803 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

Saphra, what you're basically saying here is that ends justify the means. it doesn't exactly go together with : "let them chose" absolutely nothing TIM does implies that his goal is to advance humanity as a whole. he only claims that it is. the way he treats everyone, including humans as expendable puppets/test subjects implies otherwise.

what I'm saying here is that the means are too costly and not worth the end result, that the methods are too risky and that end result might, just might turn out to be an example of "cure is worse then the disease"

people are NOT expendable puppets. people are are what we're trying to save in a first place.

[Praetor Knight]

^ agreed.

[Ieldra]

Saphra Deden wrote...
The most practical decision is to save it. To defeat such an ancient and established enemy you need to understand them. You also need to even the technology gap.

There are risks with keeping the base, but they are much less severe than the risks of destroying it. Reaper technology is dangerous, but that is mainly because we do not understand it. In order to mitigate the risks of Reaper tech we must examine and understand Reaper tech. You can't do that if you blow up the base.

Even if you fear TIM and human dominance of the galaxy those are both secondary concerns to defeating the Reapers. Don't sacrifice today because you are afraid of tomorrow. If TIM becomes a threat later it will mean you saved the galaxy and extinction is no longer a danger. It will mean you've won.

^This

Cerberus' ambitions don't matter in the face of galactic extinction. I don't understand how people keep ignoring that galactic extinction is the greater evil and Cerberus the lesser.

@jeweledleah:
Yes, people are expendable in a war. Ask the generals who planned the US response in WWII. They knew there would be a steep learning curve with a cost in lives after entering the war. They even calculated the number of casualties in advance. Sure, everyone wants to minimize costs in lives, but they're always there. To say anything else is delusional. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[jeweledleah]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Cerberus' ambitions don't matter in the face of galactic extinction. I don't understand how people keep ignoring that galactic extinction is the greater evil and Cerberus the lesser.

its a matter of perspective.  we can find another way to save the galaxy.

edited to add - yes I know that people are expendable in a war. soldiers and civilians both.  that doesn't justify experiments that cerberus routinely performed, long before we even knew about the reapers.
it doesn't justify becoming that which we're fightning.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 05 mars 2011 - 09:15 .

[Ieldra]

jeweledleah wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Cerberus' ambitions don't matter in the face of galactic extinction. I don't understand how people keep ignoring that galactic extinction is the greater evil and Cerberus the lesser.

its a matter of perspective.  we can find another way to save the galaxy.

Yeah - destroy what you don't understand and hope the universe will fix your problem. Sorry, but that 's wishful thinking. Of course the game will bring it about, but within the scenerio of ME2, we're literally grasping at straws to find a means against those ancient techno-gods who have destroyed countless civilizations. To destroy the base and hope another means will magically present itself to the righteous, that's inexcusable and blind.

I say that people's knee-jerk hyper-emotional reaction to TIM and Cerberus blinds them to that truth.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 mars 2011 - 09:15 .

[jeweledleah]

its not hoping for magical solution. we have the information. we have EDI, with have scans, files, tons of collected data that just needs to be processed. We have an option of rallying the galactic races together. we also have an option of removing collector technology from TIM's AND reaper grasp both. what you think they wouldn't attempt to get it back once they realized that it still existed?

I understand the pros to keeping the base, I do. in fact I'm keeping it on more then one shepard, one of them paragon and she has very cold logical reasons for it. but. its not necessary, and its not the only way. we HAVE other options. and the threat of misuse by TIM IS real and discounting it outright is also wistful thinking.

[Ieldra]

I'm not ignoring it. I only say first things first. Once we're done with the Reapers, we can deal with TIM. And if that takes two hundred years because we've made him so powerful by giving him the base, that's still better than increasing the risk of galactic extinction.

The plain fact is you do not *know* that it is not necessary. In the light of that, destroying the base without a thorough examination is a strategic mistake of the first order. If you find it's not worth it, you can always destroy it then. It's a damned Reaper factory. Where else if not here would you find anything that helps?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 mars 2011 - 09:31 .

[Dave of Canada]

The Collector Base, ahh... how I haven't seen a discussion like this in quite a while. Still the same arguments I see?

I stand in the same place. I'd rather risk the hundred of thousands of people that can die from an extremely powerful Cerberus (which I don't believe they will do) than risk galactic destruction. Though not many people feel the same because meta-gaming and being a paragon is prevalent on these boards.

[Praetor Knight]

My understanding is sacrifice without the base.

[jeweledleah]

the plain fact is also that we don't know if it IS necessary. it could be helpful. or it could be a way to give the reapers their original plan back. the danger of the base being misused by TIM is not an emotional knee jerk response - its a fact. leaving Cerberus and thus giving yourself an opportunity to rejoin the council races and to work on uniting the galaxy against a common threat is not a knee-jerk emotional response (council might be stubborn but when faced with clear evidence, they do deign to listen), its a strategic option (especially if you chose to save the council, you'll really need an assistance of Turian fleet). its a different option, but its still a viable option.

edited to add - human prosperity?  human?  what about all those other races we're supposed to be saving?  or can theygo to hell?  think we can manage to kill them off in a reaper war so that we 're not plunged into yet another galactic war right afterwards, when oh so very thankful alien nations have enough of humanity trying to run roguhshoed over everyone else?


I'm sorry to burst your bubble, oh dear ruthless, expediency is everything players, but your way is NOT the only way.  its only one of the possible ways.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 05 mars 2011 - 09:52 .

[Dave of Canada]

jeweledleah wrote...

the plain fact is also that we don't know if it IS necessary

And we don't know otherwise.

Better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 mars 2011 - 09:52 .

[jeweledleah]

Dave of Canada wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

the plain fact is also that we don't know if it IS necessary

And we don't know otherwise.

Better to have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

normaly, I'd agree.  however - this is a special case.  will we have it?  or will TIM?

you see the true issue here is you trying to justify that your decision is not only a better one, but its the only valid one.  and I'm trying to show you all that no, its not the best or the only valid choice, there are good reasons for destroying the base, you just refuse to accept them.

once again, with feeling.  Both choices have merit.  they will merely require a different strategy to work with.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 05 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

True, and without examining it we won't ever know, will we?

some things are best left unexamined, IMHO.

[Lunatic LK47]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

True, and without examining it we won't ever know, will we?

some things are best left unexamined, IMHO.

Not to mention the Reapers are not morons. What's to say they won't pull a Deus Ex Machina by using some random Reaper virus just to short-circuit the anti-Reaper weaponry? This is Cerberus we're talking about, i.e. "Results at *ALL COSTS*, and that will usually mean taking a ****load amount of shortcuts just to get the "expedient results." We sure know how that turned out with a lot of their past experiments.

[Dave of Canada]

jeweledleah wrote...

will we have it?  or will TIM?

TIM has been upfront about his motives of stopping the Reapers. He understands it. I'm not denying the possibility that he might use it for his own gains later, however he's reasonable and understands that the Reapers killing everything includes humanity.

If you keep the base and it's necessary, you stop galactic destruction and Cerberus can go around doing stuff. Whatever Cerberus does pales in comparison to what the Reapers would've done.

If you keep the base and it's unnecessary, the tech probably helped stop the Reapers anyway. Cerberus can do whatever they want, once again it would pale in comparison to what the Reapers would've done. The only difference is that you could've made do without it but without metagaming Shepard wouldn't know that and how many lives will be lost to Cerberus compared to the lives spared from the Reapers?

If you blow up the base and it's necessary, galactic destruction. Nice job breaking it, Hero.

If you blow up the base and it's unnecessary, well... party time! Heavy risk... but the prize.

Without metagame knowledge, I'd rather risk having the base with me.

[Ieldra]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

True, and without examining it we won't ever know, will we?

some things are best left unexamined, IMHO.

I challenge this assertion on a fundamental level.

Apart from that, I don't know why nobody understands the consequences of the technology gap. *Everything* that can help prevent galactic extinction *must* be examined.

[Ieldra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

will we have it?  or will TIM?

TIM has been upfront about his motives of stopping the Reapers. He understands it. I'm not denying the possibility that he might use it for his own gains later, however he's reasonable and understands that the Reapers killing everything includes humanity.

If you keep the base and it's necessary, you stop galactic destruction and Cerberus can go around doing stuff. Whatever Cerberus does pales in comparison to what the Reapers would've done.

If you keep the base and it's unnecessary, the tech probably helped stop the Reapers anyway. Cerberus can do whatever they want, once again it would pale in comparison to what the Reapers would've done. The only difference is that you could've made do without it but without metagaming Shepard wouldn't know that and how many lives will be lost to Cerberus compared to the lives spared from the Reapers?

If you blow up the base and it's necessary, galactic destruction. Nice job breaking it, Hero.

If you blow up the base and it's unnecessary, well... party time! Heavy risk... but the prize.

Without metagame knowledge, I'd rather risk having the base with me.

Exactly.

[jeweledleah]

TIM hasn't been upfront about a single thing. I'm sorry that you think that he's actually truthful with you. he's not.

[Praetor Knight]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

True, and without examining it we won't ever know, will we?

some things are best left unexamined, IMHO.

I challenge this assertion on a fundamental level.

Apart from that, I don't know why nobody understands the consequences of the technology gap. *Everything* that can help prevent galactic extinction *must* be examined.

True, unless too poorly understood.

EDI had a fight on her virtual hands if I remember correctly with her encounters, so using something that reapers are apparently intimate with is at least a huge concern, IMHO.

[Aeowyn]

jeweledleah wrote...

TIM hasn't been upfront about a single thing. I'm sorry that you think that he's actually truthful with you. he's not.

And how do you know this? His motive is stopping the Reapers. Just like Shepard main motive is. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And if you think TIM is worse than the Reapers, you really need to look at your Shepard's priorities.

[jeweledleah]

Aeowyn wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

TIM hasn't been upfront about a single thing. I'm sorry that you think that he's actually truthful with you. he's not.

And how do you know this? His motive is stopping the Reapers. Just like Shepard main motive is. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And if you think TIM is worse than the Reapers, you really need to look at your Shepard's priorities.

He lies.  constantly.  he witholds information untill its too late to do anything about it.  cosntantly. he is more of a hindrance then assistance at least half the time.  there are so many strings attached to his help, its a wonder my shepard can get anything done at all.

TIM's motives are to survive, yes, but he's not trying to save the galaxy for the sake of savign the galaxy.  i don't know his full agenda, but I do not that he's not doing anything out of the goodness of his heart.. 

the enemy of my enemy is an ally untill I can get out from under his thumb.

[Praetor Knight]

Like Shep tells Jacob with the first renegade option, before he asks about trusting him, and them heading to Freedom's Progress.

Cerberus gets once chance, and TIM loses that chance on several occasions before the Collector Base.



Edit: Grammaton Clerics checking grammar again

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 05 mars 2011 - 10:31 .