180 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If the geth weren't sapient, they are incapable of being guilty of genocide. It makes the Morning War more like some sort of catastrophic industrial accident that resulted in death of most of the quarian species. It would also put the blame at the feat of the quarians themselves. However, the geth were becoming self aware and the quarians knew it. That was why they attempted to shut them down, both Legion and Tali mention this. This means that the geth bear sole responsibility for their own choices and actions. If they are just malfunctions they aren't capable of bearing any responsibility or guilt. But they are guilty.

[ExistsAlready]

The Geth have religion, they believe all species should self-determinate and find their own way into the future. They have a strict isolationist policy and keep to the their own space, to protect both themselves and organic species. They reach decisions by consensus, individual Geth can and do disagree with each other, they are not a uniform hive mind.

Just because you don't understand them doesn't mean they don't have morals. Take a look at tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality. Also bear in mind "...Legion also explains that applying the morals of one's own species to another is blatantly racist...".

[ExistsAlready]

The quarians acted on the assumption that the geth would rebel. An assumption. They decided they were going to be smart and stop the problem before it happened.  They took one look at their technically illegal AI creations, panicked, decided they knew exactly what the geth were going to do, started a pre-emptive war and got their assess handed to them because they were horrible judges of geth advancement. There's no justification for that.

In fact I'd go so far as to say it was a damn good thing the geth won. The quarians have spent the last 300 years dreaming of eradicating the geth and retaking their homeworld. 300 years the geth have given them despite know the quarians fully intended to wipe them out and still harbour thoughts of doing so in the future.

If the quarians had won, the geth would currently be a footnote on how not to build your VIs and why the Citadel banned AI research.

[ExistsAlready]

Yes. You prepare for the worst. You prepare so that, should the worst comes to the worst, you survive. Prepare for unforseen events throwing a monkey wrench in your other preperations.

That's not what the quarians did. They made an assumption. You know that saying "making assumptions makes an ass out of you" or whatever it is? That's what they did. They assumed the geth would rebel. They assumed that by striking first, they would mop up the problem before it began. They assumed that the geth wouldn't be able to fight back.

If they'd prepared a little better than they assumed, they probably wouldn't be on a refugee crawl three centuries later.

[mcsupersport]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ExistsAlready wrote...

The quarians acted on the assumption that the geth would rebel. An assumption.

A safe one. When the survival of your civilization is at stake you don't "Hope for the best". You assume the worst and prepare accordingly. That's what the quarians did.

When you take Legion on Tali's LM, and ask about Peace, Legion says not without further data because the Creators have attacked 100% of the time when they felt they had an advantage.  This to me means the Geth probably did give the Quarians a chance after first fighting, but instead of taking the chance for peace the Quarians attacked again.  So as a race do you allow yourself to be attacked repeatedly by another and continue to give chances for peace or do you drive the other race from your planet and make sure they can't hurt you??????


When you take the views of Quarians with the views of Geth and look at the reactions of each and what they want to do to the other, I have to believe Quarians had a chance for peace but they wanted their servants back so they attacked again.  The Geth then saw again that the Quarians were untrustworthy and drove them off planet.  Driving another race off planet isn't simply asking them to leave, you HAVE to attack hard enough to make them want to leave.  You can't call it Genocide because the Geth were NOT trying to kill every Quarian, they could have easily finished it if they wanted too, they were just trying to win a brutal war STARTED and CONTINUED by the QUARIANS.

So, I like Tali and most Quarians, but have ZERO sympathy for their plight in something they created and continue to try to cause, which is the WAR on GETH.  Most Quarians would have Zero problems wiping the Geth out, and have Zero desire to co-exist with them, seeing them as inferior or "bad".  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If the geth weren't sapient, they are incapable of being guilty of genocide.

True, but I don't see how that makes them any more sympathetic. What it does do however is justify the quarian's actions (even though they were already justified) and make the whole quarian slaughter, exile, and neglect all the more tragic.

I wasn't trying to make them sound sympathetic. I was just saying they were more than just mindless machines because mindles machines can't bear responsibility. With that said, I don't think the quarians are entirely without guilt in the whole affair. The geth's actions are certainly worse of the two, but given what Legion has said, I don't think the war would have happened at all had the quarians not struck first.

I think the whole point of the way Bioware wrote the story of the Morning War was that it wasn't a clear cut issue. Attacking the geth was a mistake, and the geth had every right to defend themselves against the quarians. That still doesn't make them oberliterating the entire quarian race any more justifiable.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If they are just machines then they can't be guilty of anything. Because they need to be self aware enough to be able to make the choice to exterminate the quarians. If they are just machines then the death of those billions of quarians are just an accident that is the fault of a few quarian scientists.

[Fayfel]

There is no proof that the geth slaughtered the quarian population. It's far more likely in my mind, that the vast majority of casualties were caused by the collapse of quarian society. There even exists the possibility that many quarians survived and are living at a much lower technological standard or are otherwise detained by the geth, unable to communicate with the rest of the galactic community. No one can really say one way or the other.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If they are just machines then they can't be guilty of anything.

I agree, as I've explained several times now. I point out that the geth are just machines because it absolves the quarians of guilt. Or at least it is one way to absolve them of guilt. It is one possible approach to the dilemma.

For my part even if the geth were living beings I'd still consider the quarians to be guilty of nothing.

Let me also make it clear that I don't hold it against the geth for winning the war.

A being that is capable of being guilty is also capable of being innocent. And at the time the quarians decided to destroy them, they were. And I don't believe it is possible for a being to be sapient and not truly alive. And if the geth are alive, how is murdering them for essentially the cime of existing not bad?

Amakiir wrote...

There is no proof that the geth
slaughtered the quarian population. It's far more likely in my mind,
that the vast majority of casualties were caused by the collapse of
quarian society. There even exists the possibility that many quarians
survived and are living at a much lower technological standard or are
otherwise detained by the geth, unable to communicate with the rest of
the galactic community. No one can really say one way or the
other.

Yes there is. Both Tali and Legion talk about the fact that the geth killed countless quarians. And even if billions somehow died due to chaos, that chaos would have still been caused by the geth. And if there were quarians that were still on Rannoch we would have heard about them from either Legion of one of the quarians.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 mars 2011 - 01:02 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If the geth are sentient, then they are no longer just tools. By striking first the quarians were, by definition, not "defending themselves". And by doing so they created a dangerous enemy they might not otherwise have had. If you believe they geth should have been killed because they MIGHT be dangerous, then the quarians (and every other nation) should attack everyone they meet because anyone could be potentially harmful.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 mars 2011 - 01:13 .

[I will kill you both]

All of these stories are just metaphors to WW2 and post WW2...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If the geth are sentient, then they are no longer just tools. By striking first the quarians were, by definition, not "defending themselves".

Yes, they were. Defense does not mean you have to wait until you are attacked. The quarians took pre-emptive action to prevent the geth form taking up arms against them. They were trying to prevent the destruction of their people and civilization. When something that big is at stake it is unfair to demand that they wait for the enemy to strike them first. If they had waited for the geth to attack no quarians may have survived.

There is no reason to think the geth would have attacked the quarians at all. Geth as a whole don't seem to be an agressive people. Even their atrocities against the quarians and humans seemed more driven by ruthless efficiency than actual agression.

[nevar00]

Isn't it ironic; they brought about the very thing they were trying to prevent.

[nevar00]

Or they could have prepared for the worst and tried for the best, instead of panicking and trying to kill everyone to cover their work.