803 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Rekkampum wrote...
Perhaps because the main school's knowledge is based on the research of other relays and civilizations like the Protheans. Considering it is also believed that the protheans made the relays, any information suggesting the protheans weren't the creators would seem to be based on faulty evidence or contaminations of some sort.

Yes but how is any of that indicative of long term study?  From the looks of it they've taken archaeological finds on the Protheans, and finding evidence lacking of any older civilization, assumed that the Protheans created the relays.  Such assumptions would have been blown out of the water multiple times if they were actually studying the things.  So either this CN transmission is a revelation that nobody's been studying it, or that those who are studying it are using very bad science.  Both possibilities net the same overall benefit of zilch.

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cosmon wrote...

Considering how many people throughout the game tell you not to trust Cerberus, I blew that base into rubble.

Can't you make up your own mind?

Of course.  It's a matter of whom you trust more--TIM?  Or Anderson and your squad?

Can't you make up your own mind?

[jeweledleah]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cosmon wrote...

Considering how many people throughout the game tell you not to trust Cerberus, I blew that base into rubble.

Can't you make up your own mind?

Of course.  It's a matter of whom you trust more--TIM?  Or Anderson and your squad?

Can't you make up your own mind?

isn't chosing whom to trust, based on presented evidnece - making up your own mind?  or should we distregard your claims of logical thinking and trust the person we personaly like more (which in your case happens to be TIM apparently)

[Zulu_DFA]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

Save collector base: Galactic human empire. Destroy collector base: A unified galactic government united by Shepard, creating galactic peace.

What about the Reapers?

[Rekkampum]

DPSSOC wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...
Perhaps because the main school's knowledge is based on the research of other relays and civilizations like the Protheans. Considering it is also believed that the protheans made the relays, any information suggesting the protheans weren't the creators would seem to be based on faulty evidence or contaminations of some sort.

Yes but how is any of that indicative of long term study?  From the looks of it they've taken archaeological finds on the Protheans, and finding evidence lacking of any older civilization, assumed that the Protheans created the relays.  Such assumptions would have been blown out of the water multiple times if they were actually studying the things.  So either this CN transmission is a revelation that nobody's been studying it, or that those who are studying it are using very bad science.  Both possibilities net the same overall benefit of zilch.

You can't blame them. The Reapers did remove virtually all evidence of organic civilizations before the Protheans, and the evidence that suggests there are older groups is extremely limited. Their assumptions, based on the available evidence, are actually quite sound when you think of it without the luxury of knowing about the Reaper's presence. If anything, this is a revelation that key information most likely will be discovered - similar to the beacons the Protheans left - that more concretely prove the existence of the Reapers, which of course will cause them to review their understandings about space-faring civilizations. 

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Of course.  It's a matter of whom you trust more--TIM?  Or Anderson and your squad?

Can't you make up your own mind?

I made up my mind about whom I do and don't trust, thank you very much.  And, having made up my mind that TIM can't be trusted with the CB, I blow it.

You can say I'm a fool for going with my instincts, but they've proven to be generally correct about this game so far.

[Jer TC]

If a dead Reaper can indoctrinate people, there's no way I'm leaving a Reaper birthing factory - complete with it's indoctrination equipment - around. Talk about Russian Roulette, except there are five bullets in the gun.

Besides, I happen to like The Council. I just wish they would pull their heads out of the sand. Well, not the Turian. I hope I get a chance to kill him and put Garrus or Septimus on the Council.

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Cosmon wrote...

Considering how many people throughout the game tell you not to trust Cerberus, I blew that base into rubble.

Can't you make up your own mind?

Of course.  It's a matter of whom you trust more--TIM?  Or Anderson and your squad?

Can't you make up your own mind?

isn't chosing whom to trust, based on presented evidnece - making up your own mind?  or should we distregard your claims of logical thinking and trust the person we personaly like more (which in your case happens to be TIM apparently)

Trust is like investment. You invest your free will into another person's opinion, so that that person can do whatever he wants with your free will.

To me doing what TIM wants is not trusting him, but agreeing with him. As in: I take his reasoning, think it through my own head and confirm that it is the logical one, and therefore the only way to go. Also, he always has the upper hand due to his access to more information, so even an act of trusting him would seem a lot more sound, than trusting any one of your squadmates, or even Anderson, or even them altogether, because they don't have any more information than you.

Notice: the second most informed person you meet over the course of the game, Liara T'Soni, never pronounces any such rubbish as "I don't trust TIM", "Cerberus cannot be trusted", etc. Maybe she doesn't trust TIM, but being a clever girl she is, she understands that it's kinda irrelevant in the face of the assured destruction of all sapient life in the Galaxy.

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Of course.  It's a matter of whom you trust more--TIM?  Or Anderson and your squad?

Can't you make up your own mind?

I made up my mind about whom I do and don't trust, thank you very much.  And, having made up my mind that TIM can't be trusted with the CB, I blow it.

You can say I'm a fool for going with my instincts, but they've proven to be generally correct about this game so far.

I wouldn't call you exactly a fool... Just an irresponsible person. TIM calls you a "natural leader" for a reason (even if to him it's not the most valuable property of yours). You can pretty much insta-indoctrinate anybody into doing anything over the course of the game, and yet when it comes to the most important choice you suddenly rely on somebody else's mental faculties...

[jeweledleah]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Trust is like investment. You invest your free will into another person's opinion, so that that person can do whatever he wants with your free will.

To me doing what TIM wants is not trusting him, but agreeing with him. As in: I take his reasoning, think it through my own head and confirm that it is the logical one, and therefore the only way to go. Also, he always has the upper hand due to his access to more information, so even an act of trusting him would seem a lot more sound, than trusting any one of your squadmates, or even Anderson, or even them altogether, because they don't have any more information than you.

Notice: the second most informed person you meet over the course of the game, Liara T'Soni, never pronounces any such rubbish as "I don't trust TIM", "Cerberus cannot be trusted", etc. Maybe she doesn't trust TIM, but being a clever girl she is, she understands that it's kinda irrelevant in the face of the assured destruction of all sapient life in the Galaxy.

you see, here's the thing.  I don't agree with TIM.  I don't agree with his methods, his motivations or his goals.  When I review the precedence, the situation, the implications on present and future, I realize that TIM is the person who needs almost as much stopping as the reapers.  TIM is like a predator running away from a forest fire alongside his usual prey - just becasue we're sorta heading in the same direction and running away form the same thing doesn't make him a good ally.  that information he has?  he's not revealing it unless it suits his needs/goals.

there' a good russian expression, it translates roughly as bear's assistance, and it refers to the kind of help that does more harm then good.  Describes TIM very well IMO.  unless you are a human supremacist of course.

As for Liara T'sone - her biggest saving grace is her personal loyalty to Shepard. 

[ubermensch007]

Rekkampum wrote: This has nothing to do with any form of dislike about his joining Cerebus.( You could have fooled me.)

Second of all, anyone with common sense knows that 'most' paragon and even some renegade players, Shepard would not willing join Cerebus, especially after all that went down in ME1... It would be 'impossible' for Shepard, especially given this background history to see anything beneficial from allying with the group."

Well, first of all, 'most' is not all.Second, Shepard Commander, did willingly decide to work with (if not join) Cerebus in ME2 ( and he would have Post ME1). As TIM said to Shep, before he headed off to Freedom's Progress: "Look, i know that you have misgivings about us and i don't expect you to trust me right away.But do this one thing for me, check out F.P. and if you still think that i am B.S.-ing you, than we can go our separate ways." After F.P. Shepard works with Cerebus b/c they are the only ones doing something about the Reaper threat.He states this to Tali on Freedom's Progress, to Ash or Kai, on Horizon and Anderson and the Council when he has an audience with them.And it wasn't 'impossible' for Shep, to give Legion the benefit of the doubt, inspite of his history with the Geth, trying to kill him every time he encountered them.

As Batman said in Superman/Batman: Public Enemies,"In times of war, circumstances dictate action."

If you are correct than most players Post-Battle of the Citadel (2183) would have just let the Collectors abduct human colonist with impunity, Complete the Human Reaper, And still control the Collector Base.All b/c they didn't trust or like Cerebus.Now, baring this all in mind, the common sense you speak of sounds like some kind of Alice in Wonderland type of logic...

[jeweledleah]

best lies have some truth in them. Best liars take real provable events and just spin them to fit with their goals. its a good tactic to confuse and guilt others who catch liars on their lies.

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

you see, here's the thing.  I don't agree with TIM.  I don't agree with his methods, his motivations or his goals.  When I review the precedence, the situation, the implications on present and future, I realize that TIM is the person who needs almost as much stopping as the reapers.  TIM is like a predator running away from a forest fire alongside his usual prey - just becasue we're sorta heading in the same direction and running away form the same thing doesn't make him a good ally.

Your metaphor is a bit flawed, because TIM is not running away from the Reapers. He says: "Let's arm ourselves and let 'em bring it on!" You say: "No, I'm a good boy (girl) and I won't be naughty!" Then you take off running in hopes that something else comes up.

jeweledleah wrote...

that information he has?  he's not revealing it unless it suits his needs/goals.

That's more than enough to prove that he has it, as well as the means to obtain it.

jeweledleah wrote...

there' a good russian expression, it translates roughly as bear's assistance, and it refers to the kind of help that does more harm then good.  Describes TIM very well IMO.  unless you are a human supremacist of course.

And it'll be a good thing if there are anybody left to feel that way about TIM's disservice, which is a bit more doubtful due to your disservice of protecting the cool aliens from the Human dominance, by diminishing the chances of everybody's survival against the Reapers. Unless you heavily meta-game the whole thing.

jeweledleah wrote...

As for Liara T'sone - her biggest saving grace is her personal loyalty to Shepard. 

We'll see how long it lasts, if your Shepard keeps dooming the Galaxy...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 07:30 .

[Rekkampum]

ubermensch007 wrote...

Rekkampum wrote: This has nothing to do with any form of dislike about his joining Cerebus.( You could have fooled me.)

Again with the assumptions. I have three Renegade Shepards that have conserved the Base. So, I guess I did fool you, huh? Or perhaps you fooled yourself.

Well, first of all, 'most' is not all.

Isn't that obvious?

Second, Shepard Commander, did willingly decide to work with (if not join) Cerebus in ME2 ( and he would have Post ME1).

Thanks for bringing up a fact that has nothing to do with the conversation I was previously in, which revolved around the plot device that was the Lazarus project. You continue to rant about Cerberus when my issue was not with Cerberus in and of itself. 

The last statement you made is conjecture, and will be dismissed. If Shepard had not died, we would not know what he/she would do. This isn't a fairly linear game, decision-wise. 

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Hey, let's not worry about the situation that we (as Shepards) would not have been able to participate in, if Cerberus had retired from the scene.

And lets not assume that was done out of altruism or means more than face value. If a doctor saves my life, I will be grateful, and will want to see him properly paid. That doesn't mean I will do everything he says from then on or agree he would also make a good governor/president/dictator-for-life.

Oh yeah, Shepard is such a Master Finder of Ways to Stop the Reapers. Only can somebody, please, remind me, how it went for him the last time?.. Oh, actually, don't bother, I recall it: he was killed.

Keep in mind my position on that is that was Joker showboating rather than any error on Shepard's part. And who is the biggest Cerberus supporter in ME2 (other than TIM)? Joker... Hmmm.....

So why do you worry so much about Cerberus? Let everybody do their part. Your part is to shoot up things.

Based on that, TIM definately wasted his money. Someone like Zaeed is perfectly good at shooting things up on his own. My part is to solve great riddles of the universe, like what the problem of the big stupid jellyfish really is.

Does not surprize me in the slightest. Cerberus is all for development and progress, unlike the retards on the Citadel and their fans in the Alliance.

"Su-prize?" Closet Jacob fan? The Council doesn't shoot Legion on sight, nor EDI for that matter. AI's are only 'technically' illegal. We have not seen any evidence that they penalize AI's at all, merely AI reseachers.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Hey, let's not worry about the situation that we (as Shepards) would not have been able to participate in, if Cerberus had retired from the scene.

And lets not assume that was done out of altruism or means more than face value. If a doctor saves my life, I will be grateful, and will want to see him properly paid. That doesn't mean I will do everything he says from then on or agree he would also make a good governor/president/dictator-for-life.

Fair enough, but I wasn't suggesting that.

Moiaussi wrote...

Keep in mind my position on that is that was Joker showboating rather than any error on Shepard's part. And who is the biggest Cerberus supporter in ME2 (other than TIM)? Joker... Hmmm.....

Hmmm indeed... Joker for final boss in ME3!!! I guess...

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So why do you worry so much about Cerberus? Let everybody do their part. Your part is to shoot up things.

Based on that, TIM definately wasted his money. Someone like Zaeed is perfectly good at shooting things up on his own. My part is to solve great riddles of the universe, like what the problem of the big stupid jellyfish really is.

No, TIM did not waste his money, because Shepard's main quality in TIM's books was his being a fetish to the Collectors. And it was totally worth all the money: while you were milling around, you kept the Shadow Broker and the Collectors distracted from his other projects! Like, you know, solving the great riddles of the universe...

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Does not surprize me in the slightest. Cerberus is all for development and progress, unlike the retards on the Citadel and their fans in the Alliance.

"Su-prize?" Closet Jacob fan? The Council doesn't shoot Legion on sight, nor EDI for that matter. AI's are only 'technically' illegal. We have not seen any evidence that they penalize AI's at all, merely AI reseachers.

They probably don't have a clue about EDI, and think Legion is your trophy-bot. Everyone knows that the real geth can't speak or match the intelligence of even a LOKI mech.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 08:13 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Your metaphor is a bit flawed, because TIM is not running away from the Reapers. He says: "Let's arm ourselves and let 'em bring it on!" You say: "No, I'm a good boy (girl) and I won't be naughty!" Then you take off running in hopes that something else comes up

And it'll be a good thing if there are anybody left to feel that way about TIM's disservice, which is a bit more doubtful due to your disservice of protecting the cool aliens from the Human dominance, by diminishing the chances of everybody's survival against the Reapers. Unless you heavily meta-game the whole thing.

Even renegade shep warns TIM not to get greedy, though, and that the Reapers are still coming. Trying to take them on without the other major powers is foolish. It may prove neccessary, but it shouldn't be written off either. Should the Alliance have let the Citadel fall simply because it wasn't human controlled?

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Your metaphor is a bit flawed, because TIM is not running away from the Reapers. He says: "Let's arm ourselves and let 'em bring it on!" You say: "No, I'm a good boy (girl) and I won't be naughty!" Then you take off running in hopes that something else comes up

And it'll be a good thing if there are anybody left to feel that way about TIM's disservice, which is a bit more doubtful due to your disservice of protecting the cool aliens from the Human dominance, by diminishing the chances of everybody's survival against the Reapers. Unless you heavily meta-game the whole thing.

Even renegade shep warns TIM not to get greedy, though, and that the Reapers are still coming. Trying to take them on without the other major powers is foolish. It may prove neccessary, but it shouldn't be written off either. Should the Alliance have let the Citadel fall simply because it wasn't human controlled?

There is a way not goof around teaching TIM how to live.

[jeweledleah]

Zulu, you're opinions are not the only correct opinions. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but what YOU think is the only option with everything else being wrong and doom? its not. to quite Dude Lebowsky: that's just like your opinion, man.

you are completely fixated on collector base being necessary for defeat of the reapers and that to do anything else means automatic doom and loss even though we've been making plans for that before we even knew that collectors existed, let alone that they had a base we could keep. Turians developed Thanix canon based on the sovereign research while you were being rebuilt, for example. Protheans left their own research from the last time reapers came around - oh wait, you think that vigil is a traitor even though vigil ONLY helped us with no strings attached, while TIM is playing out his own little drama, keeping us on strings.

I wonder why is it that you feel the need so vehemently justify your choices? is it because deep down inside you know that they might not be the only viable ones after all, but them being more ruthless makes them less appealing?

Cerberus is not about development or progress for its own sake. Its means to an end and that end is power. Galactic races did pretty well before humans even came to the scene.

P.S.  AI research is not completely illegal.  its merely heavinly sanctioned - the reason quarians are seen so badly is becasue they they didn't go through official channels.  then again, they didnt' realize what they were doing at the time...which is basicaly the reason why AI research is heavily sanctioned.

and everyone knows that Geth are most definitely smarter then average loki mech, its why they are seen as more of a threat.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 06 mars 2011 - 08:21 .

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fair enough, but I wasn't suggesting that.

You seemed to be saying "Don't forget if Cerberus hadn't saved Shepard, Shepard wouldn't be able to do anything" My counter was "Yes, so?"

Hmmm indeed... Joker for final boss in ME3!!! I guess...

Lol unlikely, although it might at least have comic relief value and thus be better than the proto-reaper . My point was that Shepard died in ME2 in a situation he should have gotten out of easily. Even the best commander cannot ensure everyone under their command is 100% competent. If anything it is an arguement against having brought Shepard back rather than disclosing the information TIM had proving the Reapers' existance and letting conventional forces handle the Collectors.

It would have set back TIM's plans, but there was nothing to stop whoever was at the helm next from making the same idiot move.

No, TIM did not waste his money, because Shepard's main quality in TIM's books was his being a fetish to the Collectors. And it was totally worth all the money: while you were milling around, you kept the Shadow Broker and the Collectors distracted from his other projects! Like, you know, solving the great riddles of the universe...

He also has propeganda value. It likely helped in getting the majority of the Normandy crew and is probably good for overall recruiting, in the same way that the Council were using Shep for propeganda.

They probably don't have a clue about EDI, and think Legion is your trophy-bot. Everyone knows that the real geth can't speak or match the intelligence of even a LOKI mech.

That is garbage. They were designed to help the Quarians. That means they all understand Quarian even if they aren't built with any ability to speak audibly.

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I wouldn't call you exactly a fool... Just an irresponsible person. TIM calls you a "natural leader" for a reason (even if to him it's not the most valuable property of yours). You can pretty much insta-indoctrinate anybody into doing anything over the course of the game, and yet when it comes to the most important choice you suddenly rely on somebody else's mental faculties...

And meanwhile, by your own logic, you are relying on TIM's.  Your point?

Besides, I don't count my gut as "somebody else's mental facilities."  Mind you, I usually rely on logical deduction to make important decisions, but when there's no clear right answer, I follow my gut.  Had I seen substatial evidence that contradicts what my instincts tell me, I would have changed my mind, but as of yet keeping the Collector Base requires putting my faith in Cerberus, and the argument that it could do good, which would hold water if, you know, it wasn't Cerberus I was expecting to do good with it.

I don't trust Cerberus.  Therefore, I am rejecting their mental facilities and relying on my own, no matter how shaky and unfounded they may be.  Anderson's advice, and the thoughts of my crew, did indeed strengthened my opinion.  However, they are by no means the most important factors.

If Anderson told me to jump of a bridge, I'd tell him to go f*ck himself.  There's a line between trust and stupidity.

[Zyphone]

You wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for Cerberus. End of story.

Keep it.

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

Zulu, you're opinions are not the only correct opinions. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but what YOU think is the only option with everything else being wrong and doom? its not. to quite Dude Lebowsky: that's just like your opinion, man.

Not only mine, but that's irrelevant. What is relevant, is that there are way more logical arguments pro keeping tha Base, than contra.

Of course, blowing it up is "equally valid", because it's "just a game", and everybody gets their fun the way they get it. That doesn't change the fact that most arguments pro blowing it are either emotional, or meta-gamey. They are logical only in one case: "I'd rather see Galaxy burn, than the Humans at the top."

jeweledleah wrote...

you are completely fixated on collector base being necessary for defeat of the reapers and that to do anything else means automatic doom and loss

Actually, no. I (my Sheaprd) thinks the Galaxy is pretty much doomed even with the Base. Because miniscule chances x1000 = still miniscule chances. And yet miniscule chances x1000 = a thousand times better than miniscule chances x1.

jeweledleah wrote...

even though we've been making plans for that before we even knew that collectors existed, let alone that they had a Base we could keep. Turians developed Thanix canon based on the sovereign research while you were being rebuilt, for example. Protheans left their own research from the last time reapers came around - oh wait, you think that vigil is a traitor even though vigil ONLY helped us with no strings attached, while TIM is playing out his own little drama, keeping us on strings.

And you're playing yours by spiting him, instead of contribiting to the Galaxy-wide effort (to come up to par with the main enemy, the Big Bad, the Prime Evil) by keeping the Base. All over some petty difference in the opinion about whether your own species should strive for a better place in the Galaxy or not.

jeweledleah wrote...

I wonder why is it that you feel the need so vehemently justify your choices? is it because deep down inside you know that they might not be the only viable ones after all, but them being more ruthless makes them less appealing?

I don't justify my choices. I question yours. That's how it's always been throughout the four previous C-Base threads too. As far as the real discussions went (as opposed to simple "I kept it" and "I blew it" statements), they all could have been just as easily titled "Is there any justification at all to blow up the Base?" Quite telling of itself.

jeweledleah wrote...

Cerberus is not about development or progress for its own sake. Its means to an end and that end is power.

I can see nothing wrong with that.

jeweledleah wrote...

Galactic races did pretty well before humans even came to the scene.

I can see nothing wrong with the idea to beat them at this power-game.

Nobody says the aliens should just relax and submit to the Human dominance. Let them try to prevent it. But there is no point in relaxing and submitting to the "galactic races" on our part.

jeweledleah wrote...

P.S.  AI research is not completely illegal.  its merely heavinly sanctioned - the reason quarians are seen so badly is becasue they they didn't go through official channels.  then again, they didnt' realize what they were doing at the time...which is basicaly the reason why AI research is heavily sanctioned.

In other words, EDI is illegal, if only for not having a Council's sanction.

jeweledleah wrote...

and everyone knows that Geth are most definitely smarter then average loki mech, its why they are seen as more of a threat.

Only in groups.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 08:55 .

[Jimbe2693]

Kill it with fire.

[Zulu_DFA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I wouldn't call you exactly a fool... Just an irresponsible person. TIM calls you a "natural leader" for a reason (even if to him it's not the most valuable property of yours). You can pretty much insta-indoctrinate anybody into doing anything over the course of the game, and yet when it comes to the most important choice you suddenly rely on somebody else's mental faculties...

And meanwhile, by your own logic, you are relying on TIM's.  Your point?

As I said, I don't go on with his wish to keep the Base blindly. Even if I did, it be justified, becasue he has more information and better access to it than I. TIM > Liara > Shepard > everyone else.

Also there is no "my" logic. There is only the logic. Therefore, if it is present in TIM's reasoning (and it is), there can't be a differing logical reasoning.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Besides, I don't count my gut as "somebody else's mental facilities."  Mind you, I usually rely on logical deduction to make important decisions, but when there's no clear right answer, I follow my gut.

Why not a lucky dime?

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Had I seen substatial evidence that contradicts what my instincts tell me, I would have changed my mind, but as of yet keeping the Collector Base requires putting my faith in Cerberus, and the argument that it could do good, which would hold water if, you know, it wasn't Cerberus I was expecting to do good with it.

I don't trust Cerberus.  Therefore, I am rejecting their mental facilities and relying on my own, no matter how shaky and unfounded they may be.  Anderson's advice, and the thoughts of my crew, did indeed strengthened my opinion.  However, they are by no means the most important factors.

If Anderson told me to jump of a bridge, I'd tell him to go f*ck himself.  There's a line between trust and stupidity.

There is a line between mistrust and stupidity too.

OK, I said it.

It's just relax time then.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 09:12 .