803 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

jeweledleah wrote...

something to ponder. we already have so much reaper based technology, including unshackled EDI and all the uploaded information. do we even need the base? is the risk of it being misused by TIm worth the minuscule advantage it may provide?

Hm.

We don't know what TIM will do with the base if you kept it.

We don't know how great or little its value will be if you kept it.

So, making any comparisons at this point may be a bit.. premature?

[Arijharn]

jeweledleah wrote...

something to ponder. we already have so much reaper based technology, including unshackled EDI and all the uploaded information. do we even need the base? is the risk of it being misused by TIm worth the minuscule advantage it may provide?

Yes, because we'd still need to get to the point where TIM could misuse it. I don't think you can truly trust TIM beyond everything, but I do trust him in his sincereity of stopping the Reapers because they threaten him and his goals as much as they threaten everyone elses

Or do people truly believe that 'love and friendship' (to quote Shandepared -- I know he totally still reads these forums) is enough to defeat the Reapers, and I'm sorry -- but anyone who truly thinks that is completely ignorant (dare I say it; stupid) and more than just a little naive.  Love or friendship isn't goint to stop a Reaper-Thanix from melting the hull of a cruiser.

It took the 5th fleet to destroy Sovereign, and Sovereign still smacked the fleet around, and when they finally did destroy Sovereign it wasn't entirely because of the 5th fleet anyway.

[Rekkampum]

Arijharn wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

something to ponder. we already have so much reaper based technology, including unshackled EDI and all the uploaded information. do we even need the base? is the risk of it being misused by TIm worth the minuscule advantage it may provide?

Yes, because we'd still need to get to the point where TIM could misuse it. I don't think you can truly trust TIM beyond everything, but I do trust him in his sincereity of stopping the Reapers because they threaten him and his goals as much as they threaten everyone elses

Or do people truly believe that 'love and friendship' (to quote Shandepared -- I know he totally still reads these forums) is enough to defeat the Reapers, and I'm sorry -- but anyone who truly thinks that is completely ignorant (dare I say it; stupid) and more than just a little naive.  Love or friendship isn't goint to stop a Reaper-Thanix from melting the hull of a cruiser.

It took the 5th fleet to destroy Sovereign, and Sovereign still smacked the fleet around, and when they finally did destroy Sovereign it wasn't entirely because of the 5th fleet anyway.

What's so ignorant about love or friendship?

[Marcy3655]

the decisions you make in ME2 could have dire consequences in ME3...

hmmm...

[Marcy3655]

which is why i have both types of saves just in case...

[Rekkampum]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...

What's so ignorant about love or friendship?

They are not enough to win wars. Wars are won by superior tactics, technology, economics, and logistics.

Of course they aren't. But neither is superior tactics, technology, economics, and logistics. A house divided will surely fall.

[Rekkampum]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...

Of course they aren't. But neither is superior tactics, technology, economics, and logistics. A house divided will surely fall.

Alliances between nations are based upon mutual interests, practical interests. They are not based on friendship or even good will. If the interests don't align they will not be close, period.

You don't have the knowledge nor expertise to verify that, so I'll ignore it. Either way though, I'm pretty sure nations trapped within an apocalytpic threat as great as the Reapers will soon find a common interest, regardless of their differences.

[jeweledleah]

thing is - we already have all that information. we have scans, downloads, etc EDI just hasn't finished processing all of it yet. do we need to have that technology in TIM's hands though? that is the question. we didn't destroy the information about the collector technology - all that is still in Normandy's databanks.

you cannot save the universe with love and friendship along, but it seems like giving collector technology to TIM is kinda like agreeing with Saren that its better to live as mindless slaves then die fighting. you'd be alive, sure, but is it worth it?

TIM sets up the situation as if he's the only one doing anything, he stonewalls you, he isolates you and surrounds you with mostly people of his choosing (and its not like Tali the quarian, or Garrus the vigilante are exactly in the know of inner workings of the council, alliance and their plans) he manipulates you. Even Mordin is no longer in a thick of it, despite being formerly stg. But is this a reality, or only a construct set up by TIM to manipulate you into furthering his power plans?

Yes he wants to survive, so he will not sabotage the immediate defeat of the reapers, but giving a base to TIM is like letting Morrigan go through dark ritual, getting pregnant and all. Worth it? maybe, maybe not.

all I know is that destroying the base is safer, given that we already have the information from it.

[Xilizhra]

What did it take to stop Sovereign last time? An entire fleet and that fleet was decimated in the process.

Actually, all it took was Sovereign possessing Saren and then Shepard killing it. Obviously, we can't expect every Reaper to do this, but it's worth pointing out.

[Xilizhra]

Jewel, if you really believe that, then answer me this: why did TIM ask you to spare the base at all? If EDI already ahd all the information then the choice at the end would be meaningless. EDI was forwarding all of her findings to TIM anyway so he'd have no reason to antagonize you. He wouldn't care if you kept the base or not.

He wants full control of the hardware to solidify his position over the galaxy's other forces, without allowing Shepard any control over who gets the data.

[jeweledleah]

Xilizhra wrote...

Jewel, if you really believe that, then answer me this: why did TIM ask you to spare the base at all? If EDI already ahd all the information then the choice at the end would be meaningless. EDI was forwarding all of her findings to TIM anyway so he'd have no reason to antagonize you. He wouldn't care if you kept the base or not.

He wants full control of the hardware to solidify his position over the galaxy's other forces, without allowing Shepard any control over who gets the data.

this.

in a short run, it might make defeating reapers slightly easier.  in a long run, you might be jumping out of a frying pan and into the fire.

it could be compared to letting Kasumi keep the graybox, or saving Genophage research.  except Mordin and Kasumi have proven that they can be relied upon, can be trusted.  TIM has proven the exact oposite.

there's a merit to both keeping the base and destroying it.  I'm trying to show that dwstroying it is not an automatic loss agaisnt the reapers, but rather a tougher but in some ways cleaner solution.

edited to add - notice that he asks you to keep it after EDI is unshackled and therefore no longer under his control

Modifié par jeweledleah, 05 mars 2011 - 04:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

in a short run, it might make defeating reapers slightly easier.  in a long run, you might be jumping out of a frying pan and into the fire.

So you would rather lessen your chances at defeating the Reapers than risk humanity being a dominant power in the galaxy? Do you honestly feel TIM is worse than the Reapers?

See my post about "Shepard--a Reaper avatar?" to see why I don't quite trust TIM to be really working against the Reapers as much as he says he is. Even if he's being honest about that, I don't know if his megalomania ("Cerberus is humanity") wouldn't get in the way of the war effort if he had the base.

[Arijharn]

You're assuming that Cerberus has the inclination of actively oppressing other species, but the key word here is assume. My wise old English teacher used to like using a certain saying in regards to the word assume; 'to assume makes an ass out of u and me.'

Even still, your position is predicated on the belief that Cerberus represents a greater threat than the Reapers, and that is absolutely nonsense considering:
a) The Reapers have existed at least 37 million years.
The Reapers apparently seek to harvest every 50,000 years in 'cycles' of destruction every so often and we can safely suspect that during the events of ME2 and planet scanning, we come across several worlds that bear evidence of galactic bombardment to a scale previously unheard of, and we know that the Protheans suffered the same fate too.
c) 37 million divided by 50,000 equals 740... so that means that providing a species has emerged dominate every 50,000 years, then we can suspect that at least 740 species have been wiped out as operations carried out by the Reaper menace during that time period. Surely you can put that into perspective when compared against Cerberus operations, which has been far smaller than the Reapers and even the Council as a whole... after all, Cerberus hasn't actually sanctioned genocide.

How is it a 'cleaner' solution? You can't even plot your path to victory like you can plot a path with saving the base. All you have offered is nebulous claims and that's it... and nebulous claims aren't going to win you any victories.

[Xilizhra]

True. Our won victories will be proven in ME3.

[silverignika]

I've always been extremely hesitant to keep the base, and hence have destroyed it in most of my playthroughs. However, I always feel like I'm giving up an incredible resource in the process.

If I had the option of getting the Alliance, or better yet, the Council to study the base, then I would sleep easy after saving it. However, it always has to go to Cerberus, with it's long history of bloodshed and complete disregard for human life (ironic, isn't it?). Either decision is ugly.

But even if I could give it to organizations I trust, I'd still worry about the dangers of meddling so deep in what we know so little about. I can't help but worry that the base could still be used remotely by the Reapers. We know that they can communicate faster than light (probably instantly), seeing as Harbinger can possess Collector drones in real-time combat. This leads me to speculate that the Reapers would know exactly what people studying the base were doing.

Could this negate their research? If they know what we are learning, the Reapers could possibly better prepare themselves for the inevitable confrontation between us and them. That might even be worse than destroying the base, seeing as destroying the base would not allow them to know what we are doing.

Or maybe the Reapers have long had listening bugs all across the Galaxy, complete with FTL communicators. They are hyper-advanced machines, so they would almost certainly be able to process all that information. Perhaps this is one way they can complete their genocides so smoothly.

On a slight side note, I now wonder why they haven't figured out how to travel instantaneously. They can clearly communicate at infinite speed, so why not teleportation? But I digress, this isn't important.

There is also the ever-present danger of indoctrination. As we know from the Derelict Reaper, the ability to indocrinate remains millions of years after a Reaper death. Hell, I'll bet the dead Human-Reaper can easily indocrinate if you stay too close to it. We also don't know if there is any possible way to prevent indoctrination. Mr. Paragon might jump on that and say "So we can't throw people at this problem! We've already seen it is impossible to prevent, so we'd better play it safe." Mr. Renegade, on the other hand, might say "That's exactly why we need to save the base! One of the greatest weapons of the Reapers is indoctrination, and this is our best shot at figuring it out. Our survival might hinge on that knowledge alone!"

Saving the Base could have incredible advantages, even if it's in the hands of Cerberus. Just a few salvaged Sovereign chunks gave us the Thanix Cannon. A breif study in the millions of years old Derelict Reaper gave us the IFF. Just imagine the possibilities with an intact, Reaper processing machine. We could learn how they build Reapers! If we know how to assemble them, we know how to disassemble them.

Ultimately, there is very little data to make a decision from. I still feel queasy with either choice, but I guess that's leadership for you. I truly don't know what to do. I leave that to my angry forum comrades.

[DPSSOC]

jeweledleah wrote...
thing is - we already have all that information. we have scans, downloads, etc EDI just hasn't finished processing all of it yet. do we need to have that technology in TIM's hands though? that is the question. we didn't destroy the information about the collector technology - all that is still in Normandy's databanks.

And that might be the case but there is only one way to know for sure.  Also one thing EDI couldn't grab, and you've only grabbed a single example, is hardware.  Physical resources aboard the base are yet uncatalogued and unknown.  Could be nothing, could be something, is it not better to check though?

jeweledleah wrote...
you cannot save the universe with love and friendship along, but it seems like giving collector technology to TIM is kinda like agreeing with Saren that its better to live as mindless slaves then die fighting. you'd be alive, sure, but is it worth it?

What?  How?  When?  Why?  Ok exactly how is TIM's "Keep the base we can study and advance" in anyway comparable to Saren's "surrender is the only way any of us survive."?  I truly am not seeing it.

jeweledleah wrote...
Yes he wants to survive, so he will not sabotage the immediate defeat of the reapers, but giving a base to TIM is like letting Morrigan go through dark ritual, getting pregnant and all. Worth it? maybe, maybe not.

You survive to defend the galaxy (world) from the lesser threats that still persist (like Cerberus if you wish) rather than falling to the greater one and accomplishing nothing from there on out.  After establishing that you are the thing holding the galaxy together; it's worth it.

jeweledleah wrote...
all I know is that destroying the base is safer, given that we already have the information from it.

Again there is only one way we can know that with any level of certainty.  EDI would have been combatting a highly complex AI (Harbinger) in trying to mine data.  Keep in mind she was only able to gather a single useful piece of info from the Collector Vessel which would most likely have much less security.

jeweledleah wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Jewel, if you really believe that, then answer me this: why did TIM ask you to spare the base at all? If EDI already ahd all the information then the choice at the end would be meaningless. EDI was forwarding all of her findings to TIM anyway so he'd have no reason to antagonize you. He wouldn't care if you kept the base or not.

He wants full control of the hardware to solidify his position over the galaxy's other forces, without allowing Shepard any control over who gets the data.

this.

in a short run, it might make defeating reapers slightly easier.  in a long run, you might be jumping out of a frying pan and into the fire.

The Reapers are the fire though.  That expression is meant to refer to avoiding something unpleasant only to run into something even more unpleasant.  Exactly what could come from TIM having the base that's worse than the Reapers?  I can think of a number of things that are almost/as bad, but nothing worse comes to mind.

[Xilizhra]

Exactly what could come from TIM having the base that's worse than the Reapers? I can think of a number of things that are almost/as bad, but nothing worse comes to mind.

Shepard leading the Reapers.