint.

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

The Geth did not attempt genocide, they merely fought for survival and fought better. The Quarians did attempt genocide but lost their homeworld when they failed.

The Genophage is not genocide beacuse the Krogan have not been wiped out and are in fact recovering. It was also never designed to wipe out the Krogan, merely slow their reproduction so the the Turians could gain and edge in the war.

Modifié par Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide, 01 mars 2011 - 11:14 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

The Geth did not attempt genocide, they merely fought for survival and fought better. The Quarians did attempt genocide but lost their homeworld when they failed.

Uh, yes they did.

Under what circumstances would a population of billions be reduced to millions in "war for survival" unless one party had the intent to do so? 

Whether the geth saw it as genocide or not doesn't matter, it was. They killed every man, woman and child they could set their flashlights on, and did with damn machine like efficiency. 

I don't care either way, conflict in my fiction is always welcome, but to consider the Morning War as anything other than genocide is simply false.

Also note that the geth intended to leave the quarian homeworld so there are two possibilites:

A) They used WMD and killed those "billions" in one attack, which makes them guilty of genocide. And then left.
It was a conventional war but they continued to slaughter non-combatants after the quarian military was incapacitated, instead of leaving.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 02 mars 2011 - 12:02 .

[jamesp81]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

The Geth did not attempt genocide, they merely fought for survival and fought better. The Quarians did attempt genocide but lost their homeworld when they failed.

Uh, yes they did.

Under what circumstances would a population of billions be reduced to millions in "war for survival" unless one party had the intent to do so? 

Whether the geth saw it as genocide or not doesn't matter, it was. They killed every man, woman and child they could set their flashlights on, and did with damn machine like efficiency. 

I don't care either way, conflict in my fiction is always welcome, but to consider the Morning War as anything other than genocide is simply false.

Also note that the geth intended to leave the quarian homeworld so there are two possibilites:

A) They used WMD and killed those "billions" in one attack, which makes them guilty of genocide. And then left.
It was a conventional war but they continued to slaughter non-combatants after the quarian military was incapacitated, instead of leaving.

There is a third possibility, actually

C) The Quarians continued to fight even after they'd been beaten, necessitating continued warfare on the part of the Geth.

I don't view that one as particularly likely though.  I think both combatants in that war are guilty of attempted genocide.

[swenson]

Honestly, if any genocide was going on in the quarian/geth war, it was quarians attempting genocide of the geth. After that, it seems that the geth were basically fighting just to drive the quarians away from their planets, as it doesn't sound like the geth ever tried to attack the Migrant Fleet.

I agree that both sides were at fault, though. The quarians shouldn't have tried to shut down all the geth once they realized they were sentient, and the geth didn't need to drive the quarians off all of their planets. The quarians are guilty of not wanting to take responsibility for the sentient beings they created, and the geth are guilty of, well, taking things to kind of an extreme. Why couldn't they just have hijacked some ships and left, after all? Or stopped at taking over ONE quarian world, rather than all of them?

[Slayer299]

In regards to the Quarian/Geth both sides went the genocide route; for the Quarians it was when they tried shutting the Geth down en masse. And it's pretty obvious that the Geth returned the actions with the loss of billions by the Quarians. But a percentage of the Quarian losses must be attributed to combatants, civilian collateral damage, famine and disease. More than the 17 million probably fled the Perseus Veil, but that leaves a majority of civilians on Rannoch who were left behind and at the *mercy* of the Geth there.

To the Krogans, I don't see the Genophage as genocide because the Krogan aren't being wiped out of existence or hunted down. The Genopage is keeping the Krogan population stable (or was before Mordin's 2nd spreading of a newer version) from exploding outwards so that their old behaviours (fighting and killing everyone within reach) cannot become prevalent once again. I find it sad for the losses of children through still births, miscarriages and other, but until the Krogan can change there are no other options other than to keep the Genophage in place.

None of my Sheps sees the genophage as anything other than necessary until Wrex's policies start affecting the other clans on a planet-wide basis.

[skcih-deraj]

jamesp81 wrote...

I think the Geth were guilty of genocide.....but then again, the Quarians tried it first on them. So both sides there have their hands dirty.

That situation is very different than the Krogan situation. The Krogan never attempted genocide. It can also be debated whether the genophage is genocidal or not, although I would contend, personally, that it is. I think one reason the genophage isn't examined as much is one of convenience and fear: everyone KNOWS what will happen if the genophage fails and the Krogan reproduce unchecked. As crappy as the genophage is, I don't see any alternative that doesn't end in Krogan conquest of the galaxy.

A different genophage that didn't involve children dying at birth would be much easier to swallow from a moral standpoint.

You don't call Krogan dropping asteroids on planets attempted genecide?   Other than  that I agree with the rest of what you said.

[Zulu_DFA]

Try these threads:

http://social.biowar...index/5861590/3
http://social.biowar...index/5261974/4

In short: the Quarians would have probably been totally destroyed, if the small percentage (supposedly >1%) of them could not flee. The genophage, on the other hand, does not kill anything and was specifically designed to avoid the extermination of the Krogan race.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 mars 2011 - 05:33 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

If I'm picking between devastation impact I'll say the Quarians have it worse they've got like what 10 ships of themselves left?

The Krogan at least have a chance at a cure with Mordin keeping his student's work and even if the Quarians got home yesterday it'll take a few years maybe generations for their immune systems to coup with Rannoch and for them to have truly healthy children so no healthy kid boom for a long time with them

where as if the cure for the genopahage was actually made proper and handed out yesterday the krogans could start having healthy children right off as long as both potential parents receive the cure.

[Slayer299]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Yeah, the Hutu were just fighting to drive the Tutsi's from their lands. It isn't genocide if you kill everybody, it is only genocide if your intent specifically is to wipe them out, right?

Yes, it is. Wiping out a people, whether its Tutsi's or whoever, is still genocide when you are attempting to systematically wipe out the other side without any regard. If you kill off either the majority of or the entire population it's still the same thing when that is your intent.

[Aedan_Cousland]

So my question is why do people seem to talk more about the Quarians then the Krogans. Is it because of Tali?

 
Yes.

The people are who are most vocal in condemning the Geth are usually Talimancers.

Or that the geth did what they did during war and the salarian's kind of did it on the down low? or perhaps people feel the Krogans deserved it while the Quarians did not. And if that is the reason I would have to disagree because I think they both would have deserved it. So any ideas?

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Quarians deserved it, but they did start the Morning War. The Quarians, rather than the Geth, were the aggressors. That, and the Quarians attempted to wipe out the Geth first. The Geth only did what any organic species would have done, which is to fight fiercely for their own survival.

That doesn't mean the Quarians aren't worthy of any sympathy, but they certainly weren't victims in the Morning War. The Quarians are as responsible for their fate as the Geth, if not more so.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 02 mars 2011 - 06:49 .

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

Teh fact is that the Geth did not attempt genocide nor did they succeed. They merely fought agaisnt attempted genocide. Yes,they took it too extremes after it was clear they would win. But what would you do? A newly sentient being in a galaxy you have no understanding of, and one of your first experiences is an attempt to wipe your species from existence.

The Geth ARE guilty of war crimes but not of genocide. The Quarians are guilty of attempted genocide. Clear difference.

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Teh fact is that the Geth did not attempt genocide nor did they succeed. They merely fought agaisnt attempted genocide.

So what happend to the billions of quarians who were alive before the war then? How come the only quarians who survived were those who managed to escape in time?

Well they were killed? They were fighting a war and lost, the clever ones left, the Geth then wiped out the remaining Quarians. This makes them guilty of war crimes. However, as they didn't start the war or their existence looking to wipe out their creators and nor did they, the Geth are not guilty of genocide.
If they wanted to kill all the Quarians surely they would have pursued the Migrant Fleet as they escaped the ruins of thier civilisation? Or would have ventured beyond the Perseus Veil to continue this supposed "genocide"?

As it stands they did not. Therefore, the Geth are guilty of war crimes, not genocide.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

The qurains created a collective life forum capable of independent thought beat them down, enslaved them until they had to resist, I'm a renegade but talus hate for the geth pisses me off, what they did too the geth on world and what tali's father did with the geth on tali's loyalty mission was wrong the quarians don't deserve too wear thoses suits and float on space for hundreds of years but they don't deserve too have there home world back it's the gets now and the main geth collective knows there bounds but I think the krogan genophage was right they have too many primitive ideas and there ideals about the weak and there brute warrior attitudes make the a danger. too the galaxy most Okeer thinks it was bad only because it made the krogans softer for coddling there young I agreed with mordin.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Sorry for the typos damn iPhone spell correct!

[Whatever42]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Teh fact is that the Geth did not attempt genocide nor did they succeed. They merely fought agaisnt attempted genocide.

So what happend to the billions of quarians who were alive before the war then? How come the only quarians who survived were those who managed to escape in time?

Well they were killed? They were fighting a war and lost, the clever ones left, the Geth then wiped out the remaining Quarians. This makes them guilty of war crimes. However, as they didn't start the war or their existence looking to wipe out their creators and nor did they, the Geth are not guilty of genocide.
If they wanted to kill all the Quarians surely they would have pursued the Migrant Fleet as they escaped the ruins of thier civilisation? Or would have ventured beyond the Perseus Veil to continue this supposed "genocide"?

As it stands they did not. Therefore, the Geth are guilty of war crimes, not genocide.

All the Quarians were combatants and were attempting to kill Geth? There were not Quarian children who posed no threat whatsoever? Little baby Quarians armed with plasma rattles and soothers were out there fighting Geth?

The Geth clearly deliberately tried to exteriminate the Quarians. It was attempted genocide. That they didn't completely suceed doesn't refute that. And that the Quarians tried to do the same thing to the Geth doesn't excuse it.

[apotheosic]

jamesp81 wrote...
The Krogan never attempted genocide.

Do we so easily forget the Rachni? Not just attempted genocide, damn well SUCCESFUL genocide.

Anyway, the genophage is not genocide, it is simply a control set in place in hopes that the Krogans could recover culturally from having advanced technology introduced into their society long before they developed it.

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

All the Quarians were combatants and were attempting to kill Geth? There were not Quarian children who posed no threat whatsoever? Little baby Quarians armed with plasma rattles and soothers were out there fighting Geth?

The Geth clearly deliberately tried to exteriminate the Quarians. It was attempted genocide. That they didn't completely suceed doesn't refute that. And that the Quarians tried to do the same thing to the Geth doesn't excuse it.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, such as genocide.

Yes, genocide is a war crime. But the Geth are not guilty of it. The Geth war machine has been shown to be an efficient and relentless force, much like the Geth themselves.

Now, if the Geth were truly trying to exterminate the Quarians would they have let millions escape after they had decimated all resistance? There was nothing stopping them, it would have been quick and easy. However, they effectively let the Quarians escape, they had secured the survival of their fledgling species and needed to do no more.

The fact that they went to extremes with the worlds they captured in terms of the civilian populace makes the Geth guilty of war crimes which is in-excusable, but they were in a position to commit genocide and wipe the Quarians from the galaxy. They did not take this opportunity so this alone shows that the Geth were fighting for survival and in the confusion that being newly sentient brings, went to extremes and commited war crimes.

The Geth have never been shown to leave things half finished, they are machines afterall, so to them genocide would be an all or nothing affair. They did not exterminate the Quarians, so they did not attempt to.

[Wulfram]

The Geth were only a newborn consciousness, attacked for the crime of existing. They appear to have grown since then.

But yes, it was attempted genocide.