191 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Demo was very easy. I just had Aveline taunt and whatsnot, and aimed all the spells right at her. I suspect the same tactic will work throughout the entire game.

[Rawgrim]

Aidunno wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


Friendly fire was standard in Normal difficulty in mostly every other rpg up untill DA2. I guess normal difficulty is the same as Nightmare, for the target audience of DA2... "Aww...Merrill got hurt when I cast a firestorm spell on her!!! This game is so hard!" (Not aimed at anyone in particular).

So, it's another.. but it's always been done that way argument.

If the game is balanced for tactical party play at "hard" without friendly fire I would equate it to "normal" on the DAO PC version. Now on normal in DAO you simply fireballed anything, mana clashed mages etc and simply made sure all your party either healed their way out of it or had resistences. Hey you could even fireball a wall or closed door and kill everything through it. How is that realistic and isn't it also dumb ?

To me, and this is a personal opinion it's the challenge which is interesting. I would hope the challenge is still there even with FF off.

And you didn't answer my previous question. How many toggles for individual difficulty tweaks should there be ?

Didn`t see your question the first time. sorry. I would say: A simple on\\off toggle FF button would go a long, long way.

[Cuthlan]

Jungle_Rhino wrote...

Also I would like to request the rest of the community to join me in boycotting purchasing the game until such point that a Freindly Fire toggle is implemented. 

Nope.

I like playing with friendly fire turned off sometimes. It's fun.

[Wynne]

Jungle_Rhino wrote...

This is second hand and reposted from another forum but I have no reason to believe it has been fabricated:

DGaider on Bioboards wrote: Quote: Why can't it simply be a toggle?

Because it has a profound effect on the difficulty. Hence it being attached to the difficulty.

Or that, anyhow, is what I assume. Attaching things to toggles is great,  but if someone flips that on and doesn't know that it will suddenly make their "Easy" game not quite so Easy anymore... well, that wouldn't be good.

Sorry but that just reads as 'people are stupid' to me. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png

Well, it shouldn't. It should read as "While I have been gaming for a lifetime, that does not mean that I should expect a person who timidly picks up a video game for the first time to know WTF they are doing. Because I wouldn't either. And I should thus understand why Bioware would want to appeal to casual or non-gamers as well as hardcore gamers and average gamers, because a wide audience = more sales. That is why there are different difficulty levels, because not everyone is a newbie and not everyone is hardcore." 

If you're so hardcore that you must have friendly fire, then own it. Play Nightmare difficulty. If it's too hard, you can always wait for the inevitable FF mod. But for the love of the Maker, don't come on here and say "I would like to request the rest of the community to join me in boycotting purchasing the game until such point that a Freindly Fire
toggle is implemented." Why not? Because it makes you sound incredibly  full of yourself and pretentious, and most people are just going to laugh out loud at your nerve.

No, I am not going to boycott a game I preordered and lose my Signature Edition because you DEMAND FRIENDLY FIRE OMG after the game has already gone gold and is a week from release. 

If it suddenly came out that they made the game without the ability to play as a female and there was no female Hawke voice or romances or anything--something even mods can't quite make up for--that's when you'd get me to boycott the game, not for something as small, inconsequential, and almost downright unnoticeable as friendly fire.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I seem to be the only person who doesn't care at all about friendly fire. I played Hard in Origins. You know I handled friendly fire? I ignored it. Not once did I ever worry about hitting my party members with my fireballs and my tempests and my blizzards. It never mattered. I got along just fine, because collateral damage is all part of the deal. I haven't even noticed its absence in the demo, just as I never noticed its presence in Origins. My response to the whole issue is a big "so effing what?" It's just such a tiny thing when there are way more important things to worry about, like romances, and cliffhanger endings, and companion armor.

*hugs Ish* Oh, Ish. I never cared about collateral damage either. I just let it happen. You're not alone.

Modifié par Wynne, 02 mars 2011 - 01:19 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

 Play the demo with the mod than enables Nightmare and FF, experience the pain of almost all the abilities hitting your party in one way or another you are not extra careful (but DA2 iz hack n slahs lololololol), then come back with that request. The devs pointed out it was an issue of balance more than taking away your freedom.

[Graunt]

wulfsturm wrote...

I don't know what you're going on about, but people ARE stupid.

The original post only emphasizes this...ironically of course.

Magical fireballs, dragons and werewolves are realistic in the
Dragon Age setting. If your mage tosses a fireball that explodes in a
crowd of people, and certain people dont get hurt by the explosion,
because they are friends with the caster, isn`t realistic. Especially
since friendly fire was implemented in DA:O. Ergo, for no reason,
fireballs and such works differently in The Free Marches, than it does
in Ferelden.

Hey look, it's our friend suspension of disbelief again.  I mean, I can totally believe that it's possible to conjure a giant fireball, but it's COMPLETELY unfeasible that this same person could conjure up flames that only target specific individuals.

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

 Play the demo with the mod than
enables Nightmare and FF, experience the pain of almost all the
abilities hitting your party in one way or another you are not extra
careful (but DA2 iz hack n slahs lololololol), then come back with that
request. The devs pointed out it was an issue of balance more than
taking away your freedom.

Yeah, I don't look forward to playing Nightmare.  I'll do it of course, but it won't be anywhere near as "fun" as Very Hard simply because I think it's utterly idiodic that even now melee can gib each other.  Mages doing it were bad enough, but now having to resort to single target everything with everyone?  That's not really a challenge in player ability as much as player patience.  Although it makes spells like Chain Lightning (which apparently do not FF at all) even that more appealing.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 01:26 .

[Ieldra]

While the OP went over-the-top with his phrasing, I agree with the sentiment.

Friendly Fire is a huge deal in combat. Occasionally I like its absence, but usually I find things not tactical enough with its absence. So FF is a huge deal on Nightmare? Well, I don't play Nightmare, so I don't care. I'd like a separate switch. Or at least a difficulty setting that's different from Normal only by FF being active.

I'm very aware that combat will look insanely bombastic with people slinging fireballs and such around regardless of allies being in the area, and if people want to play like that, I won't be the one to prevent them. But looking awesome isn't *my* primary consideration, so I'd like a toggle.

Hopefully one of the first mods made for DA2

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

If you tried Nightmare in the demo, you will have found friendly fire far, far, far less forgiving than in Origins (or BGII). Far less forgiving. Now, while I agree that they have dumbed down the game to make it more "actiony", and further agree that FF should be a simple toggle (Gaider's post about how they don't want players to accidentally make their Easy game too hard by toggling it just makes me go /facepalm; it also shows just how stupid Bioware thinks their players are *chuckle*), you'll still have an enjoyable time dealing with it on Nightmare where not only your mage's spells affect you, but any melee (especially 2-h warrior/archer) will smack around your party mates as well.

[Aidunno]

Rawgrim wrote...
A simple onoff toggle FF button would go a long, long way.

But I would prefer....  Where does it end ? There is already an option called nightmare difficulty although yes, it probably changes some other things.  However if you use "realism" or "immersion" as an argument for a toggle other options should be allowed/disallowed as well. If you use "but DAO had it" or "BG had it" the same thing.

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...
it also shows just how stupid Bioware thinks their players are:

You have obviously never worked on a computer help desk or been a computer programmer having to cater for "intelligent" people. Sometimes intellegence does not lead them to notice specific things.

Modifié par Aidunno, 02 mars 2011 - 01:29 .

[kyles3]

I love living in a world this stupid. Maybe I'll actually try some elemental spells this time.

[Graunt]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

If you tried Nightmare in the demo, you will have found friendly fire far, far, far less forgiving than in Origins (or BGII). Far less forgiving. Now, while I agree that they have dumbed down the game to make it more "actiony", and further agree that FF should be a simple toggle (Gaider's post about how they don't want players to accidentally make their Easy game too hard by toggling it just makes me go /facepalm; it also shows just how stupid Bioware thinks their players are *chuckle*), you'll still have an enjoyable time dealing with it on Nightmare where not only your mage's spells affect you, but any melee (especially 2-h warrior/archer) will smack around your party mates as well.

What bothers me most about this is that even your most basic "single target" two-handed Warrior damage skill causes damage to enemies around them.  This really DOES limit player choice if the (melee) Rogue suffers no such affliction with the majority of their skills.  For Nightmare you would simply take a Tank, melee Rogue and two Mages...one specced deep into Spirit Healer, and both with Chain Lightning.

And hell, even if you wanted to cast a bunch of area of effect spells, you could always just resort to "H", which is what you had to do in Origins anyway.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 01:32 .

[Sir Caradoc]

I think we should put the realism debate aside as it leads nowhere. But I do agree with the orginal poster. Lack of ff disturbs me a great deal too.

I think friendly fire is vital for strategic gameplay. The point of mage''s spell variety is that there is always a spell for different type of situations. A fireball is a great spell to start a fight, but a bad spell to use while your team is crowed.

So if there isn't friendly fire penalty, it just boils down using the most power full area effect damage spell all the time.

So please bioware, atleast make nightmare a real deal. Please let us old timers have our challenge.

Modifié par Sir Caradoc, 02 mars 2011 - 01:35 .

[iampool]

I really don't get why couldn't they add a toggle on/off, instead of FF just in nightmare, that just makes me mad.
I mean come on, no FF is dumbing down the strategy, thats for sure.

[Graunt]

Sir Caradoc wrote...

I think we should put the realism debate aside as it leads nowhere. But I do agree with the orginal poster. It disturbs me a great deal too.

I think friendly fire is vital for strategic gameplay. The point of mage''s spell variety is that there is always a spell for different type of situations. A fireball is a great spell to start a fight, but a bad spell to use while your team is crowed.

So if there isn't friendly fire penalty, it just boils down using the most power full area effect damage spell all the time.

So please b ioware, atleast make nightmare a real deal. Please let us old timers have our challenge please.

The problem with this is that enemies are usually scattered until you are within trigger proximity.  At best they are already clumped up into a group of three.  You can't really launch a huge spell and be efficient if all you're hitting is 2-3 enemies, and they usually only start becoming good once you've rounded them up.  This isn't really that much of a problem if all you have is one tank and the rest ranged...you can simply aim so that everything but the tank is getting hit, but then this greatly limits what classes you can use.  You can't really finish a fight with a big spell either unless your tank can knockdown everything and back off.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 01:37 .

[AkiKishi]

Elementalists were never useless, but you did have to think about how to use them. Now you just fire off any spells you like without thought. Yay for streamlining.

[Poison_Berrie]

Aidunno wrote...
If the game is balanced for tactical party play at "hard" without friendly fire I would equate it to "normal" on the DAO PC version. Now on normal in DAO you simply fireballed anything, mana clashed mages etc and simply made sure all your party either healed their way out of it or had resistences. Hey you could even fireball a wall or closed door and kill everything through it. How is that realistic and isn't it also dumb ?

I played the demo originally with the idea of having friendly fire. It wasn't particularly hard, rather it required me to choose my targets and keep my allies out of the blast range. Just like I did in DAO. 
I tried to position my mages for their fire blast/frots cone.

It just feels cheap to blast your AoE's everywhere you want without any repercussions for not thinking about your allies.

And you didn't answer my previous question. How many toggles for individual difficulty tweaks should there be ?

Preferably lots.
Despite what a lot of people think increasing difficult is hardly actually more challeging. Difficulty generally changes how long it takes to kill an enemie not how challenging it is to fight him. A series of toggles/slides that determine enemy behavior would be a better difficulty setting than just amping enemy health armor and damage.
People are telling those who want FF to just play Nightmare, but in general difficulty increase makes it more a grindfest than actually making your enemies work smarter/better.

[Mossa_missa]

Rawgrim wrote...

Teclo wrote...

Wait, the unrealistic nature of a fireball only affecting the enemies ruins your immersion but the fact it's a magical fireball fired out of a magical man's hands is fine, as is the fact you're firing it at things like dragons and werewolves? Anyway, that aside, this will surely be patched in for the PC version - even if it's just by fans - and in the console version of DA:O, friendly fire was incredibly annoying as party member placement was a god damn nightmare with that radial menu from hell.

Also, laughing at the irony and hypocrisy, as pointed out here:

Well before you decide you might want to spell friendly correctly. -points to thread title-

Magical fireballs, dragons and werewolves are realistic in the Dragon Age setting. If your mage tosses a fireball that explodes in a crowd of people, and certain people dont get hurt by the explosion, because they are friends with the caster, isn`t realistic. Especially since friendly fire was implemented in DA:O. Ergo, for no reason, fireballs and such works differently in The Free Marches, than it does in Ferelden.

And how do you know that the mage cant chose whom the fire ball hurt? Its MAGIC....

[Veex]

The changes to friendly fire this time around would probably make Normal difficulty about as hard as Nightmare in DA:O. The mechanic is simply a lot more punishing than it was in the previous title if the modded demo is any indication of what it will be like in the full game.

[BrynnFey]

I wish everyone could understand that Bioware needs to make money if we want to keep playing their awesome games. In order to do that, they need to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. It's not that they think every single freaking person who plays the game is an idiot--they are just trying to be fair on the new players they're trying to recruit to their game. And as others have mentioned, FF is not necessarily something a newbie to RPGs would understand. Sure, a toggle that is automatically set to OFF would be nicer, but what's the point of complaining about something that will just be released as a fan mod if Bioware doesn't end up putting it in a patch?

Besides, as other have said--if you're such an RPG badass that you can't do without FF, freakin' play in on Nightmare and be quiet. Or don't buy the game. But don't ask us not to buy it either.

Modifié par BrynnFey, 02 mars 2011 - 01:50 .

[iampool]

Mossa_missa wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Teclo wrote...

Wait, the unrealistic nature of a fireball only affecting the enemies ruins your immersion but the fact it's a magical fireball fired out of a magical man's hands is fine, as is the fact you're firing it at things like dragons and werewolves? Anyway, that aside, this will surely be patched in for the PC version - even if it's just by fans - and in the console version of DA:O, friendly fire was incredibly annoying as party member placement was a god damn nightmare with that radial menu from hell.

Also, laughing at the irony and hypocrisy, as pointed out here:

Well before you decide you might want to spell friendly correctly. -points to thread title-

Magical fireballs, dragons and werewolves are realistic in the Dragon Age setting. If your mage tosses a fireball that explodes in a crowd of people, and certain people dont get hurt by the explosion, because they are friends with the caster, isn`t realistic. Especially since friendly fire was implemented in DA:O. Ergo, for no reason, fireballs and such works differently in The Free Marches, than it does in Ferelden.

And how do you know that the mage cant chose whom the fire ball hurt? Its MAGIC....

Oh come on! Its a damn big exploding fireball, and it doesn't hurt your friends? what-the-hell.
Anyway, i don't complaing about realism, its just a game afterall, but i think is just not challenging at all if i can throw huge spells and my friends won't get hurt, oh but of course, i CAN have that if i play in nightmare, that means if i want the hard way, it must be the REALLY HARD way, why?, i just want a damn toggle. Damnit.

[AkiKishi]

Mossa_missa wrote...

And how do you know that the mage cant chose whom the fire ball hurt? Its MAGIC....

Elemental mages summon elements. The magic is the summoning, the elements act just like they would. Fire is not selective it just burns whatever is there. Anything else would require a lore re-write I believe.

[iampool]

Double post, sorry.

Modifié par iampool, 02 mars 2011 - 01:52 .

[Starfoxea]

Jungle_Rhino wrote...

this is a game after all, meant for enjoyment after a long day at work.

First, the reason why they decreased the difficulty (and I guess removing FF on lower difficulties was part of the process) is because indeed "this is a game after all, meant for enjoyment after a long day at work".

To quote Mike Laidlaw from an interview published on The Escapist today (http://www.escapistm...er-Than-Origins):

I did feel Origins 'normal' [difficulty] was pushing too hard on the high side and no one wants to set their game to 'casual' unless they're comfortable being here just for the story, and that's fine. But as a player, I don't feel I should be able to pick what's arguably the default difficulty and get my ass handed to me again and again.

And I share his point. Sometimes I want challenge, sometime I just want fun. That's why "difficulty levels" are there. What would be the point to have all share exactly the same common features?

Should they consider putting a toggle for FF on lower levels? Well sure, if it can be done (and that completing the game on a given difficulty is not linked to an achievement of some sort) then it would be a further step toward tayloring the difficulty to suit each player's taste. Should FF be mandatory other than on Nightmare (or at most hard) difficulty... No. It's not because some players wants to play a certain way that all players should go this way too.

Anyway, as some other people said there will certainly be mods by the community to enable FF on other levels of difficulty and possibly even before Bioware would come around and put an official FF toggle in.

i guess that if they didn't however it's because completing the game on some difficulties will unlock an achievement and in this case all players should experience the same difficulty without any option to turn something on or off... Otherwise, not fair.

Modifié par Starfoxea, 02 mars 2011 - 01:54 .

[Aidunno]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

And you didn't answer my previous question. How many toggles for individual difficulty tweaks should there be ?

Preferably lots.
Despite what a lot of people think increasing difficult is hardly actually more challeging. Difficulty generally changes how long it takes to kill an enemie not how challenging it is to fight him.

In an ideal world I'd love it too.. unfortunately it's not practical at the current time. FF is an option but only in nightmare mode. Other options aren't even in the game.

Modifié par Aidunno, 02 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[GunClubGirl]

I agree with Wynne who posted if you want it on own it and play on nightmare, but I refuse to boycott the game. I would not mind if they made friendly fire optional so that you could turn it on or off, but they didn't, so your alternative is to play on nightmare. Personally, I like it off because why would my group attack their own party members? In my view, that would make no sense. I just play the game and aim my attacks to avoid my party members. And if someone else playing single player wants to not aim, and go ahead and hit their party members because friendly fire is off, THAT'S FINE, they paid for the game and they can have fun with it however they want. It isn't competitive multiplayer. So while I'd be fine with a friendly-fire-on OPTION on additional difficulties, I am glad I have the option to play with it off. Those of you "too hardcore" for it on can play on nightmare as an alternative.