803 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctor Solus]

 I hate how everyone are so negative to TIM and Cerberus.. Yes, Cerberus has done some real nasty ****, but (as far as we know) much of the worst was not directly tied to TIM. And sometimes, cruel actions must be taken, for the advance of science. Cerberus is to me a Dark Knight; you don't have to like them, but you can't completly avoid the fact that you need them! Like Hock says, someone have to get their hands dirty for the universe to keep on rolling!

Sadly, even the game force you to distance yourself from them (Cerberus). I like TIM, he has the guts to do what's necesscary! Personally, I save it! 

Not that it's gonna matter more than maybe some dialouge in ME3, anyway..<_<

Modifié par Doctor Solus, 06 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[Almostfaceman]

Anyone not taking into account what the game itself tells us about acquiring reaper tech is ignoring the direction the story is headed. Both Morlin and Legion point out the problems of using "reaper" tech against the reapers. But Legion makes it most plain. He points out that the Reapers WANT us to use their tech. It's part of their plans. They've prepared for it. The writers of the story have plain thoughts about what will happen if organics use Reaper tech - they will be defeated and used by the Reapers. Morlin points out how advancing using a superior tech blinds a race to other alternatives. Legion does the same. C'mon people these are huge clue's saying bluntly "Don't Use Reaper Tech". So then we look at the game mechanics. What happens if Shepard dies and TiM uses the Reaper base? The game is over. No Mass Effect 3 for that character. This hints strongly that with no Shepard to counter-balance TiM's blindness to humanity's true potential (the ability to make their own technological leaps) that humanity is doomed along with the rest of the galaxy.

You can make all the arguments you want about the advantage of using advanced tech and I'll just keep pointing out that a super intelligent race that's been at an "organic extinction" program for millions of years has "organics learn from our technology" as part of their plan.

Yes there are all kinds of arguments that can be made, but any "pro-cerberus-keeps-base" argument ignores the direction the story-tellers are going in.

[Markinator_123]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Anyone not taking into account what the game itself tells us about acquiring reaper tech is ignoring the direction the story is headed. Both Morlin and Legion point out the problems of using "reaper" tech against the reapers. But Legion makes it most plain. He points out that the Reapers WANT us to use their tech. It's part of their plans. They've prepared for it. The writers of the story have plain thoughts about what will happen if organics use Reaper tech - they will be defeated and used by the Reapers. Morlin points out how advancing using a superior tech blinds a race to other alternatives. Legion does the same. C'mon people these are huge clue's saying bluntly "Don't Use Reaper Tech". So then we look at the game mechanics. What happens if Shepard dies and TiM uses the Reaper base? The game is over. No Mass Effect 3 for that character. This hints strongly that with no Shepard to counter-balance TiM's blindness to humanity's true potential (the ability to make their own technological leaps) that humanity is doomed along with the rest of the galaxy.

You can make all the arguments you want about the advantage of using advanced tech and I'll just keep pointing out that a super intelligent race that's been at an "organic extinction" program for millions of years has "organics learn from our technology" as part of their plan.

Yes there are all kinds of arguments that can be made, but any "pro-cerberus-keeps-base" argument ignores the direction the story-tellers are going in.

It is too bad that we are already using Reaper Tech. Maybe we should destroy the Citadel and the Mass Relays. Maybe we should destroy the Normandy SR-2(with EDI and the Thannix Cannon) which helped us defeat the collectors. Yeah, lets just remain ignorant about the capabilities of Reaper Tech. It's better not to understand it right?

People who know more are more likely to be dominant in life. Knowledge and understanding is power. Shoving idealogical BS down my throat is borderline offensive to me especially when it comes to blowing up knowledge all for the sake of some ideals that don't make sense.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 06 mars 2011 - 04:02 .

[DPSSOC]

Almostfaceman wrote...
Anyone not taking into account what the game itself tells us about acquiring reaper tech is ignoring the direction the story is headed. Both Morlin and Legion point out the problems of using "reaper" tech against the reapers. But Legion makes it most plain. He points out that the Reapers WANT us to use their tech. It's part of their plans. They've prepared for it. The writers of the story have plain thoughts about what will happen if organics use Reaper tech - they will be defeated and used by the Reapers. Morlin points out how advancing using a superior tech blinds a race to other alternatives. Legion does the same. C'mon people these are huge clue's saying bluntly "Don't Use Reaper Tech".

 
Problem with this argument is, and always has been, that we are using Reaper tech, there's no way to stop using Reaper tech without setting us back 200 years.  Our only option at this particular point, what with imminent destruction and all, is to press forward best we can.  The Collector Base is not just a cache of tech, it's a cache of information.  We potentially have the how-to manual on building a Reaper, and as any good wrecker will tell you it's easier to demolish something when you know how it's put together.

Almostfaceman wrote...
So then we look at the game mechanics. What happens if Shepard dies and TiM uses the Reaper base? The game is over. No Mass Effect 3 for that character. This hints strongly that with no Shepard to counter-balance TiM's blindness to humanity's true potential (the ability to make their own technological leaps) that humanity is doomed along with the rest of the galaxy.

Holy Superman that's a leap.  The reason there's no Mass Effect 3 for that character is because you, the player, are Shepard.  Mass Effect is Shepard's story, without Shepard no ME3.  The only way we'll know how things went sans Shepard is if Bioware decides to tell us.  The lack of ME3 doesn't hint at anything beyond Shepard's dead and his story cannot continue.

Almostfaceman wrote...
You can make all the arguments you want about the advantage of using advanced tech and I'll just keep pointing out that a super intelligent race that's been at an "organic extinction" program for millions of years has "organics learn from our technology" as part of their plan.

Yes there are all kinds of arguments that can be made, but any "pro-cerberus-keeps-base" argument ignores the direction the story-tellers are going in.

So you believe the entirety of ME2 was just one big Xanatos Gambit by the Reapers?  Cause that's what this argument amounts to.  The Reapers have technology they intended to be found, the Mass Relays, this ensures a general and predictable path of progression.  The Reapers did not intend for us to find the Collector Base, it's tech and info they did not want us to have access to.

[Almostfaceman]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Anyone not taking into account what the game itself tells us about acquiring reaper tech is ignoring the direction the story is headed. Both Morlin and Legion point out the problems of using "reaper" tech against the reapers. But Legion makes it most plain. He points out that the Reapers WANT us to use their tech. It's part of their plans. They've prepared for it. The writers of the story have plain thoughts about what will happen if organics use Reaper tech - they will be defeated and used by the Reapers. Morlin points out how advancing using a superior tech blinds a race to other alternatives. Legion does the same. C'mon people these are huge clue's saying bluntly "Don't Use Reaper Tech". So then we look at the game mechanics. What happens if Shepard dies and TiM uses the Reaper base? The game is over. No Mass Effect 3 for that character. This hints strongly that with no Shepard to counter-balance TiM's blindness to humanity's true potential (the ability to make their own technological leaps) that humanity is doomed along with the rest of the galaxy.

You can make all the arguments you want about the advantage of using advanced tech and I'll just keep pointing out that a super intelligent race that's been at an "organic extinction" program for millions of years has "organics learn from our technology" as part of their plan.

Yes there are all kinds of arguments that can be made, but any "pro-cerberus-keeps-base" argument ignores the direction the story-tellers are going in.

It is too bad that we are already using Reaper Tech. Maybe we should destroy the Citadel and the Mass Relays. Maybe we should destroy the Normandy SR-2(with EDI and the Thannix Cannon) which helped us defeat the collectors. Yeah, lets just remain ignorant about the capabilities of Reaper Tech. It's better not to understand it right?

People who know more are more likely to be dominant in life. Knowledge and understanding is power. Shoving idealogical BS down my throat is borderline offensive to me especially when it comes to blowing up knowledge all for the sake of some ideals that don't make sense.

All this ignores my point that the writers of the story went out of their way to make arguments against using more Reaper tech.  <_<  Both games constantly shove what you would call "ideological BS" down your throat.  So be offended if you must.

[Almostfaceman]

DPSSOC wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
Anyone not taking into account what the game itself tells us about acquiring reaper tech is ignoring the direction the story is headed. Both Morlin and Legion point out the problems of using "reaper" tech against the reapers. But Legion makes it most plain. He points out that the Reapers WANT us to use their tech. It's part of their plans. They've prepared for it. The writers of the story have plain thoughts about what will happen if organics use Reaper tech - they will be defeated and used by the Reapers. Morlin points out how advancing using a superior tech blinds a race to other alternatives. Legion does the same. C'mon people these are huge clue's saying bluntly "Don't Use Reaper Tech".

 
Problem with this argument is, and always has been, that we are using Reaper tech, there's no way to stop using Reaper tech without setting us back 200 years.  Our only option at this particular point, what with imminent destruction and all, is to press forward best we can.  The Collector Base is not just a cache of tech, it's a cache of information.  We potentially have the how-to manual on building a Reaper, and as any good wrecker will tell you it's easier to demolish something when you know how it's put together.

Almostfaceman wrote...
So then we look at the game mechanics. What happens if Shepard dies and TiM uses the Reaper base? The game is over. No Mass Effect 3 for that character. This hints strongly that with no Shepard to counter-balance TiM's blindness to humanity's true potential (the ability to make their own technological leaps) that humanity is doomed along with the rest of the galaxy.

Holy Superman that's a leap.  The reason there's no Mass Effect 3 for that character is because you, the player, are Shepard.  Mass Effect is Shepard's story, without Shepard no ME3.  The only way we'll know how things went sans Shepard is if Bioware decides to tell us.  The lack of ME3 doesn't hint at anything beyond Shepard's dead and his story cannot continue.

Almostfaceman wrote...
You can make all the arguments you want about the advantage of using advanced tech and I'll just keep pointing out that a super intelligent race that's been at an "organic extinction" program for millions of years has "organics learn from our technology" as part of their plan.

Yes there are all kinds of arguments that can be made, but any "pro-cerberus-keeps-base" argument ignores the direction the story-tellers are going in.

So you believe the entirety of ME2 was just one big Xanatos Gambit by the Reapers?  Cause that's what this argument amounts to.  The Reapers have technology they intended to be found, the Mass Relays, this ensures a general and predictable path of progression.  The Reapers did not intend for us to find the Collector Base, it's tech and info they did not want us to have access to.

I'll repeat what I said the other response - you're ignoring all the effort the writers put into the story about the dangers of out-of-balance technological leaps and continuing to use Reaper tech (long drawn out conversations with both Legion and Mordin vs. one little spat with TiM at the end of the game).  In our world of course there are arguments to be made both pro and con - I on the other hand think I am looking at what is the writer's perspective.   I think they're foreshadowing that if we continue to lean on the Reaper tech it will hurt us more than help.

[Markinator_123]

Almostfaceman wrote...

All this ignores my point that the writers of the story went out of their way to make arguments against using more Reaper tech.  <_<  Both games constantly shove what you would call "ideological BS" down your throat.  So be offended if you must.

I understood your point. However, it makes little sense in the context of the story. What you also seemed to have missed is that we (as in organics) need technological upgrades in order to combat the Reapers. At this point, organics do not stand a chance against them without some kind of edge. If Bioware is trying to say using Reaper tech is bad, then once again it makes little sense and I will be convinced that they are shoving idealogical BS down my throat.

[DPSSOC]

Almostfaceman wrote...
I think they're foreshadowing that if we continue to lean on the Reaper tech it will hurt us more than help.

Based on that our only option is stagnation.  That's what you don't seem to realize, everything we have is Reaper tech.  Even if we make our own advancements it's still going to be Reaper tech.  WIth the Collector base we're able to leap at least 10 years (what the Collectors have always been ahead of galactic standard) rather than whatever time we have between end of ME2 and Reaper arrival.  We're stuck with Reaper tech, even the Geth have their basis in Reaper tech, the best we can hope for is closing the gap between our Reaper tech and the Reaper's reaper tech.  We can't catch up, we certainly can't surpass them, but we can close the gap so our forces last a little bit longer so Shep has more time to figure out how to kill them.

Also you ignore the gains to be made in intel.  The how-to manual for Reapers is too good a potential gain to pass up.  We are the Rebel Alliance and the base potentially holds the plans to the Death Star, but you propose to just blow it up?

[Rekkampum]

DPSSOC wrote...

Based on that our only option is stagnation.

The only option is not stagnation. The Council races have been studying the relays for centuries. I'm pretty sure they're intelligent enough to make their own, like Matriarch Aethyta suggested. They've just had no need to because of how stable their society has been, unlike that of humans.

[Almostfaceman]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

All this ignores my point that the writers of the story went out of their way to make arguments against using more Reaper tech.  <_<  Both games constantly shove what you would call "ideological BS" down your throat.  So be offended if you must.

I understood your point. However, it makes little sense in the context of the story. What you also seemed to have missed is that we (as in organics) need technological upgrades in order to combat the Reapers. At this point, organics do not stand a chance against them without some kind of edge. If Bioware is trying to say using Reaper tech is bad, then once again it makes little sense and I will be convinced that they are shoving idealogical BS down my throat.

Well no, it makes sense.  It seems a lot of you are getting hung up on all the vast miriad of choices we have in real life and confusing it with the limited scope of this story.  Try to keep things in perspective of the writers and - well - maybe look at it as a giant movie.

In this giant movie...

Cerberus = bad.  It's a well-written bad.  The bad guy is complex.  As with any good bad guy - he has worthy motivations mixed in with bad one's.  Cerberus see's a legitimate threat and then over-reacts to it.  What do we see Cerberus do in this movie?  Be completly ruthless.  Akuze - humans are sacrificed for the "greater good".  Horizon - humans are sacrificed for the "greater good".  In the end, you cannot "trust" Cerberus because unless you are at the very top - you never know when you may be sacrificed for what someone else considers "the greater good".  This is what the "movie" of Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 teach us about Cerberus.

Alliance = typical human government with both good and bad elements.  Udina and Anderson are both Alliance.  With the Alliance, it is possible to trust to a certain extent because of Anderson-type's in power and it's possible to get screwed over because of Udina-type's in power.  It seems possible to make a difference in the Alliance whereas in Cerberus - if you ain't TiM ulitmately you ain't nobody.

Over-arching theme of "cooperation" is greater than "selfishness".  Mass Effect 1 ridicules "earth only" types.  Look at Terra Firma - presented as racist xenophobes.  Ash goes out of her way to not associate herself with them.  Working with aliens leads to humanity gaining knowledge and gaining strength as the squad becomes more powerful and diverse with the aliens as opposed as to without them.  Cooperation and valuing other races leads to greater strength - saving the council brings the turian power closer to humans.  Being selfish and only thinking of humans leads to more strife and clashes with the turians - not boding well for future fights against Reapers (or any other huge galactic threat).  Paragon keeping Wrex alive results in a new krogan way of thinking that is less hostile and more thoughtful (good for humans because a human played a huge role in starting it).  Paragon respect for life in regards to the rachni will ultimately result in a race that looks at humans favorably and will help them in defeating the Reapers - good for humanity both short-term (Reapers) and long-term (any other galatic threat that pops up).  Paragon treatment of Legion (both towards the unit and towards the Collector base) will lead to avoiding a war between the geth and the quarians and massive geth forces helping humans defeat the reapers and not becoming a future threat.  It's all an over-arching theme of cooperation in the story and how it in the end helps humanity far more than selfishness does.

I could get even more long-winded but what I'm saying is this - this universe is within what the writers have built, and what the writers have built is that Paragon actions are healthier for humanity than Renegade.  This must be kept in mind (whether agreed with or not) as the Renegade action of letting Cerberus have at the Collector base choice is presented to you.

I challenge anyone to play both Mass Effect 1 and 2 and not see that the situation is more dire for humanity if you play as a Renegade.

[DPSSOC]

Rekkampum wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Based on that our only option is stagnation.

The only option is not stagnation. The Council races have been studying the relays for centuries. I'm pretty sure they're intelligent enough to make their own, like Matriarch Aethyta suggested.

 
I doubt they're intelligent enough to tie their own shoes but that's just me (look around no laces).  As to your point they have not been studying the relays (at least I've seen nothing to suggest it) anymore than they've been studying the Keepers (Chorban was the first in all the millenia they've been on the Citadel).  The Council races have been content with the fact that they work, it's an if it ain't broke don't fix it kind of deal

Rekkampum wrote...
They've just had no need to because of how stable their society has been, unlike that of humans.

Which is kind of the problem.  That stability won't be disrupted until the Reapers show up, at which point it's too late to start dedicated R&D.

[Rekkampum]

DPSSOC wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Based on that our only option is stagnation.

The only option is not stagnation. The Council races have been studying the relays for centuries. I'm pretty sure they're intelligent enough to make their own, like Matriarch Aethyta suggested.

 
I doubt they're intelligent enough to tie their own shoes but that's just me (look around no laces).  As to your point they have not been studying the relays (at least I've seen nothing to suggest it) anymore than they've been studying the Keepers (Chorban was the first in all the millenia they've been on the Citadel).  The Council races have been content with the fact that they work, it's an if it ain't broke don't fix it kind of deal

Rekkampum wrote...
They've just had no need to because of how stable their society has been, unlike that of humans.

Which is kind of the problem.  That stability won't be disrupted until the Reapers show up, at which point it's too late to start dedicated R&D.

You must have missed the Cerberus Network transmission regarding a scientist attempting to assess the age of one of the relays, which in tandem, reveals that they've been studying them for quite some time. It is the teaser for the next DLC, after all.

[Doctor Solus]

A hint; don't over-think things! Even though Mass Effect have one of the most complex and well-written game-story-universes, it's still just a game!

It is written by people that probably have plans for how it's all going to end, an being humans, they won't alway put in the perfect plot-sections, choices, opportunities etc.

[DPSSOC]

Rekkampum wrote...
You must have missed the Cerberus Network transmission regarding a scientist attempting to assess the age of one of the relays, which in tandem, reveals that they've been studying them for quite some time. It is the teaser for the next DLC, after all.

Probably, I tend to gloss over them (lack of interest + small SD TV + bad eyes = can't be arsed).  However I've caught a bit of the CN transmissions and the ones I've seen seem to be about current events.  Assuming they all are how is a scientist currently attempting to assess the age of a relay indicative of long term study?  When studying a piece of ancient technology one would think the first step (or one of the first steps) would be to determine just how ancient it is.  If anything the fact they haven't even figured out how old the things are would seem to shoot the idea of long term study (or at least long term study with any real measure of success) down rather quickly.

Edit:

Cosmon wrote...
Considering how many people throughout the game tell you not to trust Cerberus, I blew that base into rubble.

In a world of liars trust the man everyone says is dishonest.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 06 mars 2011 - 05:46 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Cosmon wrote...

Considering how many people throughout the game tell you not to trust Cerberus, I blew that base into rubble.

Can't you make up your own mind?

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cosmon wrote...

Considering how many people throughout the game tell you not to trust Cerberus, I blew that base into rubble.

Can't you make up your own mind?

Of course.  It's a matter of whom you trust more--TIM?  Or Anderson and your squad?

[Asheer_Khan]

Doctor Solus wrote...

 I hate how everyone are so negative to TIM and Cerberus.. Yes, Cerberus has done some real nasty ****, but (as far as we know) much of the worst was not directly tied to TIM. And sometimes, cruel actions must be taken, for the advance of science. Cerberus is to me a Dark Knight; you don't have to like them, but you can't completly avoid the fact that you need them! Like Hock says, someone have to get their hands dirty for the universe to keep on rolling!

Sadly, even the game force you to distance yourself from them (Cerberus). I like TIM, he has the guts to do what's necesscary! Personally, I save it! 

Not that it's gonna matter more than maybe some dialouge in ME3, anyway..<_<

"AH YES... rogue cells"...<_<

[Doctor Solus]

Cosmon wrote...

Considering how many people throughout the game tell you not to trust Cerberus, I blew that base into rubble.

The game force you to hate Cerberus.. Considering how strict and secret an operation Cerberus is, I believe all that those who tell you distance yourself from them just have heard rumors.. And what kind of rumors spread? Yes, the worstone, like the biotic program with Jack, and that **** from the first games. But from what we've been told, those were the exception, and not the rule. TIM might be lying, but I with several occations asure us that those were not his actions.
The facility with Jack for sure was operating more extreme than TIM allowed, according to that one log.

Modifié par Doctor Solus, 06 mars 2011 - 05:50 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Doctor Solus wrote...

 I hate how everyone are so negative to TIM and Cerberus.. Yes, Cerberus has done some real nasty ****, but (as far as we know) much of the worst was not directly tied to TIM. And sometimes, cruel actions must be taken, for the advance of science. Cerberus is to me a Dark Knight; you don't have to like them, but you can't completly avoid the fact that you need them! Like Hock says, someone have to get their hands dirty for the universe to keep on rolling!

Sadly, even the game force you to distance yourself from them (Cerberus). I like TIM, he has the guts to do what's necesscary! Personally, I save it! 

Not that it's gonna matter more than maybe some dialouge in ME3, anyway..<_<

"AH YES... rogue cells"...<_<

EDIT: Please stop smear Batman's name with ANY associations to failberus because you do huge DISSERVICE to him and what he do...<_<

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 06 mars 2011 - 05:54 .

[Rekkampum]

DPSSOC wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...
You must have missed the Cerberus Network transmission regarding a scientist attempting to assess the age of one of the relays, which in tandem, reveals that they've been studying them for quite some time. It is the teaser for the next DLC, after all.

 Assuming they all are how is a scientist currently attempting to assess the age of a relay indicative of long term study?

Perhaps because the main school's knowledge is based on the research of other relays and civilizations like the Protheans. Considering it is also believed that the protheans made the relays, any information suggesting the protheans weren't the creators would seem to be based on faulty evidence or contaminations of some sort.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Save collector base: Galactic human empire. Destroy collector base: A unified galactic government united by Shepard, creating galactic peace.

[jeweledleah]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

Save collector base: Galactic human empire. Destroy collector base: A unified galactic government united by Shepard, creating galactic peace.

pretty much this.

so it still comes down to your personal goals and preferences.

when we are heading into omega 4 relay, we're not there to gather tech to stop the reapers, we already have the tech - we have the canon, shields, etc based on sovereign's tech.  We are heading in because collectors are abducting humans, because we learn that they are helping reapers and stopping them/destroying them will at least delay reaper arrival, giving us time to actualy manufacture countermeasures - measures that we've already discovered in Mass Effect 1.

collector technilogy can be useful?  but is it neccesary for defeat of the reapers?  no. its not.  the decision to keep/destroy the base is not about stopping the reapers.  its about what happens AFTER the reapers are stopped.