180 réponses à ce sujet

[GordonNoob2010]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

I clearly state that the Geth would have been in a position to exterminate all Quarians.

...and they tried to. That they failed doesn't make what they did any less genocidal.

How
did they try? Where were the fleets following the refugees? This race
of tireless. unfeeling, supposedly genocidal machines suddenly decided
to let a bunch of survivors from a race they are apparently trying to
exterminate escape? It doesn't make sense.

Yes, they conducted
their war in a genocidal manner. But it was a war and to most of the
species in the galaxy civilians are fair targets. But the point here is
that they did not commit genocide.

300 years after the war the Geth seek peace while the Quarians are more than happy to finish what they attempted to start.

Yes they did. Trying finish off the last few survivors that fled Ronnoch isn't required for their actions in the Morning War to be considered genocide. Do you apply that standard to real life too? There were always refugees that fled and survived during most if not all of the genocides of the 20th century.

It's like saying killing 10,000,000,000 people is genocide but killing 9,999,000,000 isn't. The difference is frankly minimal.

The reason they didn't pursue the quarians was because they presumably deemed in unnecessary. Exterminating the quarians was a means to an end, not their end goal in and off itself. That doesn't mean that it wasn't genocide.

The quarians can't exactly be blamed for feeling the way they do after what the Geth did to them. Also the Geth did not seek peace, they avoided all contact with them. That's not the same as actively seeking peace, even if it is not the same as seeking hostilities.

No, i admit i was wrong in saying that they were not commiting genocide because they did not kill all Quarians. I admit this and i apologise.

My current argument now has to do with the fact that while they commited war crimes during the Morning War, it was not genocide because it was not a conceited effort to kill the Quarians. They were fighing for their survival and however wrongly, they thought that the only way to survive was to kill every Quarian they met or fought with to discourage others. In my view this is a war crime not a genocide. They killed a significant number of their adversary to ensure their survival. Much like the Turians and the Council did during the Krogan Rebellions and much like the Systems Alliance did when they attacked Torfan.

Both these events feature genocide like events where untold numbers of people died to ensure their own survival. War crimes sure. But they were not attemps to murder every member of that species due to perceived differences or wrongs.

Why they killed almost every quarian in existence isn't really relevant. It still amounts to the same thing. And even in that case, it still amounts to the Geth making a choice to murder every man, woman and child until almost nobody was left. Also, Torfan was a single base containing specifically a group of batarian slavers. It isn't even slightly comparable.

Everyone seems to have forgotten one fact.
The Geth didn't just kill off every Quarian on the homeworld, but every Quarian on EVERY SINGLE colony world.
The only survivors were the ones on the Migrant Fleet. That didn't happen by accident. That meant that the Geth systematically hunted down every Quarian planet and murdered every single person there. That's commitment to excellence right there.

And to those who argued that the Geth did not commit genocide because they did not destroy the Migrant Fleet, it would have been clear to the Geth that the Quarians would not be able to survive adrift in space. They would not have commited resources to slaughtering the remaining survivors once the Geth forced the Quarians into a doomed position. It would have been illogical. Akin to shooting a mortally wounded man, it would have been a waste of a bullet.

Modifié par GordonNoob2010, 03 mars 2011 - 05:58 .

[kidbd15]

@GordonNood2010 ^ Could you link that information. I was under the impression that every colony already had Geth, and once it was ordered the Geth must be destroyed, the Geth defended themselves, and that's why Quarians in every colony were attacked.

[Praetor Knight]

kidbd15 wrote...

I was under the impression that every colony already had Geth, and once it was ordered the Geth must be destroyed, the Geth defended themselves, and that's why Quarians in every colony were attacked.

Sadly, from what I understand, the Geth's cold logic created a zero-sum game where the only solution they saw was to remove all of the Quarians from their presence on response to the order. So although the Geth were everywhere the Quarians were, the Geth were still brutally efficient and massacred innocents in their so called defense against the Quarian order.



But, with the Reapers most likely watching organic transmissions like the Geth would later do, I sometimes wonder if the Morning War had anything to do with one of them? 

Darn those cuddlefish <_<

[Aedan_Cousland]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They did attempt to destroy the entire group. And nearly succeeded. The only reason the geth didn't kill them all was because they fled. [b]And I'm pretty sure the quarians blame the geth for driving them close to extinction more than themselves.[/b[

Then the Quarians are fools, and a species that doesn't learn from it's mistakes probably deserves to go extinct.

Genocide can happen in the real world for many reasons. And it's not always the same. The reason for such wholesale slaughter is irrelevant. It doesn't change what happened. If the geth wiped out the quarians because they hated them or because they wanted them to stop fighting, the end result is the same. And they both have the same moral implications. At the end of the day, the sheer magnitude of the slaughter the geth visited upon the quarians is not justifiable.

The Quarians first attempted to do the same thing to the Geth. Are the Quarians more deserving of sympathy just because their attempt at xenocide failed?

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 03 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

It appears to me that this whole argument boils down to our own definitions of what constitutes a war crime and a genocide.

To me, a genocide is an effort to kill of another race or species due to percieved racial, idealogical and cultural differences and misconceptions.

To me, a war crime occurs during a war and involves deliberate attacks on civilians, mistreatment of prisoners and extreme methods of controlling captured strongholds and the populace.

We all seem to have differing definitions, but there is mine and that is why i think the Geth are not guilty of genocide, just atrocious war crimes.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They did attempt to destroy the entire group. And nearly succeeded. The only reason the geth didn't kill them all was because they fled. [b]And I'm pretty sure the quarians blame the geth for driving them close to extinction more than themselves.[/b[

Then the Quarians are fools, and a species that doesn't learn from it's mistakes probably deserves to go extinct.

Yes, because it was actually the Quarians who took up guns and killed 99.9+% of the species.

The Quarians first attempted to do the same thing to the Geth. Are the Quarians more deserving of sympathy just because their attempt at xenocide failed?

If you consider the Geth alive at all. as opposed to simply complex VI.

Whether you do or not, it's really indisputable that the geth were malfunctioning machines that were indisputably non-sentient.

[Dean_the_Young]

Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide wrote...

It appears to me that this whole argument boils down to our own definitions of what constitutes a war crime and a genocide.

To me, a genocide is an effort to kill of another race or species due to percieved racial, idealogical and cultural differences and misconceptions.

To me, a war crime occurs during a war and involves deliberate attacks on civilians, mistreatment of prisoners and extreme methods of controlling captured strongholds and the populace.

We all seem to have differing definitions, but there is mine and that is why i think the Geth are not guilty of genocide, just atrocious war crimes.

The two aren't at all mutually exclusive, nor does your own definition disclude genocide. The Geth actions were a war crime AND genocide.

[KenKenpachi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Hmm I dissagree with the genocide myself, keep in mind the Geth had no prior Military or even law-enforcement applications.

Yes they did. They were machines of war as much as they were labor.

You know having looked at the codex I was about to make a comment against this, but having read it all I have to say is....

Wow Quarians are ****ing stupid. I mean really killing a group of people or machines for steping out of line isn't well a good thing, more so when it was a simple question, hell who knows maybe the Geth would have loved just being Soldiers and workers, fullfilling the purpose they were made for. But serriously....what they did amounts to a political group going, gee lets wipe out the Army and Police for questioning us. Yeah thats going to work so well considering they are ARMED. How in the hell could that come as a surprise, serriously. You arm them, play around teaching them, then when they get to smart. Oh **** TURN IT OFF! And...then you ignore the fact you armed them...wow, Anyone care to say ITS A TRAP! Quarians, what were they good for on the home world, just sitting around and apperantly not listening to Admiral Ackbar?

Not ment to be a troll I just..The Geth were learning, they weren't sure of things, then you try and kill them, which is what it amounts too, after you've armed them, thats just stupid. What the Geth did in that case I don't think was so much of well, Genocide tends to be carried out over racial or religious reassons. With the Geth it seems to have went "Quarians wish to kill, us have made no offers for peace, continue operation." Its rather like the Tranqiul in DA, I'm not trying to defend the Geth, but really all of this should have been avoidable and well pretty damn obvious. It seems to be more of a case of the blind leading the blind, and any case it seems the Geth are open to a return of the makers, and do not wish for more bloodshed, or to be slaves. Its up to the Quarians on rather to reach back out with a hand as well or not.

Its much like the Relationship of Isreal And Germany. After the events of the ****'s relations were at the least strained, and the Germans over the years having a wish to own up for past mistakes has led to a very close relationship with the two peoples and Countries.

[Whatever42]

The Quarians didn't realize the Geth were sapient. When your toaster suddenly tries to kill you when you try to unplug it, the first conclusion you reach is probably not that your toaster is sapient. You more than likely think someone really screwed up the programming and design of the toaster.

[UFF139821HC]

Just to add my two cents.
In my opinion, both the Quarians and the Geth were guilty of Genocide, the Quarians tried to exterminate the Geth early on and the Geth acted in kind. Doesn't matter what the justification is, when you start killing noncombatants on an unacceptably large scale that is genocide, like past fog of war and all those other points, when you deliberately set out to kill noncombatants on a massive scale, that is Genocide, succeed or otherwise.
Also on the issue of the Krogan Genophage one and two, Genophage one was justifiable genocide, as was Genophage two, purely because of the violent nature of the Krogan.

[KenKenpachi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

Wow Quarians are ****ing stupid. I mean really killing a group of people or machines for steping out of line isn't well a good thing, more so when it was a simple question, hell who knows maybe the Geth would have loved just being Soldiers and workers, fullfilling the purpose they were made for.

Or they might not have. Where would the quarians be then? They couldn't afford to sit there and allow the geth to make the first move. Far too much was at stake.

Thats like me saying the Mexicans who live in front of me are a threat as more of them keep moving in around me and going out to kill them, rather than hell I don't know getting to know them? Or if in the South when threatend by the North we just went, fine We'll get rid of Slavery, by killing all the slaves cause they might be a threat.

The only moves the Geth seemed to be making was "Why am I here? Can you treat me like you do each other?" thats some civil war **** brewing right there. As to where they would be, well gee give the Geth Cicil rights and intergrate them into society?

[ExistsAlready]

The Geth were like children. A newly formed conciousness trying to come to terms with the world around them, their own existence as "forced" labourers and the fear their creators had for them. The Quarians were worried because what were once tools had started to question their place in the world and came to believe that, eventually, the Geth would decide they no longer had need of their creators. So they attacked first. And the Geth responded in the most logical fashion.

And whatever the circumstances, that ended up as genocide. But just what, exactly, happened is never revealed. The account of the Morning War starts at "The Quarians tried a pre-emptive strike" and ends at "It failed, most of the Quarians wound up dead". Nothing about who provoked who over what. For instance, the Geth destroyed the Ancestor VI databases. Did they do that as a demoralizing tactic or did they do it in response to something done to them?

The Geth commited genocide against the Quarians, much like the Quarians attempted to do to the Geth. That's just how it is. The real question is why the Geth did it. For the past 300 years they've wisely isolated themselves under the firm knowledge that organics and synthetics are too dangerous to interact with each other with current galactic prejudices against AIs. They've left the Migrant Fleet alone despite having more than enough firepower to destroy it and the Quarians always striking at the Geth when they believed they held the upper hand.
The Quarians have gotten themselves too firmly into the "wronged survivors" mentality. There's something they either don't know or won't mention about the whole war that explains it.

Modifié par ExistsAlready, 03 mars 2011 - 05:35 .

[Wulfram]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Quarians didn't realize the Geth were sapient.

Yes they did, that's the whole reason they tried to destroy the Geth

[Aedan_Cousland]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Then the Quarians are fools, and a species that doesn't learn from it's mistakes probably deserves to go extinct.

[b]Yes, because it was actually the Quarians who took up guns[b] and killed 99.9+% of the species.

Actually, yes. The Quarians did attack first and attempt to annihilate the Geth. The difference between the Geth and the Quarians is that the Geth suceeded where the Quarians failed, and the Geth were responding to Quarian aggression.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The Quarians first attempted to do the same thing to the Geth. Are the Quarians more deserving of sympathy just because their attempt at xenocide failed?

If you consider the Geth alive at all. as opposed to simply complex VI.

Whether you do or not, it's really indisputable that the geth were malfunctioning machines that were indisputably non-sentient.

In the real world I don't believe that a true AI is possible. I don't think there ever will be a such thing as a synthetic life form. But in the Mass Effect universe I think is clear that the Geth are as much 'alive' and self-aware as any of the organic species.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 03 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[Whatever42]

Wulfram wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Quarians didn't realize the Geth were sapient.

Yes they did, that's the whole reason they tried to destroy the Geth

No, according to Tali, they feared that the Geth were on their way to becoming sapient. They wanted to shut down the Geth before that occured.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Quarians didn't realize the Geth were sapient.

Yes they did, that's the whole reason they tried to destroy the Geth

No, according to Tali, they feared that the Geth were on their way to becoming sapient. They wanted to shut down the Geth before that occured.

Tali isn't the most reliable source on the Morning War. She's an apologist when it comes to Quarian motives for starting the war, and she tries to make the attempted annihilation of the Geth sound less reprehensible.

The Quarians panicked when their creations started asking if they had souls. That little fact seems to fly in the face of Tali's assertion that the Quarians didn't yet suspect that their creations had become sapient.

[Whatever42]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Quarians didn't realize the Geth were sapient.

Yes they did, that's the whole reason they tried to destroy the Geth

No, according to Tali, they feared that the Geth were on their way to becoming sapient. They wanted to shut down the Geth before that occured.

Tali isn't the most reliable source on the Morning War. She's an apologist when it comes to Quarian motives for starting the war, and she tries to make the attempted annihilation of the Geth sound less reprehensible.

The Quarians panicked when their creations started asking if they had souls. That little fact seems to fly in the face of Tali's assertion that the Quarians didn't yet suspect that their creations had become sapient.

You don't have any contradictory sources, however. Your theory is pure conjecture. Yes, I agree that if the Quarians knew or strongly suspected that the Geth were sapient then they too are guilty of attempted genocide.

Remember, everyone works with VIs all the time and they are very lifelike. Yet, we have no qualms about shutting them down. If a VI acts up, we don't start wondering if its sapient. The Geth were interacting in ways that the Quarian never intended or predicted. They understood what was occuring but didn't understand how far things had gone or how. I think that's completely believable and we have no evidence to the contrary.

On the other hand, we could argue that the Geth weren't fully developed at that point; maybe they weren't even fully sapient at that point. Can a toaster run amok be guilty of genocide? Were the Geth yet evolved enough to make moral choices?

[ExistsAlready]

The Geth were asking if they had souls, a fairly advanced metaphysical concept. That indicates a certain amount of self-awareness and independent thought as well as the fundamental differences between organic and synthetic life.

A VI can refer to itself as an individual. It can state that, no, it has no soul. But a VI doesn't think about it. It won't ask if it has one. It's advanced software responding to an outside query. If it asked once it could be chalked up to a malfunction or outside interference.

If I remember correctly, when Legion explains it, the recording wasn't of the first time the Geth ever asked if they had a soul. It was the first time a Quarian overseer was worried by them asking the question.

Modifié par ExistsAlready, 03 mars 2011 - 07:28 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

You don't have any contradictory sources, however. Your theory is pure conjecture. Yes, I agree that if the Quarians knew or strongly suspected that the Geth were sapient then they too are guilty of attempted genocide.

 
Except Tali says essentially the same thing as Legion in Mass Effect 1.

In ME1 she tells you that the Quarians panicked when the Geth started asking deep questions about the nature of their existance. Tali admits that the Quarians realized that if the Geth had achieved self-awareness and independant thought, and the Quarians feared the Geth would now view their situation as a form of slavery, and rebel. So the Quarians struck first.

In ME2 Tali contradicts herself and makes it seem as if the Quarians did not yet realize that their creations had become sapient. This flies in the face of both what she told you in ME1, and what Legion tells you in ME2. Legion even replays a recording of a Quarian overseer panicking as one of her Geth asks if it has a soul. There is no reason to question the authenticity of this recoding as Tali confirms in ME1 that the Geth were asking similar questions and that it frightened the Quarians.

As pointed out by Exists, the Geth were thinking beyond what they had been programmed to do and asking deep, metaphysical questions. A VI could not do this, since it only emulates an intelligent being. A VI is not self-aware.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 03 mars 2011 - 07:45 .

[Whatever42]

Agreed that the Quarians thought if the Geth achieved self-awareness that there would be a rebellion. They definately knew the Geth were approaching that. But remember, that the Geth are not a group consciousness. And merely asking existential questions does not conclusively indicate sapience. If we were to create a learning computer, it would ask all sorts of questions. Now obviously that one Geth exceeded its programming and was a cause for alarm but thats a far crying from knowing all Geth had achieved sapiance.

[Whatever42]

Out of curiousity, I re-listened to that conversation. Remember, that the Geth were not as articulate as legion. Legion is a thousand programs and is exponentially more sophisticated than the average Geth. Geth programs were designed to learn independently and ask questions and had been doing so for years. For all the Quarians knew, a geth asking about a soul was no different than a Geth asking about a hammer. It does not indicate self-awareness.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Then the Quarians are fools, and a species that doesn't learn from it's mistakes probably deserves to go extinct.

[b]Yes, because it was actually the Quarians who took up guns[b] and killed 99.9+% of the species.

Actually, yes. The Quarians did attack first and attempt to annihilate the Geth. The difference between the Geth and the Quarians is that the Geth suceeded where the Quarians failed, and the Geth were responding to Quarian aggression.

I applaude you for completely (and deliberately?) misconstruing the point.

In the real world I don't believe that a true AI is possible. I don't think there ever will be a such thing as a synthetic life form. But in the Mass Effect universe I think is clear that the Geth are as much 'alive' and self-aware as any of the organic species.

That's an argument that's been fought many times before, and it always seems to revolve around what makes organics sentient. Are we chemical-reaction formulas, lacking all free will, and inherently predictable in every action and thought if there were only a computer sophisticated enough to calculate the countless variables?

If your belief is that is the truth, then yes: we are functionally identical to the geth, and we are as sentient as they are (and, by simplification, a calculator). We are simply predictable outputs of complex equations, which is exactly what the Geth are. Geth are the gestalt of a lot of individual geth programs, but each individual geth is basic and predictable, as is the reactions and math between its partners. Geth intelligence is simply predictable interactions too vast and numerous to be tracked and predicted.

If you believe otherwise, however? If there's some inherent random value tha makes our decisions unpredictable? Whether religious or quantum or otherwise? Then no: the Geth are complex, but that is all they are. They don't even have the fig-leaf of a quantum blue box, as had by purely unique AI like EDI.