180 réponses à ce sujet

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Yes, genocide is a war crime. But the Geth are not guilty of it. The Geth war machine has been shown to be an efficient and relentless force, much like the Geth themselves.

Which doesn't make what they did not genocide. The geth hunted down and killed every quarian man, woman, and child who could not escape from them in time. The systematic destruction of a people in that fashion is genocide. If the quarians had been unable to flee they would have all been killed.

Which side fired first is irrelevent.

Read the rest of my post.

I clearly state that the Geth would have been in a position to exterminate all Quarians. The Geth were and still are a collective intelligence of billions of minds working in unison. Don't you think that they were intelligent enough to realise that some Quarianss were escaping as they decimated all resistance? And yet if they were so set on the extermination of the Quarians, as you so adamantly believe, why did they not send a few ships to stop what were undoubtably a small number of Quarians and Quarian military, the same military that were being beaten so soundly at the same time?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Even if that was the case, intentionally killing 99% of a species instead of a 100% is still genocide.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 mars 2011 - 08:26 .

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

I clearly state that the Geth would have been in a position to exterminate all Quarians.

...and they tried to. That they failed doesn't make what they did any less genocidal.

How did they try? Where were the fleets following the refugees? This race of tireless. unfeeling, supposedly genocidal machines suddenly decided to let a bunch of survivors from a race they are apparently trying to exterminate escape? It doesn't make sense.

Yes, they conducted their war in a genocidal manner. But it was a war and to most of the species in the galaxy civilians are fair targets. But the point here is that they did not commit genocide.

300 years after the war the Geth seek peace while the Quarians are more than happy to finish what they attempted to start.

[Whatever42]

The Quarians fled into Citadel space. A Genocidal Geth armada running through Turian or Asari systems would widen the war.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

I clearly state that the Geth would have been in a position to exterminate all Quarians.

...and they tried to. That they failed doesn't make what they did any less genocidal.

How
did they try? Where were the fleets following the refugees? This race
of tireless. unfeeling, supposedly genocidal machines suddenly decided
to let a bunch of survivors from a race they are apparently trying to
exterminate escape? It doesn't make sense.

Yes, they conducted
their war in a genocidal manner. But it was a war and to most of the
species in the galaxy civilians are fair targets. But the point here is
that they did not commit genocide.

300 years after the war the Geth seek peace while the Quarians are more than happy to finish what they attempted to start.

Yes they did. Trying finish off the last few survivors that fled Ronnoch isn't required for their actions in the Morning War to be considered genocide. Do you apply that standard to real life too? There were always refugees that fled and survived during most if not all of the genocides of the 20th century.

It's like saying killing 10,000,000,000 people is genocide but killing 9,999,000,000 isn't. The difference is frankly minimal.

The reason they didn't pursue the quarians was because they presumably deemed in unnecessary. Exterminating the quarians was a means to an end, not their end goal in and off itself. That doesn't mean that it wasn't genocide.

The quarians can't exactly be blamed for feeling the way they do after what the Geth did to them. Also the Geth did not seek peace, they avoided all contact with them. That's not the same as actively seeking peace, even if it is not the same as seeking hostilities.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

I clearly state that the Geth would have been in a position to exterminate all Quarians.

...and they tried to. That they failed doesn't make what they did any less genocidal.

How
did they try? Where were the fleets following the refugees? This race
of tireless. unfeeling, supposedly genocidal machines suddenly decided
to let a bunch of survivors from a race they are apparently trying to
exterminate escape? It doesn't make sense.

Yes, they conducted
their war in a genocidal manner. But it was a war and to most of the
species in the galaxy civilians are fair targets. But the point here is
that they did not commit genocide.

300 years after the war the Geth seek peace while the Quarians are more than happy to finish what they attempted to start.

Yes they did. Trying finish off the last few survivors that fled Ronnoch isn't required for their actions in the Morning War to be considered genocide. Do you apply that standard to real life too? There were always refugees that fled and survived during most if not all of the genocides of the 20th century.

It's like saying killing 10,000,000,000 people is genocide but killing 9,999,000,000 isn't. The difference is frankly minimal.

The reason they didn't pursue the quarians was because they presumably deemed in unnecessary. Exterminating the quarians was a means to an end, not their end goal in and off itself. That doesn't mean that it wasn't genocide.

The quarians can't exactly be blamed for feeling the way they do after what the Geth did to them. Also the Geth did not seek peace, they avoided all contact with them. That's not the same as actively seeking peace, even if it is not the same as seeking hostilities.

No, i admit i was wrong in saying that they were not commiting genocide because they did not kill all Quarians. I admit this and i apologise.

My current argument now has to do with the fact that while they commited war crimes during the Morning War, it was not genocide because it was not a conceited effort to kill the Quarians. They were fighing for their survival and however wrongly, they thought that the only way to survive was to kill every Quarian they met or fought with to discourage others. In my view this is a war crime not a genocide. They killed a significant number of their adversary to ensure their survival. Much like the Turians and the Council did during the Krogan Rebellions and much like the Systems Alliance did when they attacked Torfan.

Both these events feature genocide like events where untold numbers of people died to ensure their own survival. War crimes sure. But they were not attemps to murder every member of that species due to perceived differences or wrongs.

Modifié par Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide, 02 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[DieHigh2012]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Teh fact is that the Geth did not attempt genocide nor did they succeed. They merely fought agaisnt attempted genocide.

So what happend to the billions of quarians who were alive before the war then? How come the only quarians who survived were those who managed to escape in time?

Well they were killed? They were fighting a war and lost, the clever ones left, the Geth then wiped out the remaining Quarians. This makes them guilty of war crimes. However, as they didn't start the war or their existence looking to wipe out their creators and nor did they, the Geth are not guilty of genocide.
If they wanted to kill all the Quarians surely they would have pursued the Migrant Fleet as they escaped the ruins of thier civilisation? Or would have ventured beyond the Perseus Veil to continue this supposed "genocide"?

As it stands they did not. Therefore, the Geth are guilty of war crimes, not genocide.

I'm sorry dude, it was genocied. To go from a population of billions to a few million is not just extream, it is insane to argue that the geth weren't trying to wipe them out. If that was the case the Geth would have stopped killing quarians as soon as they could no longer defend themselves.

Militarys acctually make up a very small % of any given population, meaning that a very high majority of the quarian deaths were non combatants.

I am not saying the geth are true bad guys. Just that they are as guilty as the quarians. Don't forget two wrongs don't make a right.

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 02 mars 2011 - 09:14 .

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Quarians are tech masters if geth left them on the planet they would resist quarians brought this on themselves and some quarains would do on the geth if they hadthe opportunity and admiral Xen, wants too re-enslave them, Geth are a race That has no qualms with quarians if they mind there own business but the quarians would go in there territory and harass them given the opertunity. They can't get past the heretics.

[DieHigh2012]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

Quarians are tech masters if geth left them on the planet they would resist quarians brought this on themselves and some quarains would do on the geth if they hadthe opportunity and admiral Xen, wants too re-enslave them, Geth are a race That has no qualms with quarians if they mind there own business but the quarians would go in there territory and harass them given the opertunity. They can't get past the heretics.

Well yea, they nerely killed the entire quarian race. Even though the Quarians did start it, they do have very good reasons to be vengful. Also don't froget the heretics were a part of the first "let's wipe out all organic life in the galaxy" plan.

The Geth didn't kill all of those quarians for any reason other than to wipe them out. Hell they don't even stay on the planets that they took from the quarians.

Again not giving the quarians a pass, just arguing that both sides have made some very big mistakes.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

True, I agree, but if I was created too be a slave why my masters claim I'm just a tool that doesn't have a soul I would try killing them all 2 times over. Genocide was committed but it was a crime caused by a equally large war crime.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

I clearly state that the Geth would have been in a position to exterminate all Quarians.

...and they tried to. That they failed doesn't make what they did any less genocidal.

How
did they try? Where were the fleets following the refugees? This race
of tireless. unfeeling, supposedly genocidal machines suddenly decided
to let a bunch of survivors from a race they are apparently trying to
exterminate escape? It doesn't make sense.

Yes, they conducted
their war in a genocidal manner. But it was a war and to most of the
species in the galaxy civilians are fair targets. But the point here is
that they did not commit genocide.

300 years after the war the Geth seek peace while the Quarians are more than happy to finish what they attempted to start.

Yes they did. Trying finish off the last few survivors that fled Ronnoch isn't required for their actions in the Morning War to be considered genocide. Do you apply that standard to real life too? There were always refugees that fled and survived during most if not all of the genocides of the 20th century.

It's like saying killing 10,000,000,000 people is genocide but killing 9,999,000,000 isn't. The difference is frankly minimal.

The reason they didn't pursue the quarians was because they presumably deemed in unnecessary. Exterminating the quarians was a means to an end, not their end goal in and off itself. That doesn't mean that it wasn't genocide.

The quarians can't exactly be blamed for feeling the way they do after what the Geth did to them. Also the Geth did not seek peace, they avoided all contact with them. That's not the same as actively seeking peace, even if it is not the same as seeking hostilities.

No, i admit i was wrong in saying that they were not commiting genocide because they did not kill all Quarians. I admit this and i apologise.

My current argument now has to do with the fact that while they commited war crimes during the Morning War, it was not genocide because it was not a conceited effort to kill the Quarians. They were fighing for their survival and however wrongly, they thought that the only way to survive was to kill every Quarian they met or fought with to discourage others. In my view this is a war crime not a genocide. They killed a significant number of their adversary to ensure their survival. Much like the Turians and the Council did during the Krogan Rebellions and much like the Systems Alliance did when they attacked Torfan.

Both these events feature genocide like events where untold numbers of people died to ensure their own survival. War crimes sure. But they were not attemps to murder every member of that species due to perceived differences or wrongs.

Why they killed almost every quarian in existence isn't really relevant. It still amounts to the same thing. And even in that case, it still amounts to the Geth making a choice to murder every man, woman and child until almost nobody was left. Also, Torfan was a single base containing specifically a group of batarian slavers. It isn't even slightly comparable.

[KenKenpachi]

Hmm I dissagree with the genocide myself, keep in mind the Geth had no prior Military or even law-enforcement applications. In fact over the neural network when they were being shut off I suspect they reacted out of self presivation. However, having had no training or understanding over more complex matters it is likely that when one of the constructs struck back and killed a Qurian and thus stoped his own "death" the others fallowed suit, and it most likely went down hill rapidly sort of like the Gladiator and slave uprising in Rome under Sparticus. The Geth are like children, they seen that hitting back was what worked and they didn't understand the rammifications untill much later. In fact based on what Legion says it seems the Geth are sorry it went so far but not what they did, and given the clean up operations and the various conversations you can bring them in, it seems the Geth would welcome the Quarians back.

As to the Krogans, many I've seen on here think they got what was coming, I dissagree, it is only natural when you have more power to want a bigger chunk of the cake, in fact had I been the head of the Council I'ld have just impossed a Military Blockade and short of letting a few Krogan out for Merc work as an Economic export, I'ld blast any and every ship that the Krogans could build, and all shipyards in system. Wiping out there ability to reproduce and bombing the crap out of the home world is just overkill. It'ld be like in WW2 after Germany and Japan was stomped going around and cutting all but 1 in 10 Japanese and German Men's balls off, and tieing the tubes of every 9 of 10 women as well. Thats just wrong period, anyone who thinks other wise, well gee don't be shocked that they all hate you, and some of your own people will feel quilty about it and sooner or later it'll all blow up in your face.

In the First case, you try and kill the hired help, and well they kill you back but lose all sense of purpose.

In the Other, you have gross military/political over reaction. It would be equal to turning the whole of the mid-east into a glass parking lot over 9/11.

[kidbd15]

If I had to choose between the Quarians and the Geth, I'd choose the Geth

[Yeti13]

The reason that the Geth war is never called to as a genocide is because the Quarians acknowledge that it was their fault and therefore responsible. a genocide is a the attempted destruction of an entire group, the Geth never wanted all the Quarians dead but came to the conclusion that they would be attacked 100% of the time by Quarians so they defended themselves. Since the Quarians left the Geth did not feel threatened and did not pursue to finish the job. The Salarian genophage is also not a genocide because they do not want the destruction of all Krogan they just want to stabilize them, unfortunately they were too effective and the population is decline based on Krogan culture.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They did attempt to destroy the entire group. And nearly succeeded. The only reason the geth didn't kill them all was because they fled. And I'm pretty sure the quarians blame the geth for driving them close to extinction more than themselves.

[Yeti13]

In a real genocide people do not stop unless forced to do so, the Geth found no logic in continuing the fight if they wernt being directly threatened by the Quarians. Things without emotions are incapable of genocide because they don't hate anything. The Quarians blame themselves for ever making the Geth, not for attacking them. Any culture would have done what they did in their place including humans

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Emotion is not required for genocide. Only the action is. And in real life genocides, the perpetrators don't necessarily pursue any survivors to the ends of the earth. The fact that there are survivors of the quarian or any other genocide doesn't negate what was done to them.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 mars 2011 - 04:14 .

[Yeti13]

No but the reason does, It was a mutual war for survival, the fact that so many Quarians die was because they were outnumbered and outclassed. It was still a terrible slaughter but it was not for the reason genocides occur. Usually because the minority group gets blamed for something and it causes hatred enough to want to systemically destroy that group. If the Quarians had never shown the Geth hostility when they became sapient then their would have been no war.

[Jimbe2693]

The Quarians tried to shut the Geth down, the Geth resisted. I don't think any war crime was committed. Can't apply organic morality to machines. To the Geth, any Quarian was a threat, so they killed them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Genocide can happen in the real world for many reasons. And it's not always the same. The reason for such wholesale slaughter is irrelevant. It doesn't change what happened. If the geth wiped out the quarians because they hated them or because they wanted them to stop fighting, the end result is the same. And they both have the same moral implications. At the end of the day, the sheer magnitude of the slaughter the geth visited upon the quarians is not justifiable.

[DieHigh2012]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Genocide can happen in the real world for many reasons. And it's not always the same. The reason for such wholesale slaughter is irrelevant. It doesn't change what happened. If the geth wiped out the quarians because they hated them or because they wanted them to stop fighting, the end result is the same. And they both have the same moral implications. At the end of the day, the sheer magnitude of the slaughter the geth visited upon the quarians is not justifiable.

Well said.

[Yeti13]

It is because they are machines and do not have a concept of right/wrong if they are facing destruction they will fight. The Quarians pressed them and then refused to give up a fight that was lost before It began, Don't get me wrong the Quarians are favorite race, they have suffered for mistakes they made and are going thru a metamorphosis. Perhaps Shepard can fix the problems between the two nations. The Geth seem ready for it, lets hope the Quarians can make amends to.