803 réponses à ce sujet

[Smeelia]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No one can offer solid proof of the future. It's an impossible, and meaningless, standard.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You argue the necessity of solid proof, but provide remarkably little yourself.

Actually my point was that neither side can provide it, we're mostly left with speculation based on what we've seen before and what we hope for/believe in to make the final decision.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nonsense: the Derilect Reaper team did find and extract an IFF, Overlord did find a way to control Geth, and even the horific Teltin did produce the strongest human biotic. That these projects had death tolls (and unredeemable human suffering in Teltin) doesn't mean they provided nothing of signficiantly greater value for the Reaper War. Of the three most notable Cerberus disasters in ME2, none had ultimately catastrophic consequences, two of the three produced outputs that were instrumental in ending the Collector threat,  and one of them remains salvagable at the whim of Shepard.

The IFF was still in the Reaper, just relocated to a certain part of it and the fact that it was there was apparently coincidental since they didn't even know it was relevant at the time.  Overlord didn't find a way to control Geth, certainly not one that can be controlled/reproduced and ultimately we're not closer to finding how to control Geth than we were with the knowledge of temporary hacks (which at least work) and the incident of Saren/Sovereign influencing them with normal manipulation.  Teltin didn't produce any significant results that could be re-used.  The really strange thing is that these projects all seem to have been closed down and given up on (with the possible exception of Overlord although that's not clear) rather than remade with follow up projects using whatever data was available from before, the only reason for that would be if it was proven that they wouldn't work (which doesn't seem to be conclusive in most cases) or if they just couldn't afford it or didn't feel it worthwhile (perhaps more likely).

The disasters did have consequences such as the loss of resources, life and so on (all significant investments for very little back, with most benefits only being available by coincidence and luck).  The case for trying another project is that it might not go wrong this time and that if it does we can clear it up, the problem being that the idea we can clear it up relies on consistency (and having Shepard around) while the idea it wont go wrong relies on a change from the normal pattern.  If things were to go the other way we'd have catastophe with no Shepard around to save us.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Besides the fact that the Thorian research was by exo-geni and only failed because of Shepard's killing of the Thorian, and the (ironic,. coming from you) lack of solid proof that Cerberus was responsible for colony of the dead, let's look at just how catastrophic these failures really were.

The Thorian Creepers were actually studied by Cerberus (away from Feros), Miranda even mentions it.  It's not clear if Cerberus had involvement with the Exo-geni research but they definately studied the Creepers.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Teltin was not a galaxy-ruinous affair, and actually produced an unarguable asset to galactic survival. The Rachni experiments did not succede, but did not threaten the galaxy. Cerberus's involvement with the husks, in whatever manner it was, did not harm any significant area of the galaxy. Overlord is only unproductive if Shepard ends it: that avenue of research is now known to be plausible, and not a potential dead-end like the Rachni, husks, and thorian research.

These catastrophic failures had costs largely born by Cerberus and marginal areas of the galaxy. The only one that ever came close to an actual impediment of galactic preparation was Overlord, and that was fixed by Cerberus, well, sending in a team. (You.)

Jack's survival and use were mere coincidence, totally outwith the intended parameters and only possible with help from Shepard.  The Rachni experiments and Husks could well have posed a further threat, the Rachni had already spread to other systems and needed to be stopped by Shepard and the Husks were in the process of similar results (at least one mission involves stopping Husks on a ship bound for another base/colony).

Shepard has been cleaning up Cerberus' mess whether working with them or not, it's quite possible that the Cerberus research project guidelines have a section saying "when everything inevitably goes wrong accept that you'll probably die and wait for Shepard to come and clear things up".  It's not exactly a great plan.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet the payoff has been tremendous: the mass relays gave us the Conduit, and the mass effect gave Shepard every weapon and armor he uses. Studying a Reaper itself gave us the Thannix, EDI, and the IFF, the later two of which was entirely a product of Cerberus research and was a requisite for  beating the Collectors.

Meanwhile the costs born by researching Reaper technology have not been debilitative to beating the Reapers (not least since we will eventually pay the costs anyway regardless), while our means to counter them have increased with every exposure.

The Mass Effect technology is expected and deliberately given by the Reapers.  The Thanix was acquired from a destroyed Reaper, an argument in favour of destroying the base and researching the separate parts rather than researching an intact base (given that the risks have always been higher with fully intact technology).  EDI was mostly AI tech that already existed.  We're not in a position to reproduce the IFF (and it's not really valuable technology going forward anyway) and it almost destroyed the mission with the outcome having been a result of significant luck and against probability.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It goes exactly with what we have found before. We find problems. Sometimes these produce costs, sometimes they do not. Costs found are not insurmountable or debilitative towards galactic preparation. The results are by far disproportionate in favor.

Where would Shepard, and the effort against the Collectors, be if we destroyed all Reaper technology and refused to study it?

We've been pretty lucky, pretty often to not have already lost.  It's worth studying the technology but carrying on doing so in such a reckless (and Cerberus standard) fashion just isn't wise.  One day we might run into problems that Shepard can't fix.  Blowing up the base doesn't prevent it from being studied altogether, it just greatly reduces the risk of it being harmful (as mentioned, the study of a destroyed Sovereign had much greater benefits with much lower risks than studying anything intact).

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The evidence of the risks is the exact opposite. When we have had costs from researching Reaper, those costs have not been debilitative to our overall effort. When we have had successes, those successes have far outstripped all the costs combined. The cost-benefit ration from the Derilect Reaper alone is astounding.

Maybe I'm missing something, what did the Derelict Reaper research produce? The IFF was only gained by Shepard taking it, the research team dug it out but provided no data or anything and added to the challenge of getting the IFF (although that might be offset by them having dug it out, something that was pure coincidence).

Researching parts of Sovereign produced better data, again that's a destroyed and incomplete Reaper providing greater benefits at lower risk compared to the study of intact Reaper artifacts.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wholy unsupported is not what I'm arguing. Largely unsupported, and largely weak, is.

The arguments in favour of keeping the base aren't any stronger, both rely on guesswork and hopefulness.  Destroying the base focusses on past failures, past problems, the cost of resources and the unreliable nature of Cerberus while keeping the base focusses on potential gains and not giving up a potential resource.

[nevar00]

We don't really need to start up another discussion about how all of Cerberus's experiments tend to screw up, do we? He trusted the wrong people. Kai Leng failed to get the job done without Grayson letting off his message. I wouldn't really call Cerberus responsible for getting things under control either: considering Anderson is the one who pretty much defeated Grayson. Leng just put the final bullet in his head once he was more or less dying on the floor.

Fine, they couldn't have injected him with any foreign materials. Then make sure there's a remote controlled canister of gas in his prison room or something. They didn't take all the precautions they should have taken because TIM is a cocky bastard and it came back to bite him in the butt. Besides I thought you were thought your reasons through 'logically', using "paragon" as an insult hardly makes you seem unbiased.

[nevar00]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

We don't really need to start up another discussion about how all of Cerberus's experiments tend to screw up, do we?

I've got time. Cerberus took appropriate precautions. You cannot blame them for intervention by an outside party. That's like driving a tanker truck, having somebody shoot with an RPG, and then claiming the driver was careless.

Kai Leng judged TIM was more valuable. Thanks to his decision Grayson was eventually stopped and Cerberus at least survived. You know who Cerberus is, right? They are the only group taking the appopriate steps to stop the coming apocalypse.

It was Leng who stopped Grayson by using the student biotic to surprise him. It was Leng who got Anderson and co a ship.

All Anderson and the turians did was screw everything up.

Ceberus is no innocent tanker truck driver though.  They're a pro-human terrorist group with a lot of enemies, and they knew Grayson had sent an encrypted message to someone right as Kai broke into his apartment.  It isn't too much to believe he just sent some damaging intel to someone who could help him out.

And again if he took all the appropriate steps he should have made sure that Grayson could not have escaped, regardless of what happened.  TIM didn't know what implanting that Reaper tech would do.  As I said that whole problem could have been solved by making sure a poison gas or something could have been vented into his cell or even all the nearby rooms if something went wrong.

Actually using Grayson at all was a terrible idea.  They could have experimented on any person they wanted to, but TIM picked the guy who he wanted to take out revenge on.  That cost him in the long run, as the guy had info on Cerberus.  

Fair point on the biotic kid, although I'm pretty sure Grayson was nearly dead by that time (didn't Anderson put a few shotgun rounds in his gut?)  All he ended up doing was saving Sanders' life, which had he had his way she would have been killed anyway.  

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Burn, baby, burn....

[Raisatihane]

nevar00 wrote...
Ceberus is no innocent tanker truck driver though.  They're a pro-human terrorist group ...

Cerberus r terrorists? aha... well.
Turn a table now. Terrorist for one man is freedom fighter for other (no need to forget that) In this case - they humans. So.. till my char wont have tentacles in ME3.. i like them.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Smeelia wrote...

Actually my point was that neither side can provide it, we're mostly left with speculation based on what we've seen before and what we hope for/believe in to make the final decision.[/quote]Not all speculation and trends are equal.

[quote]
The IFF was still in the Reaper, just relocated to a certain part of it and the fact that it was there was apparently coincidental since they didn't even know it was relevant at the time. [/quote]'Just relocated' also describes what Shepard did. It's far more than 'just', even as part of a larger effort at studying the Reaper.


[quote]Overlord didn't find a way to control Geth, certainly not one that can be controlled/reproduced and ultimately we're not closer to finding how to control Geth than we were with the knowledge of temporary hacks (which at least work) and the incident of Saren/Sovereign influencing them with normal manipulation.[/quote]That is directly contrary to Overlord itself.

[quote]
  Teltin didn't produce any significant results that could be re-used. [/quote]Which, of course, is why we don't find biotic upgrade technology that still constitutes an imprevement of squad biotic performance even decades after Teltin.

And, of course, Jack now no longer exists, and the various surgeries practiced on her and used elsewhere (like biotic-suppression drug immunity) no longer exist either.

[quote]
The really strange thing is that these projects all seem to have been closed down and given up on (with the possible exception of Overlord although that's not clear) rather than remade with follow up projects using whatever data was available from before, the only reason for that would be if it was proven that they wouldn't work (which doesn't seem to be conclusive in most cases) or if they just couldn't afford it or didn't feel it worthwhile (perhaps more likely).[/quote]Teltin was scavenged and then piggy-backed onto the Ascension project. Overlord never shuts down regardless. The Reaper crew was on pause until pressing need overcame hesitation. None were permanently dropped.
[quote]
The disasters did have consequences such as the loss of resources, life and so on (all significant investments for very little back, with most benefits only being available by coincidence and luck). [/quote]The 'so on' hasn't amounted to much. Every life may be priceless, but even a thousand lives is an insiginficant pittance when weighed against the survival of billions, let alone trillions.

'Significant' is also highly dubious: clearly none of those failures devestated Cerberus to any notable degree, nor significantly set it back. Nor were those paths of research unworthy of pursuing in the first place.

[quote]
The case for trying another project is that it might not go wrong this time and that if it does we can clear it up, the problem being that the idea we can clear it up relies on consistency (and having Shepard around) while the idea it wont go wrong relies on a change from the normal pattern.  If things were to go the other way we'd have catastophe with no Shepard around to save us.[/quote]You're relying on the rules of drama without applying the rules of drama. Cerberus doesn't always screw up: it wouldn't survive as a feared organization if it did, nor would it be treated as such if it were helpless. Shepard doesn't see the screw ups because that's all there are: Shepard sees the screw ups because Mass Effect is a drama and a level about a non-disastrous Cerberus project isn't good for the gameplay.


These catastrophic failures had costs largely born by Cerberus and marginal areas of the galaxy. The only one that ever came close to an actual impediment of galactic preparation was Overlord, and that was fixed by Cerberus, well, sending in a team. (You.)[/quote]
[quote]
Jack's survival and use were mere coincidence, totally outwith the intended parameters and only possible with help from Shepard. [/quote]Jack's survival was an explicit intent from the Teltin facility even during the riots, and Jack's use as a biotic hero/progress for humanity was Cerberus's intent all along. Shepard brought it to fruition, but Shepard brought forth what Cerberus was always pushing for.

[quote]
The Rachni experiments and Husks could well have posed a further threat, the Rachni had already spread to other systems and needed to be stopped by Shepard and the Husks were in the process of similar results[/quote]The rachni that escaped were never an galactic threat. They couldn't breed, nor had the numbers to expand in force. Shepard was not necessary to stop them: nor is Shepard necessary to beat husks.

[quote] (at least one mission involves stopping Husks on a ship bound for another base/colony).[/quote]You'll need to find that mission, and how it links to Cerberus.
[quote]
Shepard has been cleaning up Cerberus' mess whether working with them or not, it's quite possible that the Cerberus research project guidelines have a section saying "when everything inevitably goes wrong accept that you'll probably die and wait for Shepard to come and clear things up".  It's not exactly a great plan.[/quote]Indeed. Probably why it doesn't exist.

'Cerberus always fails, always' is a player conceit. If Cerberus couldn't and didn't regularly produce results and successes, it wouldn't survive. Shepard sees the projects that fail because those are the only ones he has cause to see. Shepard is a biased perspective.

[quote]
The Mass Effect technology is expected and deliberately given by the Reapers.[/quote]And yet Mass Effect technology is the only way we are going to beat them, and the only way we have beaten them. This is unchangeable.

Simply because the Reapers intend to get somewhere doesn't mean that what we do there is ultimately for the best for them.

[quote]
  The Thanix was acquired from a destroyed Reaper, an argument in favour of destroying the base and researching the separate parts rather than researching an intact base (given that the risks have always been higher with fully intact technology). [/quote]That's nothing of the sort. There's no logical linkage between the value of the Thanix being dependent on Sovereign having died first, as if it wouldn't have worked had Sovereign been alive when studied.

The Thannix works because it was technology, not because the Reaper it was copied from was destroyed.

[quote]
EDI was mostly AI tech that already existed. [/quote]EDI's exceptional performance against the Collectors is in large part due to direct pieces of Sovereign's AI warfare capabilities being installed.
[quote]
We're not in a position to reproduce the IFF [/quote]Cerberus already has.
[quote]
(and it's not really valuable technology going forward anyway) [/quote]Of course it is: with the Reaper IFF, we have largely negated one of the Reapers primary advantages in war, which was to be able to lock out the Relays to all non-Reapers.

Moreover, even without going forward, it was an absolute requirement to get to the point where we could move forward.
[quote]
and it almost destroyed the mission with the outcome having been a result of significant luck and against probability.[/quote]And yet it didn't, because we could handle it (by anyone freeing EDI to address it: hardly requiring luck or against probability), and it was absolutely necessary to cross the Omega relay.


[quote]
We've been pretty lucky, pretty often to not have already lost.  It's worth studying the technology but carrying on doing so in such a reckless (and Cerberus standard) fashion just isn't wise.  One day we might run into problems that Shepard can't fix.  Blowing up the base doesn't prevent it from being studied altogether, it just greatly reduces the risk of it being harmful [/quote]Except, it really doesn't. The argumnents for why it would be safer (destroying the systems that could be dangerous) also applies to the boons (destroying the systems that could be beneficial). Remnants that can be beneficial are still countered by remnants that can be harmful, while in no respect does blowing up the base even necessitate that the dangers are located (or dependent on) the base itself.

[quote]
(as mentioned, the study of a destroyed Sovereign had much greater benefits with much lower risks than studying anything intact).[/quote]Since we have yet to have an opportunity to study an intact Reaper, this is an entirely unsupported claim.

[quote]
Maybe I'm missing something, what did the Derelict Reaper research produce? The IFF was only gained by Shepard taking it, the research team dug it out but provided no data or anything and added to the challenge of getting the IFF (although that might be offset by them having dug it out, something that was pure coincidence).[/quote]The IFF alone would be enough, even if there is nothing else (a claim that can neither be proven or disproven). Shepard isn't a scientist, nor would he have cause to know where or how to find it like the research team without being indoctrinated.

To claim that Cerberus looking for the Reaper IFF was pure coincidence is also unsupported. Cerberus didn't know the importance of the IFF or its relevance to the Omega Relay, but that doesn't mean they weren't looking for such a thing.
[quote]
Researching parts of Sovereign produced better data, again that's a destroyed and incomplete Reaper providing greater benefits at lower risk compared to the study of intact Reaper artifacts.[/quote]Besides the ridiculous schewing of time frame (two years to research Sovereign's pieces, no equivalent time frame to study the Derilect Reaper, especially when temporarily abandoned), what besides EDI came from studying Sovereign that matches the value of the IFF in stopping the Collectors and opening the gates to understanding more technology?
[quote]
The arguments in favour of keeping the base aren't any stronger, both rely on guesswork and hopefulness.  [/quote]And the presence of technology, and narrative, codex, lore, and specific trends of capitalizing on advanced technology...
[quote]
Destroying the base focusses on past failures, past problems, the cost of resources and the unreliable nature of Cerberus while keeping the base focusses on potential gains and not giving up a potential resource.[/quote]Since all decision making, by its nature, needs to be forward thinking, focusing on past failures and throwing away potential resources is the problem.

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

While Anderson and the Turians take some of the blame, had TIM been halfway competent they never would have found the base, nevermind gotten into it.  Hell if TIM was remotely competent Grayson would have had a 'self destruct button' implanted into him from the beginning. 

No, Anderson and the turians take all the blame. TIM took appropriate precautions. Simply implanting Grayson with anything would ruin the experiment since the idea is to study the Reaper implants themselves. You don't want anything getting in the way.

Sorry, Paragon, the fault is on you. Your buddies blew open the door. Thankfully Cerberus got the situation under control.

If TIM hadn't been so petty as to abduct Grayson instead of having Kai Leng kill him outside of the club, Grayson sent the information when the Cerberus team came in with their dart guns, which caused Kahlee to go to Anderson and subsequently the Turians. If TIM had gotten a criminal or abducted someone random (lord knows he's done that before) then Retribution would never have happened and they could have executed the person on schedule like they were supposed to. Face it, A Reaper Avatar got out, killed countless people, got information on every biotic in the Ascensipn program and transmitting said data to the Reapers, because TIMmy was mad that someone would dare to choose their adopted daughter over him, which he caused when he got impatient and told them to use stronger stuff, leading to Gillian's siezure which prompted them to go on the run in the first place, and then if they had let Gillian go but they decided to go and attack the flotilla where Kahlee convinced Grayson that TIM didn't have his daughter's best interests in mind.
In other words: Ah yes "Anderson is responsible" we have dismissed that claim.

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

If TIM hadn't been so petty...

Again, circumstance and luck. Capturing Grayson would have resulted in preventing him from releasing the data if Grayson hadn't been in the kitchen when Kai Leng entered. You are grasping at straws here.

You are again blaming the truck driver after you shot at him.

If the truck driver tortured someone in the back of their rig and made them into an avatar for an ancient evil wanting to wipe out all life, yeah I would blame him for it getting out. That does not change the fact that Kai Leng could have assassinated Grayson and fled Omega, but TIM wanted him alive to torture and experiement on, thus leading to Grayson's chance when the attack started to transfer the files and wipe his terminal.

[nevar00]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]nevar00 wrote...

Ceberus is no innocent tanker truck driver though.  They're a pro-human terrorist group...[/quote]

They are not terrorists. Terrorists are public in their actions but Cerberus prefers to remain secret. They are fundamentally no different from the STG or the Spectre. The only difference is that their loyalty is to humanity and not the Citadel or Salarian Union. [/QUOTE]

The only difference is that the STG is backed by the Salarian government: Cerberus are not backed by the Alliance or any human government (at least as far as we know, and we can't really assume otherwise at this point).  

Just about every NPC in the game refers to them as terrorists: I always assumed they commited some acts that we never really hear about.  Whether they are terrorists or not though is not the point: they still have a lot of enemies and when they knew that Grayson had sent an encrypted message to someone right as he was under attack, they should have at least taken a few extra precautions at the base where the experiments would take place.
[QUOTE]
[quote]nevar00 wrote...

And again if he took all the appropriate steps he should have made sure that Grayson could not have escaped, regardless of what happened.[/quote]

TIM cannot possibly prepare for every single possible scenario. He is only human after all and he only has so much money and so many personnel. Stop trying to shirk responsibiliy for this debacle. It was Anderson's careless raid that set Grayson free, it was not Cerberus. You can't blow open a secure lab with all your might and then blame the people running the lab. You let them out (you in this case being the turians, not 'you').
 
[quote]nevar00 wrote...

TIM didn't know what implanting that Reaper tech would do.[/quote]

Of-course not. If TIM knew what the Reaper tech would do he wouldn't have needed to do the experiment. Again, he can't be expected to prepare for every possible scenario. How could he predict that a hostile army would suddenly kick down his door without warning or provocation? [/QUOTE]

Exactly: he didn't know what the Reaper tech would do completely, but given how powerful the Reapers are, how advanced their technology is, and how powerful Saren was when he was implanted, he should have taken extra precautions to make sure Grayson would die should anything happen.  Especially after finding out about Grayson's encrypted message.  He should have... prepared for the worst case scenario.


[QUOTE]Going after Grayson was not a mistake. Leaving him free would have been far more risky. Eventually something might have happened to Grayson and the data would have been released anyway. The best option was to eliminate him when the chance arose. Grayson only got off his message because he was lucky. If he hadn't been in the kitchen when Kai Leng entered he'd have been taken into custody with nobody the wiser. Leng was just unlucky. [/QUOTE]

Then he should have had a sniper take out Grayson in the club or something.  But no, he wanted to take him in alive so he could torture and exact his revenge because TIM let his petty grudge get the better of him and in the end it turned on him.  

[QUOTE][quote]Nevar00 wrote...

Fair point on the biotic kid, although I'm pretty sure Grayson was nearly dead by that time (didn't Anderson put a few shotgun rounds in his gut?)[/quote]

I don't recall if Anderson shot him or not, but that wouldn't have stopped him. Grayson had been through an entire firefight and that didn't slow him. Grayson would have escaped if not for Leng's clever thinking.

[/quote][/QUOTE]

I actually had the book nearby so for the hell of it I glanced through the end.  It does say that the damage from the chase on Omega and the bullets it took from Anderson had nearly killed it and one more shotgun round would have finished him off.  But whatever, it doesn't really matter who stopped him in the long run but who let it get this far.

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Just about every NPC in the game refers to them as terrorists...

NPC's are biased. Cerberus is villified as a matter of politics. It is in the interests of aliens to see humanity held back. They don't want humans rising to any kind of prominence because when humanity gains others stand to lose. Terrorism however is overt, Cerberus is secret.

nevar00 wrote...

Exactly: he didn't know what the Reaper tech would do completely, but given how powerful the Reapers are, how advanced their technology is, and how powerful Saren was when he was implanted, he should have taken extra precautions to make sure Grayson would die should anything happen.

Shame on him for not anticipating invasion by an entire fleet. There are limits to what a person can do. The blame is on the turians and especially Anderson for attacking in the first place and extracting Grayson without first verifying that he was safe to release.

Nevar00 wrote...
but who let it get this far.

Which would be Anderson for setting him lose in the first place. The raid was a bad idea from the start. Anderson knew they were working against the Reapers. Anderson did a lot of damage.

How could the Turians  (since Anderson was still on the citadel at that time) verify that he was safe for release, I doubt Grayson would have said "yes" if the Turians asked if he was a Reaper or otherwise a threat to them.

[Barquiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Just about every NPC in the game refers to them as terrorists...

NPC's are biased. Cerberus is villified as a matter of politics. It is in the interests of aliens to see humanity held back. They don't want humans rising to any kind of prominence because when humanity gains others stand to lose. Terrorism however is overt, Cerberus is secret.

Biased NPCs like Cerberus Operative Jacob Taylor...or "no big fan of aliens" Ashley Williams?

[nevar00]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Shame on him for not anticipating invasion by an entire fleet. There are limits to what a person can do. The blame is on the turians and especially Anderson for attacking in the first place and extracting Grayson without first verifying that he was safe to release.

No, but he damn well should have been prepared to deal with Grayson, should he had gotten too powerful or escaped his room. 

Nevar00 wrote...
but who let it get this far.

Which would be Anderson for setting him lose in the first place. The raid was a bad idea from the start. Anderson knew they were working against the Reapers. Anderson did a lot of damage.

Anderson takes some heat for it, but so does TIM for not taking the proper precautions and for letting his grudge get involved in the project.

Modifié par nevar00, 05 mars 2011 - 02:05 .

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

How could the Turians  (since Anderson was still on the citadel at that time) verify that he was safe for release, I doubt Grayson would have said "yes" if the Turians asked if he was a Reaper or otherwise a threat to them.

Put him under observation and interrogate him. What if he'd been infected with a dangerous plague? It was stupid to just let him out.

The only physical sign of illness could be attributed to Red Sand and the appearance was just because of TIM's project.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They are not terrorists. Terrorists are public in their actions but Cerberus prefers to remain secret. They are fundamentally no different from the STG or the Spectre. The only difference is that their loyalty is to humanity and not the Citadel or Salarian Union.

Semantics. What term would you prefer? "Enemy combatants?" or simply "The Enemy?" Last I checked the STG and Spectres weren't actively attempting universal domination. Technically Saren was, but that wasn't as a Spectre.

TIM cannot possibly prepare for every single possible scenario. He is only human after all and he only has so much money and so many personnel. Stop trying to shirk responsibiliy for this debacle. It was Anderson's careless raid that set Grayson free, it was not Cerberus. You can't blow open a secure lab with all your might and then blame the people running the lab. You let them out (you in this case being the turians, not 'you'). 

In Ascension, TIM's oversight of the project consists of him waiting for a news report to tell him it went badly or his agent to tell him it went well. He was taken by surprise by what happened. The implication is that he doesn't prepare for any possible scenario let alone every possible scenario.
 

Of-course not. If TIM knew what the Reaper tech would do he wouldn't have needed to do the experiment. Again, he can't be expected to prepare for every possible scenario. How could he predict that a hostile army would suddenly kick down his door without warning or provocation?

Going after Grayson was not a mistake. Leaving him free would have been far more risky. Eventually something might have happened to Grayson and the data would have been released anyway. The best option was to eliminate him when the chance arose. Grayson only got off his message because he was lucky. If he hadn't been in the kitchen when Kai Leng entered he'd have been taken into custody with nobody the wiser. Leng was just unlucky.

It is unlikely that eliminating Grayson would have negated his threats against TIM at the end of Ascension.

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

There was no need to 'shoot back' after a point: genocide was not a necessity for ending the bloodshed.[/quote]

Pardon, but genocide never happened nor was it attempted, and I don't think you understand the scale of Krogan reproduction.

[quote]There is cultural change, and there is identity death, but using Reaper technology does not make us Reapers.[/quote]

Ah, I think you misunderstood the degree of the concern. The reason Cerberus were studying thorians and rachni  (and likely although not specificly stated, the effects of thresher maws) was to create super soldiers. That coupled with the degree to which Shepard is cybered up and to which lazarus is based on Reaper tech leads to the plausability and indeed probability that given the tech from the base, TIM might well want to take that further and try to build 'friendly' reapers. Which would indeed make us reapers.


[quote]Funnily enough, I was thinking the same about you, and then some.[/quote]

Direct insults are not counter-arguements, and you were the one arguing that survival is all that matters. I take it that you accept my point that survival includes identity survival?

[quote]We can easily destroy their cruisers, and intercept their other cruisers, at the point we destroyed their first. We achieved spacial superiority.[/quote]

Timing. We could take on one at a time easily, but two or more with just the Normandy there would have been another matter. If they defeated the Normandy and retook the base before reinforcements arrived, they would just change the code on the IFF, and/or align the base's relay to a different exit relay in Terminus.  We would have set them back, but otherwise lost, and Shepard's corpse wouldn't have been so easily recoverable this time. Indeed, they would have captured it.

Keeping the base is a gamble on timing.

[quote]
And no, that isn't the only 'safe' solution. Quarantine and enforcing a DMZ was always a possibility.[/quote]

You were arguing that shooting back is immoral, since if they don't stop fighting, then eventually you have to kill them all or at least keep killing them. That or you strand them on a world with no resources and thus kill them indirectly. Meanwhile, one ship gets away and runs far enough, and suddenly you have them rebuilding entirely for round 2. Or round 10. Or round 10,000. They reproduce faster. Long term they can sustain much higher losses, and can exploit new colonies faster.

[quote]And then, in the later progression of events, the canon told us that the Council did not believe us, and more or less buried their hands. This was a change of opinion on their parts, and the later clearly and openly supplanted the later.

What source suggests the Collectors still exist?[/quote]

Proof that they still exist isn't neccessary. No source was saying they don't exist as of the time of Shepard's decision regarding the base. Beyond that, no credible source says they don't exist. Not finding evidence of more in any given databank isn't proof. The Reaper fleet isn't even here yet and may have several major worlds worth of collectors with it for all we know.

[quote]Except the game and novels of ME2 and Retribution also go on about exactly why the Collectors weren't clear and obvious perpetrators. (Reclusive being the biggest.)[/quote]

Right, because reclusive is definative proof, because before meeting Saren, Sovereign used to stop by the Citadel prominade for tea every second tuesday, played bridge with TIM, Udina and Aria on wednesdays, and saturday was bowling night. Just because any given NPC says something doesn't mean they have come to a legitimate or rational conclusion.

[quote]Since the Council and Alliance never deny that the main body of the Geth exist, your point is rather... pointless.[/quote]

Really? Cite any reference ANYWHERE to either acknowledging the heretics as a separate entity. I am not sure they even do after Legion let alone before.

[quote]Why would high technology have to be combat-dedicated? 

The answer is: it isn't. The two are in no way mutually required, and the Collector MO was research and development. I just spent seven of the last nine hours in an engineering research center. It has enough electronics and computers to change history if it were sent back to, say, the seventies. But there wasn't a gun in there.[/quote]

The only thing we have seen that they might be superior in is in scanning and detection. I do acknowledge that their might be useful tech there, I just don't treat it as a given nor that it will be decisively useful.

[quote]You're unfamiliar with the tales of Iraq under Saddam ordering civilian electronic goods (including game boys) from the US, aren't you? Nor are you familiar with the Toyota War. Even today, on this planet, civilian sector technology from first-world countries can provide significant military advantages to third-world countries.

If we had a Walmart from today go back thirty years, that would be a scientific coup of the century, just from the electronics department alone. A mere thirty years.[/quote]

That wasn't my statement though. I acknowledge that he base could have useful tech. I just don't acknowledge that the advances are neccessarily sufficient to warrant the risk. The base is of greater strategic importance to the reapers, unless we are going to make reapers ourselves. That doesn't mean it has no strategic importance to us.

There are plenty of examples in many many wars of spiking guns, scuttling ships or otherwise destroying captured equipment that you feel you may not be able to hold. There is arguably a compromise solution which wasn't considered, mind.... purging the base, taking anything that looked valuable (between Mordin and Tali, if both lived there should be some significant ability to make such assessments), then blow the base..... but that would require the writers give us meaningful compromise or non-expedient options.

[quote]I'm saying that if we see the Collectors having dangerous, advanced tech that surpases our own, and we're aware that the Reapers have dangerous, advanced tech in advance of our own, and we know that the Collector Base is their in-galaxy source for developing, creating, and maintaining advanced, deadly tech of their own, and if we've spent large parts of the game capturing and utilizing Collector tech to our own advantage, and if the Illusive Man tells us that there's potent and useful Collector technology in the Collector base, and if everyone in the game treats what's in the base as potent and usable technology, and if not one person in the game has disputed that the technology can be used, and if in fact the concerns of the teammates upon keeping the base are that TIM can and will use it...

Then I have strong standing to say that there both is technology in the base, and that it can be used.[/quote]

We captured the only superior collector tech that we know of, though.... the swarms. I would like to repeat,  do consider it a judgement call though and not clear cut, but in that I don't think it is clear cut for keeping it either.

[quote]You had the wit and wisdom to jump in the middle of an argument in which the prior person was arguing from the other direction.

No reason both arguments against the base (that there's nothing to be had in the base : that what's in the base is impossible to study/too dangerous to study) can't be wrong.[/quote]

I agree it is a judgement call. That doesn't mean that if I see an arguement I disagree with that I won't challenge it though.

Not responding to the rest of your post, in that it sounds like we might be more or less on the same page here. Again I'll still challenge any given point I disagree with though, as you will

[Arijharn]

Maybe I'm dense, but could someone hurry up and explain to me what they have in store to beat the Reapers if they destroy the base, because so far I've only ever seen people dodge the issue.

Hint; successfully uniting everyone to support you is as likely as drawing anything from the base itself, it also implies that somehow you couldn't also 'unite everyone' if you also have the Collector Base, and finally no current technology exists that can breech a Reaper's shield technology so even if you did manage to unite everyone, everyone would be like firing blanks which is completely useless. Sure, you might look good on holovids, but then everyone will die when the Reapers mop up.

The most absurd thing is though if someone says: "We have the Thanix! We don't need Collector/Reaper technology" while conveniently forgetting the fact that the Thanix came from successfully reverse-engineering technology from the Reaper carcass of Sovereign. That's assuming of course that the Thanix will be able to be mass-deployed anyway in time for the Reapers (or are people stupid enough to think that the Normandy will be able to solo the Reaper fleet?) and it also assumes that even the Thanix can penetrate Reaper shields/armour.

There is evidence that the base is at least useful, because we have evidence that says that they are in advance of galactic standard. Even if we can't mass-produce Collector technology, then it seems reasonable to assume that technology found inside the Collector base could be used to jump-start our own independent development.

[jeweledleah]

something to ponder. we already have so much reaper based technology, including unshackled EDI and all the uploaded information. do we even need the base? is the risk of it being misused by TIm worth the minuscule advantage it may provide?