803 réponses à ce sujet

[Pwener2313]

Man, this discussion is never gonna stop. Metagaming, the Collector Base won't do a damn thing against the Reapers. Cerberus is just going to use it to allow Humanity to dominate all other races. They are not even going to be the ones in control since that would ruin the whole point. Blowing it up gets you peace, keeping it gets you control.

[Zulu_DFA]

Cosmon wrote...

@Zulu: Just out of curiosity, did you chose to reprogramme the Geth or destory them?

Hardest choice of my ME-life. On the first run I reprogrammed them.

But canonically I blow them up. I just thought that I had been metagaming the first time (like, "BioWare won't punish this choice, yay!").

Ultimate reason: unlike TIM, Legion can't make his f*cking mind as to what might happen if they are reprogrammed. So, not taking chances here.

I still think that rewriting them is the "best" choice regarding the "Grand Final Battle" death toll, but it's unattainable without metagaming for me.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 09:26 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I blow it up so I can get rid of that heavy ordinance on my ship to cut fuel costs as well as have it gone so I can use it as a tax write off. If it just ends up on the CB in the hands of Cerberus I won't get as much money, in fact I'd probably get arrested.

damn those guys

[Pwener2313]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

Man, this discussion is never gonna stop. Metagaming, the Collector Base won't do a damn thing against the Reapers. Cerberus is just going to use it to allow Humanity to dominate all other races.

Nobody with an ounce of moral fiber would oppose that either.

Actually, that's the reason why I kept it.

[jeweledleah]

I'm sorry, I just have to adress one thing, since arguing with Zulu is like arguing with a mule. anything that doesn't mesh with his own opinions and goals must be stupid.

but that aside - Nobody with an ounce of moral fiber would oppose that either, that being humanity dominating other races? what moral fiber are we talking about? the moral fiber of sentient beings all deserving equal say, or the eugenics sort of moral fiber?

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

but that aside - Nobody with an ounce of moral fiber would oppose that either, that being humanity dominating other races? what moral fiber are we talking about? the moral fiber of sentient beings all deserving equal say, or the eugenics sort of moral fiber?

The sort of moral fiber that is discussed in the "Is the Council really good?" thread. Namelly, that the Council races certainly do not think that all so called sentient beings deserve equal say, and that the Council races think that the... let's say, apt races should assume patronage over the "lesser races".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 09:46 .

[jeweledleah]

no, that's not what they are saying at all, especially since you can still have a councelate even if you don't have a sit on a council..yet.

and speaking of those other races, don't you think they deserve a say? or are you going to be JUST like the council that you claim is so wrong? I thought it was immoral? or wait, you think its just fine, as long as you are the one who gets to call the shots?

[Callidus Thorn]

Caution! TIM walks among us. He has taken up the guise of Zulu_DFA in an attempt to indoctrinate us.

Reapers are not indestructible god-like killing machines, as ME 1&2 show. Also, as I stated in my previous post, I believe most of their main advantages may have been neutralised. Also remember, Cerberus did not kill Sovereign, so they're actually behind everyone else when it comes to fighting the Reapers.

If the only way to stop the Reapers is to give TIM the base, why the hell give us the option to destroy it? Just so at the end of ME3 they can say "F*** you, because you weren't allied with TIM in ME2, the Reapers kill everything. HA HA HA!!!"

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

no, that's not what they are saying at all, especially since you can still have a councelate even if you don't have a sit on a council..yet.

and speaking of those other races, don't you think they deserve a say? or are you going to be JUST like the council that you claim is so wrong? I thought it was immoral? or wait, you think its just fine, as long as you are the one who gets to call the shots?

Of course, all races are equal. But some are just a little bit more equal.

In all, my "political ideal" is as follows:

All races willing to join the Council are admitted, but the real power rests with the Systems Alliance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 09:55 .

[AdmiralCheez]

]As I said, I don't go on with his wish to keep the Base blindly. Even if I did, it be justified, becasue he has more information and better access to it than I. TIM > Shepard > everyone else.

Nor did I make my decision on blind trust alone.  However, the fact that TIM's been shady about sharing his information and could have potentially gotten his four-billion-dollar baby killed because of it leads me to believe he is not a reliable source.

Also there is no "my" logic. There is only the logic. Therefore, if it is present in TIM's reasoning (and it is), there can't be a differing logical reasoning.

I tremble before your semantics, oh ye of superior intellect. e_e

It is very possible to reach two different conclusions using logical deduction.  Take, for example, this parabola:



Now suppose I asked you to name a point at which the parabola intersects the X axis.  You could say either 6 or -5.  Both are correct.  If I came out and told you that you were wrong for picking 6, that wouldn't be fair because I didn't give you enough information--I never said I wanted the answer on the left side of the Y axis.

The determining factor here is the amount of information present.  As of now, we don't have enough evidence either way to tell who is right on this issue.  One can claim to have a higher probability attached to his or her preferred outcome, but their flavor of answer is not guaranteed to be true.  In other words, we are forced to gamble.  I argue that, since Cerberus has been untrustworthy and destructive in the past, they will continue to be so in the future.  It's a hypothesis waiting to be verified, one that I created through the normal method of scientific inquiry--observation and research.  Yes, my own personal instinct had a factor in my decision, which could be considered bad science, but it will not infringe upon future data collection.  If blowing the base turns out to screw me over, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.  That's science, and science is applied logic.

Why not a lucky dime?

A lucky dime doesn't have the luxury of personal experience.  Additionally, we aren't always aware of what exactly brings us to a certain conclusion.  Say, for example, you are taking a test, and you spontaneously remember the answer to a question.  You have no idea where the hell that answer came from, but the epiphany is too clear to ignore.  This is what I mean by instinct and gut feeling; our brains are tricky bastards that have a habit of supplying us with information without citing the appropriate sources.  Mine happened to practically be screaming "DO NOT GIVE TIM THAT BASE."  I can't pinpoint why, but there's obviously some sort of subconscious process going on in their that knows what the f*ck it's doing.

There is a line between mistrust and stupidity too.

OK, I said it.

Well, let's see, trust the people that kidnap babies to turn into super-soldiers, feed people to thresher maws, and spend four billion credits to bring me back from the dead, only to intentionally send me into a trap because, "oh, we figured you could handle it?"

I cannot stare at the screen incredulously enough.

Look at it this way: You find out about a secret organization that's working to make your country the dominant world power.  They assassinate people, conduct horrific experiments, kidnap children, and infiltrate top government positions to get their way.  Now, let's say you are an incredible patriot and want to see your nation succeed, plus these shady fellows just did you an enormous favor.  However, would you seriously hand a nuclear warhead or some horrible bio-weapon over to these guys?  Even if there was a horrible race of aliens on the way that had far superior technology and the intention to eradicate all life on Earth?

Frankly, I'd be busy trying to coordinate a global defense plan, one that involves the cooperation of governments that absolutely hate each other.  It would be a very tricky and furstrating process, but absolutely necessary if we don't want to get ourselves wiped out.  The last thing I need is for one of them to find out I've been funding a terrorist organization that has been making their lives hell, nor do I want to be constantly worrying about said terrorists doing something really stupid with that nuke I just gave them.  Pooling our collective resources would yield a better end result than relying on our own, even if we have the best equipment available.

It's jus relax time then.

Madalore, you silly goose.

[jeweledleah]

@ Cheez

@ Zulu - wow.  just wow. 

Modifié par jeweledleah, 06 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[Pwener2313]

Callidus Thorn wrote...

If the only way to stop the Reapers is to give TIM the base, why the hell give us the option to destroy it? Just so at the end of ME3 they can say "F*** you, because you weren't allied with TIM in ME2, the Reapers kill everything. HA HA HA!!!"

This guy obviously did ot read my metagaming post.

[Callidus Thorn]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Callidus Thorn wrote...

If the only way to stop the Reapers is to give TIM the base, why the hell give us the option to destroy it? Just so at the end of ME3 they can say "F*** you, because you weren't allied with TIM in ME2, the Reapers kill everything. HA HA HA!!!"

This guy obviously did ot read my metagaming post.

Read it, but my post was more directed at Zulu, who's basically saying "if you don't give TIM the collector base, the galaxy is doomed to extinction"

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]AdmiralCheez wrote...

It is very possible to reach two different conclusions using logical deduction.
[/quote]

That's true, and I don't need your parabola for that. It all depends on the premises. And it is assumed that we all (as Shepards, the Saviours of the Galaxy) have the same premises:

1. If we can't find a way to stop the Reapers, we're all dead.
2. We don't want to be all dead.
3. The Reapers have a lot of power. Their weaknesses, if any, are unknown to us.
4. To stop them, we must have more power than they, and/or learn their weaknesses.
5. The base may contain some power-ups and/or information on the Reapers' weaknesses.

That's about it. If you don't share any of these, or want to add something, feel free.

But remember, post-Reaper anything shouldn't factor in this, or you're not really a Savior of the Galaxy.[/quote]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 10:07 .

[emmanuelsieyes]

From a gameplay standpoint, Shepard doesn't have any advanced intelligence on what is inside the base.

However, we can conclude a few things definitely have to be inside the Collector Base.

1. Life support for Collector species/Harbinger's control mechanism.

As Mordin points out, the Collector species is clearly dependant on tech to survive. Critical organs have been replaced with synthetics. It's likely that the tech used to make Collectors is also the basis for the tech that controls Husks.

It is revealed at the end of ME2 that the Collector General, who appears to be Harbinger's avatar, is operating out of the Collector Base. Therefore, the Collector Base is the central control point for (at least) control of the collectors. Now, no matter how ME2 ends, the Collectors have been eliminated. One of their cruisers has been destroyed, the CG, and therefore, their command/control has been killed.

2. Reaper construction facilities.

Obviously the collector base is being used to construct the Human-Reaper. The space station itself is not large, the animation at the beginning shows the path that Shepard and co take. This path covers the majority of the facility. Since the Reapers (proper) are located in dark space, they're using the Collector Base as their major construction facility.

_HOWEVER_

The Human-Reaper appears to be a very different design from Sovereign and the other reapers. If Reapers are built from organic material distilled from the species used to create them, then obviously each Reaper is going to have its differences. I would expect that the Reapers reuse technology, for instance, communications and power generation are likely to be standardized. However, Shepard is not going to be fighting a human-reaper. Shepard is going to be fighting older Reapers, which are clearly of different design.

3. Weapons. The Collector Base does not appear to have any defenses save for the cruiser which the SR2 encounters. The primary defense mechanism is jumping would-be explorers into a black hole. The Human-Reaper is obviously going to have some weapons systems, however, the Human-Reaper was also destroyed. Even if we can recover the blueprints, there's absolutely no guarantee that the council species can duplicate those weapons in time.

Imagine giving a group of high school students access to a semiconductor fabrication facility, as well as the masks used to fabricate an Intel processor. Just because they have the tech available, doesn't mean they'll be able to figure it out in a reasonable timeframe.

4. Reaper communcation systems.

Harbinger had to communicate with the CG from dark space. It is highly likely that CB is a major communication point for Reaper control of the collectors. The CB, however, does not have any control of the mass relay network. Since the CG has been eliminated, no matter what, the CB is not likely to be a major part of the Reaper's plans.

5. Indoctrination. The Reapers didn't need to indoctrinate the Collectors. They had tech inside their nervous systems that would make indoctrination redundant. The human-reaper would have indoctrination systems installed, however, the human reaper is also a giant puddle of slag. If TIM were to be subject to indoctrination, it would be a disaster. It would be Saren all over again.

With that in mind:

I try and come up with a roleplaying reason to destroy/save the base.

However, my current playthrough is going to save the collector base. I am not concerned about a power grab by TIM. Cerberus would be more powerful with Collector technology. However, I have spent the last two games building up various factions to ensure that nobody is too powerful. I have Miranda, who knows the exact location of TIM's base. I'm still a Spectre. They haven't been helpful with the Reapers, but I guarantee you they will do whatever it takes to kill TIM if he attacks Turian/Salarian/Asari interests. I am on _very_ good terms with the Shadow Broker, who has detailed intel on the Illusive Man (I know how many cigarettes he smoked, clearly, the SB has a lot of people inside Cerberus).

Also, the collector base cannot be compared with the Rachni. The Collector Base is ready to go, stocked with the technology. At the end of the Noveria mission, all of the rachni (save the queen) are dead. Even the queen doesn't have control of any soldiers. It is going to take the queen years to produce any kind of military. The council knows about the rachni queen. Clearly, if they rachni queen is going to try and attack the council races again, they will be able to take her out easily.

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

@ Zulu - wow.  just wow. 

What?

BTW, If  I had to go with a three-race Council, I'd put there the Humans, naturally, the Salarians, and the Volus. The latter would be welcome to make the Turians their client state.

[emmanuelsieyes]

Human/Salarian/Volus council.

Okay, so now the humans have to do all of the combat.

That also doesn't discount the fact that the Turians and Asari are not going to let humans take over. The Turians have like a 5:1 dreadnaught advantage, and the Asari have the best biotics in the ME universe.

[Zulu_DFA]

Callidus Thorn wrote...

If the only way to stop the Reapers is to give TIM the base, why the hell give us the option to destroy it? Just so at the end of ME3 they can say "F*** you, because you weren't allied with TIM in ME2, the Reapers kill everything. HA HA HA!!!"

As ME2 is "just a game", the reasoning "I blew it, because it's just a game", is prefectly valid. However, from the in-universe perspective, the role-playing perspective, it is invalid, because your Shepard can't know that he is not real, and that "it's just a game". Therefore, that reasoning can't be his reasoning, which is kind of the subject of this discussion.

[jeweledleah]

Zulu, do you really want me to pull a racist/supremacist card?

some races are more equal then others......

edited from IN universe perspective, giving dangerous technology to a dangerous manipulative madman is not a smart thing to do.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 06 mars 2011 - 10:24 .

[Zulu_DFA]

emmanuelsieyes wrote...

Human/Salarian/Volus council.

Okay, so now the humans have to do all of the combat.

That also doesn't discount the fact that the Turians and Asari are not going to let humans take over. The Turians have like a 5:1 dreadnaught advantage, and the Asari have the best biotics in the ME universe.

I have a perfect plan of campaign that will render the Turian fleet completely ineffective, but it:

a) is classified;

does not belong in a "C-Base choice" thread.

emmanuelsieyes wrote...

I have Miranda, who knows the exact location of TIM's base.

She doesn't. It is revealed in Retribution that TIM's base can be relocated between star systems.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 10:39 .

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

Zulu, do you really want me to pull a racist/supremacist card?

no

jeweledleah wrote...

some races are more equal then others......

At least it's a bit more of an euphemism than the "lesser races".

jeweledleah wrote...

edited from IN universe perspective, giving dangerous technology to a dangerous manipulative madman is not a smart thing to do.

Since the "dangerous manipulative madman" seems to be the only one with brains and wit to make the acquisition of that technology possible, you have to either give it to him, of forfeit it. Just remember, that those other guys already have loads of it, and they are poised to use all towards your and everybody's destruction. Given the odds, I wouldn't even need a lucky dime to take my chances with the "madman".

[Pwener2313]

These thread never a civil discussion of people sitting down, and talking *peacefully* about they'reown reactions and idea. Noooooo, it always has to be a flame battle of one side (Zulu) and the other (everyone else).

[Pwener2313]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I have a perfect plan of campaign that will render the Turian fleet completely ineffective, but it:

a) is classified;

does not belong in a "C-Base choice" thread.

Your full of it.....

*hopes that inverted psichology work*