180 réponses à ce sujet

[nevar00]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Or they could have prepared for the worst and tried for the best, instead of panicking and trying to kill everyone to cover their work.

No, they couldn't have. Trying for peace would have allowed the geth more time to develop. The longer the geth are allowed to exist the more organized they will become. More the quarians will be at a disadvantage. The greater the peril if the geth become violent.

The quarians could not afford to sit around and negotiate. They had to take swift action to try and end the threat.

"Preparing for the worst" could also provoke the geth. Say if the quarians starting asking for peace but at the same time evacuating civilians. The geth might think the quarians are just stalling for time so that they can strike without hurting their own people. Or, the quarians might think the geth will think this.

It isn't as if trying for peace should have taken too long, plus the Quarians should have been in control of all their weapons and whatnot.  The geth should have been virtually unarmed and had shown no signs on agression.  Had they not panicked and tried to fix the mess they got themselves into, it would not have ended up with most of them dead.  I'm pretty sure Tali states in the first game that they were more worried about what the Citadel council would do if they found out how far they had gone with AI technology than the fact that they thought the geth were any sort of threat. 

[Slayer299]

Amakiir wrote...

There is no proof that the geth slaughtered the quarian population. It's far more likely in my mind, that the vast majority of casualties were caused by the collapse of quarian society. There even exists the possibility that many quarians survived and are living at a much lower technological standard or are otherwise detained by the geth, unable to communicate with the rest of the galactic community. No one can really say one way or the other.

Then what exactly happened to all those Quarians who survived on Rannoch and could not leave with the rest? A population that drops from billions to millions isn't an accidental shift even taking into consideration civilian collateral damage, disease and famine, that still wouldn't explain the number drop in population.

@nevar 00 - Unarmed? Seriously?? It's clearly stated that the Geth existed all over Quarian society; military, construction, mining, etc, and that there were infact millions of Geth through-out Rannoch and the Quarian Colonies, so they were hardly unarmed and helpless. Granted the Quarians panicked, but that was at the thought of the Geth realizing that they were now slave labor and revolting, an event that was seen as causing an untold level of Quarian lives.

The fact that the Quarian population on Rannoch alone should (by conservative estimates) several billion on Rannoch alone. A loss of so many can hardly be attributed to being accidental.

Modifié par Slayer299, 04 mars 2011 - 03:39 .

[nevar00]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

It isn't as if trying for peace should have taken too long,

How long is too long? A few hours? Days? Weeks? The geth are only going to get harder to control.

The geth were not unarmed. They were used in the military, for security, for labor, and for many other things. They didn't even need weapons to be dangerous though. Simply refusing to follow quarian orders would have shut-down their civilization.

Again, you are using hindsight. The quarians didn't have that.

A.I. was already illegal because of its danger. Just ONE A.I. going rogue is a life-threatening danger. In the quarians' case they have millions upon millions of uncontrolled A.I. spontaneously evolving.

The geth are machines and can achieve a 'consensus' fairly quickly...  I'm not sure how advanced the geth were supposed to be but being able to communicate and achieve a solution to problems they may face in their work would seem likely.  

Regardless, I don't know how long would have been too long, the Quarians should have determined that and planned accordingly.  Propose peace to the geth and set a time limit: then if no word yes, they should have done what they did.  Giving them a bit more time may allow the geth to become more dangerous and end up with causing a few hundred extra Quarians to die, but given that the other choice was peace that sounds like a risk they should have taken.  Again, the geth showed no signs of agression: hell I would say asking "do I have a soul" is a very tame question, as you wouldn't expect one to ask that and then proceed to kill everything in sight.  It's a lot less dangerous a question then "hey, why I am I doing all the housework while you watch tv all day?" at any rate.

Good point on what the geth were doing.  However by refusing to work, that would have done as much damage as the Quarian's plan to shut them all down... but nevermind.

Yes I know that A.I. research was banned for being dangerous, however I still got the impression that the Quarians didn't consider themselves in immediate danger and were more concerned about the trouble they would have gotten in had the Council found out.  Now that I think about it I'm pretty sure I got that impression from the first ME book - not Tali - btw.

Modifié par nevar00, 04 mars 2011 - 03:50 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There is no reason to think the geth would have attacked the quarians at all.

We only know what we know about the geth now because we have the benefit of hindsight. The quarians did not. All they knew was that their creations were developing beyond their ability to control them. They knew that if the geth became violent the repercussions could be severe. There was no choice but to act to mitigate the threat.

Sadly, the quarians underestimated how far developed the geth were.

However the fact that the geth later managed to wipe out more than 99% of the quarian species validates the quarian's fears. They were in danger, great danger. Waiting for the geth to act first, and maybe attack them (for all the quarians knew), was too great of a risk.

It was no greater of a risk than purposly ensuring that the geth become hostile. Assuming that every entitiy you can't control will try to kill you is foolish and impractical.

[Terminus8]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Geth have no moral value. They can be copy-pasted into notepad if you are so inclined. Quarians have moral value. Quarians can suffer. Any organic can suffer. A geth cannot suffer. We should not treat or regard geth as organic beings but instead as malfunctioning computer programs, nothing more.

Your posts are irrelevant to this entire debate. Assuming you know to what degree another can suffer based on human definition is illogical. Perhaps they can suffer or feel their version of pain by some other means? How would you know? What insane breed of logic some humans use. 
It was discovered plants could 'scream.' Plants give off increased amounts of ethylene gas when stressed, and University of Bonn scientist Ralph Gaebler used a special sensor to register plant gas emissions, translating them into the human equivalent of a scream. Are they suffering? In their own way, of course they are. 
Treating the geth as emotionless programs just makes you ignorant and worthy of dismissal. 

[nevar00]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Regardless, I don't know how long would have been too long, the Quarians should have determined that and planned accordingly.

Maybe they did. Maybe they decided that waiting around at all was too long? I think it's at least possible.

Yes I suppose that is possible.  However if it really got to that point I can't see the harm in at least approaching the geth with an offer of peace and waiting for even a few hours for an answer.  It just seems to me that the Quarians panicked: whether they were afraid of the geth or afraid of the Council finding out or even probably both.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Do you assume the best about everyone you meet and everywhere you go? I doubt it. I suspect you keep your car doors locked. I suspect you don't trust every stranger you meet. You take pre-emptive action to protect yourself. This doesn't mean attacking people in most circumstances.

However in the quarians' case they had to attack to save themselves from possible extinction.

No they didn't. The very threat they were afraid of only existed because of their preemtive assault.

Preemptive attacks and locking one's doors aren't the same thing. I don't see how anyone could say that they are. It would be like me beating someone up to make sure they never think of trying to rob me because I have to ensure my own safety. Trusting a stranger a complete stranger completely might be foolish but assuming any stranger wishes you harm is silly. There is a reasonable middle ground when dealing with unknowns.

Saphra Deden wrote...

What would have happened if the quarians tried for peace but the geth attacked anyway, this time gaining the advantage of first strike? No quarians may be alive today. Would you still defend your position in that case?

Your stance is only defendable if it works. The alternative is total destruction of the species down to the last man. In my case though I'm prepared for the worst and even when the worst came to pass (or close to it) I can still defend my actions by pointing out what might have happened if I'd done it your way.

There is no basis for this. You're just making an assumption and asserting it as a fact. The Morning War was a long, costly and drawn out affair. to paraphrase Vigil, the genocide of an entire species is a slow process. And even had the quarians not struck first, the end result would have been the same. The quarians fled Rannoch once they realized that they could not win, and the few who were left could not survive if they stayed. In fact, the only real drawback to not striking first would be that the quarians would have been unprepared for the geth attack. And this is exactly what happened anyway, they were expecting only a few geth would have reached sentience and that they would be easily deactivated. Since that was not the case, they were obviously unprepared for the scale of geth retaliation.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The quarians gained no advantage early on. Tali said that they were expecting no organized resistance, obviously there was some, so either way the quarians were unprepared. And even if the war did go worse for the quarians because of that, there is no reason they wouldn't have been able to flee regardless when their numbers dwindled to the point where they realized they had no choice.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But that didn't make any difference, even if the geth weren't expecting it, their network was much more advanced than the quarians thought and they formed more organized resistance than the quarians expected. Geth think at the speed of light, any suprise that would have been gained would have worn off almost instantaneously. And even if it did buy them time, it was negligible. To say that was what made the difference between extinction and survival is a huge leap.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

To everyone who thinks the Geth did not commit genocide:

[Barquiel]

The quarians survived because the geth allowed it, and not because they struck first. If the geth really wanted to wipe out all quarians...they would have already done so.

[I will kill you both]

I agree. Also this was a kill or get killed scenario. GO GETH!

[Ramirez Wolfen]

I will kill you both wrote...

I agree. Also this was a kill or get killed scenario. GO GETH!

[I will kill you both]

It went down like this
Geth : I...understand your poem little girl
Quarian girl: OMG monster!
Geth: Monster?
Quarian girl: You are just a machine! How can you think outside the box?
Geth: ...
Quarian council: **** now we got no more slaves they are worthless to us AND they may be a danger to the galaxy let's kill them all!
Quarians: Yeah the hell with them they are just machines lol
Geth:...WE ARE GETH.
Quarians: Aw ****!
Geth...WE ARE GETH! WE ARE GETH.
Quarians: there are too many of them why are they killing us just because we tried to kill them (all) first? MONSTERS! We will retake our planet one day! Never you mind we released almost sentient machines on the whole galaxy and made them distrust other races...but why does everybody hate us now?

Yeah...

Modifié par I will kill you both, 05 mars 2011 - 09:04 .

[I will kill you both]

It is not fair if you are a Quorian sympathizer. The Geth didn't start the war but it is on!

[BellatrixLugosi]

And just to nitpick, Xenocide is the term you guys are looking for not Genocide

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Xenocide is not a real word as far as I know. And even if it is one, personally I never really found it to have the same sort of powerful connotations as "genocide" does.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 mars 2011 - 11:27 .

[Foehunter82]

swenson wrote...

Honestly, if any genocide was going on in the quarian/geth war, it was quarians attempting genocide of the geth. After that, it seems that the geth were basically fighting just to drive the quarians away from their planets, as it doesn't sound like the geth ever tried to attack the Migrant Fleet.

I agree that both sides were at fault, though. The quarians shouldn't have tried to shut down all the geth once they realized they were sentient, and the geth didn't need to drive the quarians off all of their planets. The quarians are guilty of not wanting to take responsibility for the sentient beings they created, and the geth are guilty of, well, taking things to kind of an extreme. Why couldn't they just have hijacked some ships and left, after all? Or stopped at taking over ONE quarian world, rather than all of them?

This point illustrates the point I'm going to make.  The Salarians created the genophage because they were taking responsibility for uplifting the Krogan.  They uplifted them for a reason, and after that reason was gone, they realized that they had a new problem and took responsibility for it.  In that respect, they had good intentions.  Creating the genophage is what was wrong.