180 réponses à ce sujet

[chrono21791]

The plant was only to give a quick example of something that is obviously alive and obviously can suffer, but does not do so in nearly the same way as humans (such as geth).

[chrono21791]

Maybe I should clarify: About genocide, you were right and I was wrong. If you attempt to exterminate every member of a race/religion/culture, you are committing genocide. However, there are two types. The afore mentioned, and unintentional genocide, such as the case was with the Rachni Wars. The krogan did not enter the war with the purpose of killing off all rachni. They entered with the purpose of winning the war, but when the Rachni refused to surrender, they forced the citadels hands and were destroyed utterly. That is genocide, too.

My argument is that the Geth commited neither form of Genocide. They did not enter the war with the intent of killing every last Quarian, they just wanted to survive, and then boot them out of the veil. The Quarians were too stubborn and foolish to know when to cut their losses and hightail it, so they warred with the geth until almost their entire population was dead. BUT, the geth did not pursue them. They had no interest in the extermination of the Quarian race. They simply wanted to win the war.

So, they neither intended to kill every last quarian (exempting them from genocide in the sense it is used to describe the Holocaust, or the Armenian Genocide) nor did they (exempting them from genocide in the more literal sense, because they did not kill every last quarian).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

chrono21791 wrote...

Maybe I should clarify: About genocide, you were right and I was wrong. If you attempt to exterminate every member of a race/religion/culture, you are committing genocide. However, there are two types. The afore mentioned, and unintentional genocide, such as the case was with the Rachni Wars. The krogan did not enter the war with the purpose of killing off all rachni. They entered with the purpose of winning the war, but when the Rachni refused to surrender, they forced the citadels hands and were destroyed utterly. That is genocide, too.

My argument is that the Geth commited neither form of Genocide. They did not enter the war with the intent of killing every last Quarian, they just wanted to survive, and then boot them out of the veil. The Quarians were too stubborn and foolish to know when to cut their losses and hightail it, so they warred with the geth until almost their entire population was dead. BUT, the geth did not pursue them. They had no interest in the extermination of the Quarian race. They simply wanted to win the war.

So, they neither intended to kill every last quarian (exempting them from genocide in the sense it is used to describe the Holocaust, or the Armenian Genocide) nor did they (exempting them from genocide in the more literal sense, because they did not kill every last quarian).

Ok fair enough. At least now we have to common ground on which to disscuss upon. My point was that the geth killing every quarian they found in order to win a war isn't really any different than killing every quarian they found in order to kill every quarian they find. The end result for the quarians is the same. Even if the geth had pursued them past the veil, it wouldn't really change what happened on Rannoch. And even if the destruction of the complete  quarian reace wasn't their end goal, it was still the method they used to acheive their true end goals, which isn't any better in my opinion.

[chrono21791]

The Quarians died because they refused to give up, not because the Geth were hunting them down. In fact, if you talk to Legion, he mentions wanting to make peace with "the creators" and live in harmony with them. It's not the Geth's fault that the Quarians fought until they literally could no longer fight. Even if there were only thousands of Quarians left, if they continued to attack the Geth, what are they supposed to do about it? Lie down and take it, because there are so few Quarians left?

[chrono21791]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Something that has no mind cannot suffer. 

You are going to need backup for that.

[chrono21791]

Saphra Deden wrote...

chrono21791 wrote...

You are going to need backup for that.

No, I don't. It is pretty simple logic. If something without a mind can suffer then anything can suffer. A rock suffers. The water suffers. An ant suffers.

Logical Fallacy. You are suggesting you need a mind to suffer, and nothing else can transmit negative stimuli to an organism.

Anything ALIVE can suffer. So yes, ants suffer. You really think ANTS can't suffer?

Define suffering and pain, then we can move on.

Modifié par chrono21791, 08 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[chrono21791]

Saphra Deden wrote...

chrono21791 wrote...

You really think ANTS can't suffer?

Yes. They lack the mind to comprehend or feel stimuli the way we do. In any case, geth aren't even alive so by your own criteria they can't suffer. This of-course is in additon to the fact that in Legion's own words they don't feel pain or any emotions.

I am trying to argue that Geth ARE alive. Not organic life, synthetic life, but life all the same.

Ants actually do have minds. By YOUR logic, dogs can't feel pain, because they do not comprehend or feel stimuli the way we do. People with low IQ's cant feel pain, because they do not comprehend or feel stimuli the way we do.

Legion most definitely has emotions. He may not admit it, but he does. For instance, he shows suprise when he learns the Heretic Geth were spying on the normal Geth, and he shows sentimental value towards Shepards armor (when asked why he used Shepards armor to repair himself instead of something else, he cannot respond). He also cares about Organic life. He explains that the Geth wish to understand and work with Organic life, and want to make peace with the Quarians. If he did not have emotions, he would not care. But, since caring is an emotion, he can have emotions.

Meaning he can feel.

Meaning he can suffer.

Just because he wont admit he can't feel emotions doesn't mean he can't. 

EDI, for example (an AI, as it were) most definitely shows emotions. She makes jokes, and cares about the crew and the Normandy.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

chrono21791 wrote...

The plant was only to give a quick example of something that is obviously alive and obviously can suffer, but does not do so in nearly the same way as humans (such as geth).

Since when can plants suffer? You are going to need to back that up. Something that has no mind cannot suffer.

The Thorian. Next question?

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, that is YOU projecting emotion onto him because your human mind can't help but to try and empathize with others. Legion never displays any real emotions at all beyond curiosity, but that is hardly an "emotion" in the traditional sense. Frankly, without real-life proof to the contrary, I will assume that for emotions to exist one must possess the proper PHYSICAL structures and chemical components. Geth do not have these things.

Geth have no damage response stimuli? No self repair capacity? We know for a fact that they can counter the effects of hacking. We know for a fact that they have a sense of self preservation, or they wouldn't have defended themselves against the Quarians.

And you still haven't explained why they are cleaning up the Quarian home worlds, which is completely illogical activity as it makes resource extraction more difficult. You haven't explained the Geth interest in Quarian opera.

Their systems operate on a different chemical basis to ours, but so what? On that criteria, the Turians aren't 'alive', since they also have a different body chemistry. It is an arbitrary criteria on your part. May as well claim someone with a different skin color isn't 'alive' or 'sentient' simply because you have included an irrelevant criteria (skin colour) in your definition.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The Thorian. Next question?

Since when is the Thorian a plant? It was only ever described that way by people who had never actually observed its core.

And described that way by those that studied its coprse after we put bullets into it. Next question?

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

And described that way by those that studied its coprse after we put bullets into it. Next question?

No it wasn't. It doesn't prove anything either. If you think the Thorian was essentially just an Oak tree then you need your head examined.

Next!

So your arguement now is that you are right and the writers are wrong? The Geth are not toasters and the Thorian isn't an oak tree any more than you are a field mouse. You are capable of much better arguements than this.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

So your arguement now is that you are right and the writers are wrong?

No, you are wrong. The writers never said the Thorian was a plant. A few characters did, characters who had never actually seen the full creature. All they had seen were the tendrils spread across Feros. The organism we met in the bowels beneath Zhu's Hope was clearly an animal, even if a plant-like one.

It is referred to as a plant, which isn't contradicted anywhere. Animals don't have spores, that is a plant/fungi mechanism, yet Shiala again mentions spores in ME2, and given she and the other surviving colonists have been through batteries of tests, there is no reason to believe she has no clue what she is talking about.

Your only 'evidence' seems to be wishful thinking on your part that the Thorian's existance doesn't contradict your arguement....

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...


Geth have no damage response stimuli? No self repair capacity? We know for a fact that they can counter the effects of hacking. We know for a fact that they have a sense of self preservation, or they wouldn't have defended themselves against the Quarians.

If something does A when B occurs, that doesn't mean it has a mind and 'feels'. It simply is a response, with no inherent sentience attached to it.

Even, and especially, in computers, self-preservation isn't inherent with sentience. If a computer is programmed to protect itself, it protects itself because it was told to, not because it gained higher level thinking. Simply because it carries out its instructions in unexpected ways I may or may not have predicted does not mean that it is alive.

And you still haven't explained why they are cleaning up the Quarian home worlds, which is completely illogical activity as it makes resource extraction more difficult. You haven't explained the Geth interest in Quarian opera.

Why shouldn't geth maintain programming baggage from when they were programmed by the Quarians?

Their systems operate on a different chemical basis to ours, but so what? On that criteria, the Turians aren't 'alive', since they also have a different body chemistry. It is an arbitrary criteria on your part. May as well claim someone with a different skin color isn't 'alive' or 'sentient' simply because you have included an irrelevant criteria (skin colour) in your definition.

The debate, as always, comes down to what marks sentience in organics. If organics are plug-and-solve calculus programs of chemical reactions and nothing else, then the Turians aren't alive... and neither are humans. If there is, however, something unique in organics that provides sentience, then the Geth are not alive and are what they've always been described as: exceptionally advanced, but predictable, programs that get more complicated as they interact with eachother.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If something does A when B occurs, that doesn't mean it has a mind and 'feels'. It simply is a response, with no inherent sentience attached to it.

Even, and especially, in computers, self-preservation isn't inherent with sentience. If a computer is programmed to protect itself, it protects itself because it was told to, not because it gained higher level thinking. Simply because it carries out its instructions in unexpected ways I may or may not have predicted does not mean that it is alive.

How is that in any way different from our core programming coming from DNA and the rest learned from our environment? Pain stimuli and the ability to literally 'feel' is simply there. Attaching meaning to what we feel is learned from our environment. Geth design is such that more can be passed on 'at birth' but how is that any different than the race memories of the Rachni or the Asari ability to transfer information telepathicly?

Emotions themselves are just stimuli responses that are so instinctive or automatic that they seem irrational, since most people cannot see the connections. They usually happen too fast to see the actual processes that trigger them.

Why shouldn't geth maintain programming baggage from when they were programmed by the Quarians?

Because they can change their design. If they couldn't, they would never have risen beyond their base programming. Why would they keep useless or inefficient programming unless they wanted to? Humans try to change their programming all the time. Smokers try to quit, criminals try to reform. Many succeed. It is rational to do such things, to 'grow' beyond one's limitations, bad habits, bad programming.

The debate, as always, comes down to what marks sentience in organics. If organics are plug-and-solve calculus programs of chemical reactions and nothing else, then the Turians aren't alive... and neither are humans. If there is, however, something unique in organics that provides sentience, then the Geth are not alive and are what they've always been described as: exceptionally advanced, but predictable, programs that get more complicated as they interact with eachother.

But there is nothing that provides any evidence that organics are different, and the differentiation sentience vs non sentience is one of degree. It requires a certain level of complexity to start forming emotion-level attachements and to exhibit the behavior we refer to as 'feeling.' This is back to the tendancy of some posters to refer to the Geth as 'toasters', and to conclude that since toasters aren't sentient, neither are Geth. That is no different from referring to some portions of humanity as 'monkies' and therefore dismissing them as non-sentient.

Being sufficiently complex, sentient beings are much less predictable. Note that the Geth don't come to unanimous conclusions, so they all must be able to think independantly and while in theory it might be possible to study any given Geth's programming and figure out precisely how it came to any given conclusion, it is not a given that they would come to the same conclusion again. It is not a given that you could even look at their programming in such a manner without changing their behavior or thought processes. Note that an Asari could in theory do exactly the same with a human, or some other 'organic' race.

As for the big question "do they have free will?', do we? Does it matter? We all behave as if we do.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...


How is that in any way different from our core programming coming from DNA and the rest learned from our environment? Pain stimuli and the ability to literally 'feel' is simply there. Attaching meaning to what we feel is learned from our environment. Geth design is such that more can be passed on 'at birth' but how is that any different than the race memories of the Rachni or the Asari ability to transfer information telepathicly?

The difference between deliberation and reflex.

If you don't believe there's a difference, than of course it isn't different. If you believe there is, however... machines don't deliberate, the nature of programming is reactive.

Emotions themselves are just stimuli responses that are so instinctive or automatic that they seem irrational, since most people cannot see the connections. They usually happen too fast to see the actual processes that trigger them.

There's a lot of debate about that topic, but you can also tie sentience and true life to that biological nature. Geth, by their own admission, don't share the hardware that makes life, well, life.

Why shouldn't geth maintain programming baggage from when they were programmed by the Quarians?

Because they can change their design. If they couldn't, they would never have risen beyond their base programming. Why would they keep useless or inefficient programming unless they wanted to? Humans try to change their programming all the time. Smokers try to quit, criminals try to reform. Many succeed. It is rational to do such things, to 'grow' beyond one's limitations, bad habits, bad programming.

'Can' doesn't mean 'must,' nor 'will', or technically even 'want' to remove all influences.

I can rebel against my nation to the best of my ability, but the way I do just that is going to be influenced by my upbringing. Even if I were to systematically try to reject all of the influence in me, in some ways it would remain (in memory, in pattern recognition, in the very way my intelligence developped).

But there is nothing that provides any evidence that organics are different,

Well, emotions are a start. Pain is another. Geth refute either.

and the differentiation sentience vs non sentience is one of degree.

Debatable.

The Turing tests certainly showed that the level between being sentient and being able to be deemed sentient from afar don't match up.

It requires a certain level of complexity to start forming emotion-level attachements and to exhibit the behavior we refer to as 'feeling.' This is back to the tendancy of some posters to refer to the Geth as 'toasters', and to conclude that since toasters aren't sentient, neither are Geth. That is no different from referring to some portions of humanity as 'monkies' and therefore dismissing them as non-sentient.

I agree that that argument is flawed: Geth are far more complex than toasters.

Fortunately, I do not make that argument.

As for the big question "do they have free will?', do we? Does it matter? We all behave as if we do.

At the heart of it, it does matter: free will may be the identifier of true sentience. To have free will means that you are not solely a slave of your biology. Geth, by Legion's only depiction, can never make that leap of indpendence from their composition.

If that leap exists, the Geth aren't fit to be raised to the same level as us. If that leap does not exist, then we are obliged by honest to lower ourselves down to the geth's level... in which case we are equivalent.

[chrono21791]

But there is nothing that provides any evidence that organics are different,

Well, emotions are a start. Pain is another. Geth refute either.

But exhibit both.

At the heart of it, it does matter: free will may be the identifier of true sentience. To have free will means that you are not solely a slave of your biology. Geth, by Legion's only depiction, can never make that leap of indpendence from their composition.

If that leap exists, the Geth aren't fit to be raised to the same level as us. If that leap does not exist, then we are obliged by honest to lower ourselves down to the geth's level... in which case we are equivalent.

Then please explain how the heretics could make their own decision and part from the core Geth? Please explain how when building concensus, many of them disagree with each other?

Modifié par chrono21791, 08 mars 2011 - 08:50 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The difference between deliberation and reflex.

If you don't believe there's a difference, than of course it isn't different. If you believe there is, however... machines don't deliberate, the nature of programming is reactive.

No more or less reactive than human thought processes. We encounter stimulii and make associations with what we already know, forming conclusions that we call 'recognition.' The process is so fast that it doesn't seem reactive, but that doesn't mean it isn't.

Once on a subject, inorganic machines are just as capable of deliberation as organics. So far, we haven't managed to achieve the same kind of associative memory in machines that we have as humans, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible, just that we haven't gotten there yet. Modern design that takes into account a 'maybe' state in addition the the binary 'yes/no' is a step towards that goal.

There's a lot of debate about that topic, but you can also tie sentience and true life to that biological nature. Geth, by their own admission, don't share the hardware that makes life, well, life.

There are humans that don't feel they do too. There are some humans incapable of certain types of feelings. That doesn't make them non-sentient or correct in their assessments. You can define 'life' as requiring certain aspects. Technically Geth are not alive by the classical definition because they don't directly reproduce. That is independant from the definition of sentience. "They can't because we think they shouldn't be able to isn't an an arguement. I think Paris Hilton shouldn't be able to get television shows short of buying them outright, but it doesn't seem to stop her.

'Can' doesn't mean 'must,' nor 'will', or technically even 'want' to remove all influences.

I can rebel against my nation to the best of my ability, but the way I do just that is going to be influenced by my upbringing. Even if I were to systematically try to reject all of the influence in me, in some ways it would remain (in memory, in pattern recognition, in the very way my intelligence developped).

But choosing not to change is a choice too. If they were governed solely by logic with no other feelings or values, then they would change. As for some part of it remaining in your memory, why would they need to forget what they were before to be able to change? Based on that they would never have rebelled... they had to 'change what they were before.'

Well, emotions are a start. Pain is another. Geth refute either.

They have a different pain receptor system, different self healing capacity, and thus different fight or flight responses. What is your point? Those vary in the animal kingdom too.

Debatable.

The Turing tests certainly showed that the level between being sentient and being able to be deemed sentient from afar don't match up.

And the Quarians who designed them deemed them sentient. AI's rather than VI's.

At the heart of it, it does matter: free will may be the identifier of true sentience. To have free will means that you are not solely a slave of your biology. Geth, by Legion's only depiction, can never make that leap of indpendence from their composition.

If that leap exists, the Geth aren't fit to be raised to the same level as us. If that leap does not exist, then we are obliged by honest to lower ourselves down to the geth's level... in which case we are equivalent.

They have individual decisions, and vote in arguably the most efficient democracy ever. Why do you see this as 'lowering ourselves down to their level?' That very concept indicates your mind is made up and you are just trying to rationalize your prejudices.