803 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...

What's so ignorant about love or friendship?

They are not enough to win wars. Wars are won by superior tactics, technology, economics, and logistics.

But they win battles in the wars, Love and Friendship make people act against their own safety like other things cannot. Love is why TIM lost at the end of Ascension.

[Xilizhra]

Look up the Sacred Band. If that won't show you that love can win battles...

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

But they win battles in the wars, Love and Friendship make people act against their own safety like other things cannot. Love is why TIM lost at the end of Ascension.

That was beautiful. Untrue (well except for that last part, admittedly), but still beautiful. ;_;

Friendship isn't enough to win battles. I'm certain the French army was filled with many friends, but that didn't save them from a harsh winter and supply lines stretched too thin.

That is why we must build a weapon that harnesses the power of Love, in the way that every time it is fired the divorce goes up 3%

[jeweledleah]

from a meta gaming perspective - Bioware will not give us a choice like that and make one of them invalid. which means that either keeping or destroying the base will result in eventual victory agaisnt the reapers.

reapers are not the fire, they are the pan we're currently cooking in.

Everything that we have encountered from cerberus so far seems to be geared towards human cerberus domination over everyone else, including other humans. mind control experiments, building malleable armies by cloning alien species, super soldiers... are you telling me that with precedence like that Tim will NOT misuse a technology like collector base? you know technology that would allow him to actually build an army to do his bidding. We know that EDI has downloaded a lot more then just one piece of information

from wiki:

EDI also gains access to "Anti-Reaper Algorithms" later in the game, and states that she devotes significant processing power to analyzing them. When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself

[Arijharn]

Yes, which sorta backs up other people's arguments that Reaper technology isn't in and of itself unsafe to use.

Cerberus may be a threat tomorrow, but today they're a strong ally. That doesn't mean you can't file away information to potentially use against them in the future, but actively dismissing them due to what they may or may not do (which is entirely based on your fears of what they represent) in the current climate (i.e., with the Reapers marching on us) is just plain silly no matter which way you like it.

We don't say you should add TIM to your Christmas card list, I'm not even saying your fears are completely unfounded, I'm just saying that in the face of galactic extinction then any idea of 'jumping from the pan into the fire' is kinda mute, since we're going to burn as is if things aren't done to mitigate the Reaper threat.

It may sound nice to believe that the Council and the Systems Alliance are working to build up its forces in sufficient quantities to defend against the Reapers, but are you really going to base the idea of defense on 'maybe's'? If so, that doesn't strike me as particularly wise.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Exactly what could come from TIM having the base that's worse than the Reapers? I can think of a number of things that are almost/as bad, but nothing worse comes to mind.

Shepard leading the Reapers.

Care to elaborate?  I can't really see that being any worse we still face extinction.

jeweledleah wrote...
from a meta gaming perspective - Bioware will not give us a choice like that and make one of them invalid. which means that either keeping or destroying the base will result in eventual victory agaisnt the reapers.

To be fair making both options equally valid (as will most likely be the case) kind of invalidates them both.

jeweledleah wrote...
reapers are not the fire, they are the pan we're currently cooking in.

And again I ask what could possibly be worse than the threat we face right now?

jeweledleah wrote...
Everything that we have encountered from cerberus so far seems to be geared towards human cerberus domination over everyone else, including other humans. mind control experiments, building malleable armies by cloning alien species, super soldiers... are you telling me that with precedence like that Tim will NOT misuse a technology like collector base? you know technology that would allow him to actually build an army to do his bidding.

 
Oh not disagreeing with you, I'm sure somewhere along the line TIM will horribly abuse the CB's potential.  However as bad as that will be it pales in comparisson to what we face now, and can be dealt with later.

jeweledleah wrote...
We know that EDI has downloaded a lot more then just one piece of information

from wiki:

EDI also gains access to "Anti-Reaper Algorithms" later in the game, and states that she devotes significant processing power to analyzing them. When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper technology herself

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I may well be, but weren't those algorithms taken directly from Sovereign which she gains access to as a result of being unshackled, not data mining Collector tech.  Admittedly still valuable but a slightly different circumstance.

[Xilizhra]

Care to elaborate? I can't really see that being any worse we still face extinction.

See "Shepard--a Reaper avatar?" And it'd basically make the extinction more guaranteed.

[Xilizhra]

Not when TIM, the one who brought Shepard back as a Reaper avatar in the first place, has control of it.

[jeweledleah]

@ DPSSOC - having both options to be valid simply means that there's more then one way to solve a problem - which is a very realistic sort of thing. there is no one true way and nor there should be. otherwise, what is the pint of having renegade/paragon system in a first place?

Death now or slavery later - you decide which one is worse. either perspective is bad and once again, choosing to deal with one problem at a time vs thinking and planning longer term are both valid strategies. nothing wrong with having different methods.

lastly - some of those may have been from sovereign, but we know for a fact that EDI had an uplink set up with collector base plus she has IFF installed, so that should have made said uplink slightly less difficult to establish.

think of it this way. Genophage research. destroying the data would not make it impossible to cure it, it would only set the search for cure back some. but it would still be possible. same idea with a base.

edited to add.  Cerberus research on derelict reaper. 

Modifié par jeweledleah, 05 mars 2011 - 06:23 .

[Arijharn]

What Saphra said; you are making a decision for everyone, and I'm not sure everyone will appreciate your sense of morals or ethics, but everyone appreciates being alive (unless... you're a member of a crazy doomsday cult).

Even if the Turian's did get bent to the yoke of humanity today, there's always hope for them tomorrow (and if they have people like Cerberus who guarantee their own sense of sovereignty -- then they'd never get to the point of being the collared in the first place), and that is vastly superior than everyone being dead... I'm honestly surprised this is an issue really.

Remember, galactic extinction means exactly that, galactic extinction. This means no more:
- humans
- Turians
- Asari
- Salarians
- Hanar, Elcor, Drell, Raloi, Rachni, Geth(?), Batarians, etc, etc, etc!

To say that they all deserve extinction because you don't like where things are going makes you a far worse 'war criminal' than anything even TIM may want, because he doesn't want extinction, whereas your actions imply it's okay because you aren't willing to make unpopular decisions.

[Sajuro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not when TIM, the one who brought Shepard back as a Reaper avatar in the first place, has control of it.

TIM would only use it for the benefit of all humankind, so I'm not too worried.

I have doubts about that, when all the chips are down he may just use it for the benefit of all TIM-kind.

[jeweledleah]

becoming puppets like collectors is just as bad as outright extinction. other races are none to happy with uppity humans as it is, even if you saved the council. they would be even less happy with slavery to humans. I can see full scale war happening and near extinction anyways.

plus who said we cannot stop the reapers without the collector base? you guys are the ones assuming that its absolutely necessary.

[jeweledleah]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

becoming puppets like collectors is just as bad as outright extinction.

Is that really what you think will happen?

What are you basing that on? I say leave the choice between death and slavery up to each individual. If in bondage, they can still choose death. Don't choose for them. Give them at least a chance to survive.

oh, I'm all about choices and giving people an option to decide what to do with their lives.  however, destroying collector base doesn't remove that choice.  keeping it, makes the necessity for that choice a lot more likely.

look at it this way,

you are locked out of your appartment. your options are - calling a locksmith to open the door, something that will take more time.  or you can break down the door, get in right now and then be stuck with repairs of the door later.  both options are valid.  both options have consequences (more lost time or more lost money)  which option would you concider a better one?  me, I'd rather call a locksmith.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not when TIM, the one who brought Shepard back as a Reaper avatar in the first place, has control of it.

TIM would only use it for the benefit of all humankind, so I'm not too worried.

Well, assuming that your idea of a benefit involves becoming a Reaper...

[jeweledleah]

heh, I see it the other way. calling the locksmith assumes long ranging consequences of broken door (base falling into wrong hands) breaking down the door now makes it easier to solve an immediate problem of being locked out (destroying the reapers), but leaves you with long range consequences of broken door that needs to be fixed, meanwhile your apartment is now in danger of robbers getting in much easier (TIM abusing it)

My assumption that TIM WILL misuse the base to increase his power is not baseless. its rooted in precedent of various Cerberus projects we encounter throughout the game.

we already have plenty of knowledge to work with. we didn't get rid of all of it, merely physical manifestation of it. if it was possible to keep the base out of TIM's hands, I'd keep it. just like I usually keep genophage research and graybox. but its not possible and to majority of my characters - its not worth the risk.

[jeweledleah]

I'm not going by novels. I'm going solely based on a game.

spoilers inc:

in ME2 we're told that TIM prefers to keep the number of cerberus projects to small numbers so that he can actually supervise them all to some extent. in ME1 we destroy a Cerberus facility that experimented on rachni - trying to get them to be malleable troops, another facility that experimented on thorian creepers, we find out that cerberus turned entire colony into husks, we learn that cerberus was not only responsible for Akuze, they also kept Toombs and experimented on him until his eventual escape, in ME2 we are lied to by TIM repeatedly, he manipulates the events endangering human colonies and people from our pasts, we meet David in project overlord and we recruit Jack - another Cerberus experiment victim. We find out that cerberus attacked Flotilla which resulted in a number of deaths and plenty of damage - to people with already limited resources. in LoSB we learn that cerberus is responsible for several assassinations, bribes and general manipulation of politics to advance their agenda. and all through that, contrary to the whole "small number of projects so that they don't get away from me" TIM (and/or Miranda) claim that they didn't know and that all those projects, ALL of them went rogue. not to mention that when you just wake up and ask Miranda about, I don't know trying to rescue survivors, she tells you that all these people are expendable.

TIM either thinks that Shepard is a gullible idiot, or he's the most incompetent organization leader ever. since he doesn't come across as particularly dumb, I tend to think he's just lying through his teeth.

yeah, Timmy boy is an altruist who's only wants what's best for humanity, suuuure.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 05 mars 2011 - 07:54 .

[tommyt_1994]

Great post there Leah, I agree.