803 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Double post.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2011 - 12:19 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Raisatihane wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Ceberus is no innocent tanker truck driver though.  They're a pro-human terrorist group ...

Cerberus r terrorists? aha... well. 
Turn a table now. Terrorist for one man is freedom fighter for other (no need to forget that) In this case - they humans. So.. till my char wont have tentacles in ME3.. i like them.

Cerberus: terrorists or freedom fighters?

As to Ceberus' Idiot Ball, with Grayson and everything, that's affirmative. That's how the ME story is advanced by the writers anyway: everyone is passed one whenever necessary. Including Commander Shepard. The trick is that everyone else's Idiot Balls are so elephant-in-the-room-like that they are rarely discussed here.

And face it: in Retribution everybody (Anderson, the Tuians, Aria) just blundered around, and the Galaxy would have been screwed up big time, if it wasn't for TIM and Kai Leng coming through again and again with some coherent intellect.

[Arijharn]

jeweledleah wrote...
its a matter of perspective.  we can find another way to save the galaxy.

To be honest, this is what I find so... infuriating (if that's the right word) about this kind of response. You haven't found another way. You can't plan your way to victory, you're just hoping something comes along so you'll have a chance against the Reapers, and that's why the decision to destroy the base is plain illogical in all aspects, it's basically relegating things to a fantasy land (har, I love irony...it being a game and all ).

How do you expect to stop Indoctrination?
How do you plan to defeat Reaper shields? You  just going to throw your men, your allies into the meat grinder in the hopes that eventually you'll get the Reapers to reach their kill limit and shut down (yay Futurama references!)?
You know how Reapers are built (slushies) but you don't know if there are structural weaknesses that you can exploit to gain a further edge.

It is true however that neither side has absolutes, but the point is that by saving the base you are better positioned to answer those questions, you have the Reaper carcass in the basement, you have technological schematics for the Reaper, you have a convenient base to comb through for any possible edge.

It makes zero sense to look with suspicion at people passing by your house thinking they may break in when you've already got robbers in your door -- even if those people on the door are robbers too, deal with them all sequentially. The Reapers are the largest threat, lets deal with them (and yes, lets use Cerberus, who so far are our only ally (and how do we know they're our ally? Because they have funnelled supplies to us, because they have funnelled information to us) first.

Why is this such a hard concept to work out? You have to walk before you can run.

Modifié par Arijharn, 05 mars 2011 - 12:28 .

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

we can find another way to save the galaxy.

Like this?




But realistically, I understand that BioWare will give the paragons even chances to defeat the Reapers, even though the death toll must be a lot higher without the superior upgrades researched from the Collector Base. But the fact, that it'll be the Humans' Systems Alliance taking the heaviest losses of all, is what makes the paragons happy, isn't it?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2011 - 02:28 .

[Nodscouter]

Mm. Despite not being much for Paragon choices in general, I chose to blow it up simply because I don't trust Cerberus. If it means humanity dies, so be it. The other races are better anyway.

[Sajuro]

Arijharn wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
its a matter of perspective.  we can find another way to save the galaxy.

How do you expect to stop Indoctrination?
How do you plan to defeat Reaper shields? You  just going to throw your men, your allies into the meat grinder in the hopes that eventually you'll get the Reapers to reach their kill limit and shut down (yay Futurama references!)?
You know how Reapers are built (slushies) but you don't know if there are structural weaknesses that you can exploit to gain a further edge.

How would the base help us with any of this? the only Reaper is the larva, their technology appears to sub par to the newest tech of the races (What would Kai Leng say knowing you used a turian weapon?). When people have used the possibility of indoctrination devices getting the Cerberus crew, they were mocked by the people who kept the base yet everyone now expects a pile of them and a users book probably. The control center which probably holds the data was fried in both endings, meaning that the Reapers probably did have the security mechanism of destroying all of the data if the base was captured (and I looked it up, it is an explosion even in the renegade ending). You are wrong about one part, we know that hitting their weak point (core) will result in massive damage. Plus,  I don't think that an ancient machine race would get that way by having flaws in their structure.
I do suspect we will be getting more Avatar boss fights in ME3 to bring the Reaper's shields down.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

(What would Kai Leng say knowing you used a turian weapon?)

Lol, turians so inept cant keep their secrets!!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2011 - 02:55 .

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

(What would Kai Leng say knowing you used a turian weapon?)

Lol, turians so inept cant keep their secrets!!

Really? because he was disgusted by the idea of having to use the Turian weapon in Retribution, and TIM hates Volus cigarettes.
btw, your picture is wrong, the plan is to launch grunt out of a mass accelerator weapon so he can punch the reapers in the face.

[jeweledleah]

Arijharn wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
its a matter of perspective.  we can find another way to save the galaxy.

To be honest, this is what I find so... infuriating (if that's the right word) about this kind of response. You haven't found another way. You can't plan your way to victory, you're just hoping something comes along so you'll have a chance against the Reapers, and that's why the decision to destroy the base is plain illogical in all aspects, it's basically relegating things to a fantasy land (har, I love irony...it being a game and all ).

How do you expect to stop Indoctrination?
How do you plan to defeat Reaper shields? You  just going to throw your men, your allies into the meat grinder in the hopes that eventually you'll get the Reapers to reach their kill limit and shut down (yay Futurama references!)?
You know how Reapers are built (slushies) but you don't know if there are structural weaknesses that you can exploit to gain a further edge.

I'm not hoping that something comes along,  I already have all the nessesary information in EDi's databanks.  I also have a much better chance to use galactic alliances then if I had stayed with Cerberus. 

how would collector base help me deal with incocrination exactly?  that quiet buzz you get in your head, even on a derelict reaper - it wasn't there.  which means that if there was some information on it presentk, it was only theoretical data - which EDI then has.  We know about some of their structural weaknesses from exploring the derelict reaper and from information left over from the sovereign.  the new reaper that was constructed was obviously not the same as the old type, we need information about the older types to deal with them - and we have it.  aren't our own shields based on reaper technology?  if so we already have both information of how they are made and how to disrupt them, all we need to do now is build the means - and we don't need collector base for that.

again, to me means are important.  they make a difference.  I'm not sociopathic enough, I don't disregard people enough to just take the shortcut regardless of the cost.  I have to concider those costs, and giving TIM the based makes those costs too high.

also can we stop bringing books into this?  most people when making this decision may have possibly heard about 2 of them becasue they are mentioned in game, but for most of us - the information we use is only what you see in game.  and if you bring up meta gaming, then I counter you with - precedent shows that when it comes to major paragon/renegade choice, not only they both work out the same in the end - paragon choice usualy results in less loss of life, even if its tougher to implement (for example - virmire.  no matter what happens, no matter who you pick to stay there- the bomb goes off and research is destroyed.  however takng paragon detours results in tougher fights along the way - especialy the part about security alarm, but it saves the lives of salarians)  so from a perspective of meta gaming - paragon decision is a better one if you are trying to save more lives while renegade decisions speed up the process and in general make it easier for you personaly.  both decisions result in victory.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 05 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[jeweledleah]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

I'm not hoping that something comes along,  I already have all the nessesary information in EDi's databanks.

Confidence born of ignorance. We've been over this. If you had all the information TIM wouldn't have cared too much what you did with the base. In fact, by blowing it up you'd ensure he and only he had all the info.

Your positions on this debate are highly flawed and actually self-defeating, jeweledleah.

no you just refuse to accept that I may have a point.  its interesting how tim suddenly figures out that its possible to save the base only AFTER you unshackle EDI, isn't it?  not to mention - he tells you a lot of things, not just that..at the last possible moment, when you have fewerr options about changing it.

what if your reaction of keeping the base is as knee jerk as you think my reaction of destroying it is?  becasue I think it is.

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

I'm not hoping that something comes along,  I already have all the nessesary information in EDi's databanks.

Confidence born of ignorance. We've been over this. If you had all the information TIM wouldn't have cared too much what you did with the base. In fact, by blowing it up you'd ensure he and only he had all the info. 

Your positions on this debate are highly flawed and actually self-defeating, jeweledleah.

no you just refuse to accept that I may have a point.  its interesting how tim suddenly figures out that its possible to save the base only AFTER you unshackle EDI, isn't it?

Might have something to do with the fact that nobody had known WTF was there beyound the O-4 relay, until you actuallre travelled there. which was kinda the idea behind all the affair: go take a look, find out what the Collectors and Reapers were up to...

jeweledleah wrote...
  not to mention - he tells you a lot of things, not just that..at the last possible moment, when you have fewerr options about changing it.

what if your reaction of keeping the base is as knee jerk as you think my reaction of destroying it is?  becasue I think it is.

IDK about Saphra, but my first impulse was to blow it up. Then I listened to TIM, and decided that he might have a point.

Also, when my Shepard said "the mission was to destroy the base", the real me went: "Wait... what???"

Because the mission was (and still remains): save the friggin' Galaxy. And destroying the Base is not making it happen.

[jeweledleah]

I cannot convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced, I'm not even trying to tell you that destroying the base is a better decision, only that its a valid one.

you're going through omega 4 relay with intent to destroy the collectors. this we know from the start. its pretty obvious that we'd be encountering collector technology there, but intention is originally to destroy it. until IFF and unshackled EDI. remember, we get an option to get IFF and go through the relay pretty early in a game. we just chose to keep preparing before diving in headfirst. he definitely knows something. he's just not telling you.

its also pretty curious that suddenly he stops talking to you in person after you managed to catch him on his lies and manipulations a few times, isn't it.

Anderson withholds some of the details but he doesn't outright lie to you. you know he has a past with Saren, he just doesn't tell you the details until it might actually have some sort of relevance to your search and even then, only if you ask. He tells you about your candidacy for spectres before we know that Eden prime is attacked and long before we might be seeing the council. He doesn't tell you about his work with virmire survivor, but that's because you are with Cerberus and the information is classified even for most alliance. Anderson doesn't come nowhere near the level of manipulation TIM exhibits (half the time he doesn't actually tell you, he's forced to confirm after you find out for yourself)

Edited to add - destroying the base makes it impossible or at least difficult for reapers to use collectors as their patsies/means to make reapers.  keeping it, gives them a chance to take it back.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 05 mars 2011 - 04:26 .

[The_Illusive]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

we can find another way to save the galaxy.

Like this?

Jackie Chan?

[jeweledleah]

no, I think you are the one who refuses to consider otherwise, but we'll agree to disagree.

[eldav]

Wonder how history would look like if we all acted on moronic good will...just saying.
Never take politics and strategy personally.

[ubermensch007]

Wow!! I don't think i`ve read such a good debate thread as this since reading "The Official H/Hr Vs. R/Hr Debate Thread" over at Veritaserum Forums...

I've read every page of this thread so far and i can't say that i have been swayed in one direction over another but i will do my part to contribute to the discussion...While reading the post here, i couldn't help but see a parallel with the Terminator...Cyberdyne, salvages the CPU of the T-800 and its physical remains, Miles Dyson and his cohorts are inspired by it and end up developing the means to usher in the very war that Kyle Reese, Sarah/John Connor were trying to prevent.

"The decisions you make in ME2, will have dire reprecussions in ME3. I'm thinking if you decided to keep the base, than you will have no access to " the beings of light".Mass Effect 3, may have a surprising amount of spiritual and metaphysical content, akin to the awesome mission from Dragon Age: Orgins: Andraste's Ashes...

On the flipside though, as much as i like and respect Legion, its belief that we should not use Reaper Technology, and instead create our own tech. Is like saying to the Aztecs, Native Americans and Africans, "Don't buy the guns that the white men use against you.Invent phaser pistols instead..." But even with the invaders weapons, they still lost. The power of Guns, Germs and Steel: as Jared Diamond tells us.But aquiring the Collector Base is far greater than just using the enemies gun ( Collector particle beam)...

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

To be honest, this is what I find so... infuriating (if that's the right word) about this kind of response. You haven't found another way. You can't plan your way to victory, you're just hoping something comes along so you'll have a chance against the Reapers, and that's why the decision to destroy the base is plain illogical in all aspects, it's basically relegating things to a fantasy land (har, I love irony...it being a game and all ).

You do realize it would be a lot easier finding ways to stop them if we hadn't been hamstrung by Cerberus deliberately leaking information that we were working with them and making every effort to undermine Shepard's credibility, not to mention conceiling proof of the Reapers' existance from the Council simply so Cerberus can have an exclusive on any toys they find.

There as little about the Collector mission that needed Shepard. He could have been actively looking for ways to stop the Reapers rather than spending his time stopping an attempt as feeble as that of the Collectors.

And the other powers ARE finding answers. The Normandy upgrades come from the Quarians, from the Turians, the Salarians, the Alliance....  EDI is Cerberus' contribution. It is interesting though that Cerberus is pro-AI's despite the Geth war. TIM seems very arbitrary in Cerberus' mandate.

[Bigdoser]

I would of kept the base if TIM did not make me play janitor all the time if he can't handle those projects my shep simply concluded that he can not handle the base.

[Xilizhra]

Your arguments in favor of your perspective are not particularly compelling. They are frought with emotion and overconfidence. You refuse to consider that maybe destroying the base is not an equally valid alternative to capturing it.

Well, for that, all we need to know is that no one decision will keep us from saving the galaxy.

However, there is another group that knows the Reapers intimately: the heretic geth. They've been aboard Sovereign, they've very probably analyzed its workings in the hope of learning how to become Reapers themselves. If we rewrite them, we can gain that knowledge even without the base.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

To be honest, this is what I find so... infuriating (if that's the right word) about this kind of response. You haven't found another way. You can't plan your way to victory, you're just hoping something comes along so you'll have a chance against the Reapers, and that's why the decision to destroy the base is plain illogical in all aspects, it's basically relegating things to a fantasy land (har, I love irony...it being a game and all ).

You do realize it would be a lot easier finding ways to stop them if we hadn't been hamstrung by Cerberus deliberately leaking information that we were working with them and making every effort to undermine Shepard's credibility, not to mention conceiling proof of the Reapers' existance from the Council simply so Cerberus can have an exclusive on any toys they find.

Hey, let's not worry about the situation that we (as Shepards) would not have been able to participate in, if Cerberus had retired from the scene.

Moiaussi wrote...

There as little about the Collector mission that needed Shepard. He could have been actively looking for ways to stop the Reapers rather than spending his time stopping an attempt as feeble as that of the Collectors.

Oh yeah, Shepard is such a Master Finder of Ways to Stop the Reapers. Only can somebody, please, remind me, how it went for him the last time?.. Oh, actually, don't bother, I recall it: he was killed.

Moiaussi wrote...

And the other powers ARE finding answers. The Normandy upgrades come from the Quarians, from the Turians, the Salarians, the Alliance....  EDI is Cerberus' contribution.

So why do you worry so much about Cerberus? Let everybody do their part. Your part is to shoot up things.

Moiaussi wrote...

It is interesting though that Cerberus is pro-AI's despite the Geth war. TIM seems very arbitrary in Cerberus' mandate.

Does not surprize me in the slightest. Cerberus is all for development and progress, unlike the retards on the Citadel and their fans in the Alliance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2011 - 08:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Hey, let's not worry about the situation that we (as Shepards) would not have been able to participate in, if Cerberus had retired from the scene.

Cerberus wouldn't have had to retire, just not interfere.