803 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Read an argument a few pages back... how does keeping the Collector Base result in a human dominated galaxy? I'm thinking as hard as I can but I don't know how an organization consisting of a hundred or so operatives having superior technology means humans rule the galaxy.

More so considering I saved the base and saved the Council.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Dave of Canada: It doesn't, and if I was the one that said that, I'm sorry for arguing something so inherently derpy. Wouldn't put it past TIM to try, though.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I must say I'm GREATLY enjoying the debate between Cheez and Zulu. You two are just amazing.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 07 mars 2011 - 08:33 .

[Moiaussi]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Read an argument a few pages back... how does keeping the Collector Base result in a human dominated galaxy? I'm thinking as hard as I can but I don't know how an organization consisting of a hundred or so operatives having superior technology means humans rule the galaxy.

More so considering I saved the base and saved the Council.

Saving it isn't handing it to the Council though, it is handing it to TIM. Depending on what is in there, it could make Cerberus an actual threat when we really don't need additional threats. They don't have to be capable of takeover on their own to enable a Reaper win. Consider how much information they kept conceiled from the Council and Alliance, as well as doing their absolute best to destroy any credibility Shepard had with them.

Consider also that the Collectors didn't have any more manpower backing that base than Cerberus. Don't underestimate the potential risk.

Destroying the base loses any any tech EDI wasn't able to pull from its systems, but keeps Cerberus more 'honest.'

[Zulu_DFA]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I must say I'm GREATLY enjoying the debate between Cheez and Zulu. You two are just amazing. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Tonight on BSN: "Screw the Galaxy", the talk show of all times!!!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2011 - 10:36 .

[Undertone]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Arijiharn: Of course we're serious about defeating the Reapers. We just figured there's a better way than letting a madman tinker with dangerous technology. Or did you not notice his crazy speech when you blow the base/creepy smile when you keep it? The CB may have been an asset, but TIM's too much of a liability. He's like a monkey playing with dynamite.

Oh yeah, and he spent four billion credits to bring back one person from the dead because she was "a symbol." Honestly, TIM, what the hell were you even thinking? You're lucky Shepard happens to be the main character and therefore has plot immunity, otherwise the Lazarus Project would have been the dumbest move Cerberus has pulled yet.


I would have gladly kept the CB if TIM wasn't batsh*t insane. Or did it slip your mind that he intentionally lured the Collectors to Horizon without at least informing you first? That he sent you into a trap only a few
missions
later? He's completely irresponsible and has no regard for human
lives. It's power he wants, not survival, and he'll gladly screw over
Earth and everyone else if it means that he and his little club come out
on top. The little bugger will happily sabotage the war effort for his
own ends. Billions, possibly trillions will die to satisfy his ego.

We're not handing the galaxy over to the Reapers on a silver platter by destroying the base; we're making sure TIM doesn't do their job for them.

Besides, we still have Ilos, the Citadel, the STG, and the Shadow Broker's information network. Chances are, all the intel and tech we need is already out there. Like I said before, we simply have to pool our resources.

(I don't really hate TIM--he's a fascinating character and a pretty cool dude. However, after just running through Horizon again and listening to what our darling illusive friend has to say about the whole issue, I am definitely not going to empower him any further. "Oh yeah, I let it slip you came back from the dead to work for us so the Collectors would go after your friends, herp derp." Sheesh.)

(even the site hates Renegades, ****ed up my formatting had to fix)

You and I have done this before but if everyone's doing it why not. Progress and knowledge are the most
important factors in the galaxy and pretty much in general in life. Lookat what the Prothean cache on Jupiter or whatever planet it was gave us - it gaves us the means to become a solar-faring race and the ability to expand beyond our mere solar system. As your favourite mentor puts it - "it jumped our technologies 200 years forward" or something of that sort.

Now aside Shepard's agenda (human dominance or galactic co-operation) there's no way for you to know if we have sufficient resources to defeat the Reapers. We have virtually seen only 1 (actually 2) and have no idea about their numbers, their tech (with few exceptions) and if it there's difference between individual Reapers as ME2 seem to suggest.

With that in mind I am not going to argue about how human dominance is better then galactic
co-operation (simpler system easier to guide and control then more complex since more variables) (sorry I actually did  ) but about resources - the Council is one, Cerberus is one, SB is one etc.

Saving the base doesn't necessarily means you are handling it to Cerberus -
the base is your physical proof of the Reapers existance. This is your answer to convincing the stupid Council before the Reapers actually arrive. EDI has the IFF and as evidenced by Cerberus it can be mass produced. So you can bring your happy team of turians, salarians, asari to the base to do research on it.

And like many people said before - better to have it and not need it rather then need it but not have it. That is why regardless of ideology, I will always save the base. Whether I was playing a human dominance Shep or a
co-operation one. It just adds another resource with the potential of the Prothetian cache.



As for TIM, that's purely speculation on your part. Otherwise it has been said - info is on the need to know basis. It happens everywhere in the military. Your favourite mentor (Anderson) does it himself. Also Horizon verifiies if the Reapers are actually specifically interested in Shepard. TIM might be ambitious, but is also logical and calculating. Even if you are right about him and he wants tobe the Emperor of the Galaxy, we still need to defeat the Reapers. Something he has committed and acted upon so far.

As your favourite turian (Garrus) says it - It's important to look at the bigger picture. Cerberus is very small part of that bigger picture. Against such odds you need all the resources you can get. Especially such a big resource as the CB.

Modifié par Undertone, 07 mars 2011 - 12:08 .

[nevar00]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

Man, this discussion is never gonna stop. Metagaming, the Collector Base won't do a damn thing against the Reapers. Cerberus is just going to use it to allow Humanity to dominate all other races.

Nobody with an ounce of moral fiber would oppose that either.

what is this I dont even

[Dean_the_Young]

Edited out. No point.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 mars 2011 - 01:57 .

[Doctor Solus]

Undertone wrote...

(even the site hates Renegades, ****ed up my formatting had to fix)

You and I have done this before but if everyone's doing it why not. Progress and knowledge are the most
important factors in the galaxy and pretty much in general in life. Lookat what the Prothean cache on Jupiter or whatever planet it was gave us - it gaves us the means to become a solar-faring race and the ability to expand beyond our mere solar system. As your favourite mentor puts it - "it jumped our technologies 200 years forward" or something of that sort.

Now aside Shepard's agenda (human dominance or galactic co-operation) there's no way for you to know if we have sufficient resources to defeat the Reapers. We have virtually seen only 1 (actually 2) and have no idea about their numbers, their tech (with few exceptions) and if it there's difference between individual Reapers as ME2 seem to suggest.

With that in mind I am not going to argue about how human dominance is better then galactic
co-operation (simpler system easier to guide and control then more complex since more variables) (sorry I actually did  ) but about resources - the Council is one, Cerberus is one, SB is one etc.

Saving the base doesn't necessarily means you are handling it to Cerberus -
the base is your physical proof of the Reapers existance. This is your answer to convincing the stupid Council before the Reapers actually arrive. EDI has the IFF and as evidenced by Cerberus it can be mass produced. So you can bring your happy team of turians, salarians, asari to the base to do research on it.

And like many people said before - better to have it and not need it rather then need it but not have it. That is why regardless of ideology, I will always save the base. Whether I was playing a human dominance Shep or a
co-operation one. It just adds another resource with the potential of the Prothetian cache.



As for TIM, that's purely speculation on your part. Otherwise it has been said - info is on the need to know basis. It happens everywhere in the military. Your favourite mentor (Anderson) does it himself. Also Horizon verifiies if the Reapers are actually specifically interested in Shepard. TIM might be ambitious, but is also logical and calculating. Even if you are right about him and he wants tobe the Emperor of the Galaxy, we still need to defeat the Reapers. Something he has committed and acted upon so far.

As your favourite turian (Garrus) says it - It's important to look at the bigger picture. Cerberus is very small part of that bigger picture. Against such odds you need all the resources you can get. Especially such a big resource as the CB.

Thank you, for writing pretty much my opinion in a well formed way! 

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Read an argument a few pages back... how does keeping the Collector Base result in a human dominated galaxy? I'm thinking as hard as I can but I don't know how an organization consisting of a hundred or so operatives having superior technology means humans rule the galaxy.

More so considering I saved the base and saved the Council.

The ways it could lead to human dominance are the ways in which it is least totalitarian and dicatorial: the seeding of strategically advantageous tech over time, augmented with selective applications of the 'good' stuff on a small scale that could only shift events. The single greatest 'threat' to outright human dominance is TIM mastering indoctrination and indoctrinating the Council/leadership of other races... and even that's rather tame on the 'as bad as the Reapers' scale, because if the subjects are indoctrinated too much, it's obvious (subject breakdown), and if subtle indoctrination is used to blatantly (pressuring leaders to make too many concessions), those leaders would be replaced with non-'soft' leaders, and if indoctrination was used too widespread (trying to indoctrinate all non humans or some such), the advantage would be undermined completely as races notice, investigate, and research the Indoctrination sources on their own.


Mostly, though, it would be like what the Collectors did as the MO for centuries: give specific groups decisive tech edges right above the galactic curve where everyone is going anyway, and using the huge tech-lead of the Collector Base to do that for a long, but finite, amount of time. Cerberus would funnel those towards pro-human select groups. After an initial, relative splurge for use against the Reapers (not as much as you might want, but more than you could otherwise count on), keep the later/rest of the tech gains close to the chest and spin them out over time, gradually building widespread advantages to human interests and groups and making them established so that by the time the tech gains of the Collector base run out (because everyone has long since studied the usage of them, and the Reapers), Human interests are entrenched on their own right.

This could be in 'tactical' warfare (when human 'freedom fighters' are having a colony dispute with, say, Batarians, funnel advanced arms to the humans to win the colony outright), or in long-term economic struggles (beat the Asari biotic craftsmen guilds with derivatives or Collector/Reaper biotic boosters, and drive them out of business), or even in galactic balance-of-power arrangements (Turians have an established fleet, but the Alliance starts to have a noticable quality advantage in terms of shielding and weaponry thanks to 'Alliance research projects' that shifts more military recognition to the Alliance). 


Cerberus doesn't have the numbers, or the support, to implement a human conquest of the galaxy if it wanted to. And that's among the humans as a whole, and assuming conquest is deemed as desirable. And if Cerberus does a mass-dump of the Collector Base at once for transitory benefits, that's still transitory in and of itself.

The only plausible long-term Cerberus-oriented gains from the Collector Base are the ones that least match the fears of Cerberus starting a war of conquest and oppression before, during, or  after the Reapers come.

[tausra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mostly, though, it would be like what the Collectors did as the MO for centuries: give specific groups decisive tech edges right above the galactic curve where everyone is going anyway, and using the huge tech-lead of the Collector Base to do that for a long, but finite, amount of time. Cerberus would funnel those towards pro-human select groups. After an initial, relative splurge for use against the Reapers (not as much as you might want, but more than you could otherwise count on), keep the later/rest of the tech gains close to the chest and spin them out over time, gradually building widespread advantages to human interests and groups and making them established so that by the time the tech gains of the Collector base run out (because everyone has long since studied the usage of them, and the Reapers), Human interests are entrenched on their own right.

This could be in 'tactical' warfare (when human 'freedom fighters' are having a colony dispute with, say, Batarians, funnel advanced arms to the humans to win the colony outright), or in long-term economic struggles (beat the Asari biotic craftsmen guilds with derivatives or Collector/Reaper biotic boosters, and drive them out of business), or even in galactic balance-of-power arrangements (Turians have an established fleet, but the Alliance starts to have a noticable quality advantage in terms of shielding and weaponry thanks to 'Alliance research projects' that shifts more military recognition to the Alliance). 


Cerberus doesn't have the numbers, or the support, to implement a human conquest of the galaxy if it wanted to. And that's among the humans as a whole, and assuming conquest is deemed as desirable. And if Cerberus does a mass-dump of the Collector Base at once for transitory benefits, that's still transitory in and of itself.

The only plausible long-term Cerberus-oriented gains from the Collector Base are the ones that least match the fears of Cerberus starting a war of conquest and oppression before, during, or  after the Reapers come.

This is why I always blow up the base.

Undertone wrote...
Lookat what the Prothean cache on Jupiter or whatever planet it was gave
us - it gaves us the means to become a solar-faring race and the
ability to expand beyond our mere solar system. As your favourite mentor
puts it - "it jumped our technologies 200 years forward" or something
of that sort.

That large of a leap in one location, discovered by human-centric organization with cells all over the galaxy and connections that go even further, sounds safe to me! I compare it to the discovery of a hidden cache of Russian nuclear weapons by Terrorists. They don't have the muscle to declare themselves the ruler of the world, but they have the technology to ruin everyone else.

[jeweledleah]

my issue with renegade players is that they thing its their way or highway. its like they have to justify their ruthless choices by trying to prove that they are the only possible choices. all choices have consequences. all of them. the choice comes down to - which consequences are you willing to live with. and no, contrary to what you all wish to believe, keeping the base will not result in assured win, while destroying it will result in assured loss.

sometimes reading to renegade players makes me wish for bioware to design it so that they crush and burn terribly, just to stop this stream of unwarranted smugness. and I play renegade...not as much as paragon but I play it.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

 and even that's rather tame on the 'as bad as the Reapers' scale, because if the subjects are indoctrinated too much, it's obvious (subject breakdown), and if subtle indoctrination is used to blatantly (pressuring leaders to make too many concessions), those leaders would be replaced with non-'soft' leaders, and if indoctrination was used too widespread (trying to indoctrinate all non humans or some such), the advantage would be undermined completely as races notice, investigate, and research the Indoctrination sources on their own.

He doesn't have to control them. This is politics, and the very side effect you are talking about works in his favour. Rather than have them suddenly engaging in pro-cerberus activities, he is better off making them incompetent. A series of sufficiently incompetent Asari, Turian and Salarian leaders, and the other races might actually start looking to humanity for a source of leadership, for change. Simultaneously, he is bringing the other races down by ensuring they have bad leadership.

Cerberus doesn't have the numbers, or the support, to implement a human conquest of the galaxy if it wanted to. And that's among the humans as a whole, and assuming conquest is deemed as desirable. And if Cerberus does a mass-dump of the Collector Base at once for transitory benefits, that's still transitory in and of itself.

The only plausible long-term Cerberus-oriented gains from the Collector Base are the ones that least match the fears of Cerberus starting a war of conquest and oppression before, during, or  after the Reapers come.

The Collectors didn't really have much more manpower than Cerberus. TIM had already undermined the situation to ensure that only he would have the intel on them, and thus the other powers are still in the dark regarding swarms, etc. That means he could potentially start the reaper building process again himself if he wanted to. There are still other colonies in the Terminus systems. Why go after Earth when you could go after Illium, which is much closer and a LOT less defended?

Not saying he would succeed, but he'd have enough resources to give it a really good try, and a rather lot of people would die in the process.

[Dean_the_Young]

tausra wrote...
This is why I always blow up the base.

That's a horrible basis for blowing up the base.

That large of a leap in one location, discovered by human-centric organization with cells all over the galaxy and connections that go even further, sounds safe to me! I compare it to the discovery of a hidden cache of Russian nuclear weapons by Terrorists. They don't have the muscle to declare themselves the ruler of the world, but they have the technology to ruin everyone else.

Why would Cerberus ruin it for everyone else? Even if they could, which isn't clear, that doesn't benefit Humanity.

If there's something that history has shown, it's that dominating the poor is a miserable affair and drain.

[jeweledleah]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

tausra wrote...
This is why I always blow up the base.

That's a horrible basis for blowing up the base.

That large of a leap in one location, discovered by human-centric organization with cells all over the galaxy and connections that go even further, sounds safe to me! I compare it to the discovery of a hidden cache of Russian nuclear weapons by Terrorists. They don't have the muscle to declare themselves the ruler of the world, but they have the technology to ruin everyone else.

Why would Cerberus ruin it for everyone else? Even if they could, which isn't clear, that doesn't benefit Humanity.

If there's something that history has shown, it's that dominating the poor is a miserable affair and drain.

you are assuming that TIM's motives are to benefit humanity rather then himself.

[Xilizhra]

If there's something that history has shown, it's that dominating the poor is a miserable affair and drain.

And yet people keep doing it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

He doesn't have to control them. This is politics, and the very side effect you are talking about works in his favour. Rather than have them suddenly engaging in pro-cerberus activities, he is better off making them incompetent. A series of sufficiently incompetent Asari, Turian and Salarian leaders, and the other races might actually start looking to humanity for a source of leadership, for change. Simultaneously, he is bringing the other races down by ensuring they have bad leadership.

States and nations have a way of building lower-level competencies when higher-level leadership starts to fail, and those lower-level competencies generally reform the higher ones.

One of the reasons the US military is one of the most professional and skilled militaries in the world right now, for example, is because of our (surprisingly not all-common) NCO core. And the NCO core in large part developed to mitigate a long series of wars with... mixed officer quality levels.


Even so, none of that comes close to being worse than the Reapers, which is the real measure.

The Collectors didn't really have much more manpower than Cerberus. TIM had already undermined the situation to ensure that only he would have the intel on them, and thus the other powers are still in the dark regarding swarms, etc. That means he could potentially start the reaper building process again himself if he wanted to. There are still other colonies in the Terminus systems.

The Collectors danger wasn't in their manpower, it was in their
seclusion behind the Omega 4 relay. Short of killing Shepard first thing
(which, for a number of reasons, can't and doesn't happen), Cerberus
can't claim or rely on a monopology of inaccessibility behind the Omega 4
relay.

Cerberus can't even count on the absolute loyalty and secrecy the collectors could either: even the Cerberus Cheerleader, an unapologetic Cerberus defender and advocate, had moral qualms. In a scenario of this sort, even one defection would be ruinous.

Why go after Earth when you could go after Illium, which is much closer and a LOT less defended?

Why go after the homeworld of a large, non-hostile (economic) super-power of a race that was already disqualified for Reaperification in the first place, in hopes of trying to produce... one Reaper, when the galaxy is either gearing up to or has already killed hundreds of the things?

It's completely stupid from start to finish: why target the Asari, why target anyone and tip your hand off, why invest so much in building an individual Reaper when you could capitalize on the technology in so many more effective, less expensive, and less noticed ways?

The Reapers smoothie people to ascend the race, not because it's a necessity to produce or replicate their technology. Why would anyone go so far out of their way to pay more for less?

Not saying he would succeed, but he'd have enough resources to give it a really good try, and a rather lot of people would die in the process.

Which is still far, far better than the losses if we lose the Reaper War.

Even if we do assume stupid on a scale and of a type never seen or evidenced before.

[Gentleman Moogle]

See, here's the thing; I've never believed that cerberus is out to 'help humanity'. Based on their actions in ME1, and based on TIM's actions in ME2, I find it increasingly likely that they are out to help a 'portion' of Humanity. Namely, their own selves.

TIM is a lying, deceitful bastard. We can't trust anything he says. From what I've seen, he's manipulated Shepard and company from the very beginning. We STILL don't know how much of what he's told us is true and how much is false. For all we know, he could have rebuilt Shepard with Reapertech and installed a control chip, despite telling Miranda that he hadn't. We've already seen that he's more than willing to lie to achieve his own goals (Collector ship mission, anyone?), why in the world would we trust him with something as monumentous as the CB?

I know exactly two things.

1. Bert and Ernie are gay.

2. TIM can't be trusted.

[Dean_the_Young]

jeweledleah wrote...

you are assuming that TIM's motives are to benefit humanity rather then himself.

From external views to TIM's own inner thoughts, nothing has suggested otherwise. Even in Retribution, he tied personal desire to a practical interest. Mixing business and personal desire was a mistake, but he didn't act for personal desire alone.

To date, nothing has suggested TIM's stated position and desire are a smoke screen, and none of his projects have been shown or implied to have been for purely personal benefit. The man is a hedonist, but above that he's also a idealogue.

Xilizhra wrote...

If there's something that history has shown, it's that dominating the poor is a miserable affair and drain.

And yet people keep doing it.

Arguable: there's a difference between 'poor' and 'poorer'. The most enduring systems have preserved dominance by giving the underclasses an investment in the system that the poor value: whether ideology or giving better lives, enduring dominance is supported by giving things of value to the ones not dominant.

[Dean_the_Young]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

See, here's the thing; I've never believed that cerberus is out to 'help humanity'. Based on their actions in ME1, and based on TIM's actions in ME2, I find it increasingly likely that they are out to help a 'portion' of Humanity. Namely, their own selves.

Are you speaking of the results of experiments, or the intents? In ME1, our Cerberus involvements were that they were studying Husks samples from exo-geni (hardly a pure-selfishness), attempting a super-soldier cannon-fodder project, and harness Rachni as soldiers. These failed to various degrees or for various reasons, but they were hardly TIM-vendetta or vanity projects.

TIM is a lying, deceitful bastard. We can't trust anything he says. From what I've seen, he's manipulated Shepard and company from the very beginning. We STILL don't know how much of what he's told us is true and how much is false. For all we know, he could have rebuilt Shepard with Reapertech and installed a control chip, despite telling Miranda that he hadn't. We've already seen that he's more than willing to lie to achieve his own goals (Collector ship mission, anyone?), why in the world would we trust him with something as monumentous as the CB?

Why do you trust anyone who doesn't have a control chip in their head and the  controller in your hand?

Why do you believe anyone, ever, when all interaction is based upon putting others to your own use, for whatever purpose that is? Not one person on your ship isn't using others for their own benefit, and they're just as open about it as the Illusive Man.

I know exactly two things.

1. Bert and Ernie are gay.

2. TIM can't be trusted.

By your standard, you can't trust anyone.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 mars 2011 - 06:51 .

[Gentleman Moogle]

Oh, I can trust people; unfortunately, I know from experience that TIM has lied to me on several occasions. To my face. Even admitted it. And in doing so, placed me and my crew in mortal danger. And his reason for doing so? "Oh, I knew you could handle yourself."

Yeah.

Right.

Handle THIS, ****.

Seriously, the guy has done nothing but manipulate you from day one. His experiments border on the stupid, his network is set up like terrorist cells, he personally directs every operation that goes on (We learn that from EDI after Joker releases her blocks)... So no, I'm sorry, but I can't trust this guy. We know nothing of his motives except what he has told us.

And, gee hoss, y'think he might be just a touch biased as to the rightness of his own actions?

I trust lots of people. Just not people who lie and manipulate to my face, then admit they lied and manipulated me to my face.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If there's something that history has shown, it's that dominating the poor is a miserable affair and drain.

And yet people keep doing it.

You can't argue with results.

I would argue with the results, on the basis for why the results occured. (As I did.) Dominance without benefit to the dominated is a losing affair: governments crumble at the first fault, occupations remain bloody and expensive, and even parents will lose their children.

It's dominance that provides things of value that endures. The Council races don't remain strong by only oppressing the weak: the Council races maintain a system that helps the weak, but helps them far more. Goverenments that endure changes and troubles are governments that provide security, identity, and/or prosperity to their citizenry. Policemen provide protection: teachers provide education: governance provides order.

Dominating the poor, in and of itself, has meager results. Dominating the poor and making them richer, on the other hand, makes you great.

[Labrev]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

See, here's the thing; I've never believed that cerberus is out to 'help humanity'. Based on their actions in ME1, and based on TIM's actions in ME2, I find it increasingly likely that they are out to help a 'portion' of Humanity. Namely, their own selves.

Are you speaking of the results of experiments, or the intents? In ME1, our Cerberus involvements were that they were studying Husks samples from exo-geni (hardly a pure-selfishness), attempting a super-soldier cannon-fodder project, and harness Rachni as soldiers. These failed to various degrees or for various reasons, but they were hardly TIM-vendetta or vanity projects.

TIM is a lying, deceitful bastard. We can't trust anything he says. From what I've seen, he's manipulated Shepard and company from the very beginning. We STILL don't know how much of what he's told us is true and how much is false. For all we know, he could have rebuilt Shepard with Reapertech and installed a control chip, despite telling Miranda that he hadn't. We've already seen that he's more than willing to lie to achieve his own goals (Collector ship mission, anyone?), why in the world would we trust him with something as monumentous as the CB?

Why do you trust anyone who doesn't have a control chip in their head and the  controller in your hand?

Why do you believe anyone, ever, when all interaction is based upon putting others to your own use, for whatever purpose that is? Not one person on your ship isn't using others for their own benefit, and they're just as open about it as the Illusive Man.

I know exactly two things.

1. Bert and Ernie are gay.

2. TIM can't be trusted.

By your standard, you can't trust anyone.

Add to the list for Cerberus:
- Killing off Alliance Marines by luring them into Tresher Maw nests.
- Torturing Corpral Toombs.
- Jack and other biotic kids.
- Killing Admiral Kahoku out of pure spite and using his body for twisted experiments.

It's easy to feel like you can trust them when they put you in the position that they put Shepard in. But what would you think if you were Kahoku, Jack, Toombs, or the Marines that got killed?

Seriously, these guys are ****s. You can't justify those things as "humanity's best interest" because it is still conducting wrongful, criminal activity. I'm sure the ****s were convinced that what they were doing was in the best interests for the human race, they didn't just commit genocide. They performed twisted experiments on other human beings too. And they may have made some interesting discoveries too, but it's still wrong. It's stuff that simply has no moral grounding whatsoever.

If you want to experiment with Tresher Maw venom, test in legally in a science lab. If it's not legal, it's not legal (and you can see now why the rule was in place).

[Dean_the_Young]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Oh, I can trust people;

How? You never answer this.

It isn't because they're immediately and upfront about all their interests.

It isn't because they never try and shape your opinion with selective information.

It isn't they never want you to do things for them, and so will do various things for them.

unfortunately, I know from experience that TIM has lied to me on several occasions. To my face. Even admitted it. And in doing so, placed me and my crew in mortal danger. And his reason for doing so? "Oh, I knew you could handle yourself."

Yeah.

Right.

Handle THIS, ****.

It's almost like Shepard is a soldier or something.

Crazy, I know.

Seriously, the guy has done nothing but manipulate you from day one.

Inherency, and applies to your entire team. Jacob and Miranda are Cerberus idealists (of different sorts) who use you for family issues. Jack uses you for a ride off a station, and for revenge. Garrus has self-esteem issues. Grunt what's to fight. Kasumi and Zaeed are in it for money and a favor from you. Samara is using you as a loophole. Thane has a death-wish. Tali is crushing.

Who, in the game, helps you because they are selfless?

His experiments border on the stupid,

But potently valuable.

his network is set up like terrorist cells,

And terrorist cells are modeled after resistence cells, and resistence cells really came into being to fight the fascists.

So is this a good mark or a bad?

he personally directs every operation that goes on (We learn that from EDI after Joker releases her blocks)...

Actually, we don't. He doesn't direct. Pretty much every single Cerberus project we come across is decidedly hands-off.

So no, I'm sorry, but I can't trust this guy. We know nothing of his motives except what he has told us.

We know a lot of what he has done, and why.

And, gee hoss, y'think he might be just a touch biased as to the rightness of his own actions?

I trust lots of people. Just not people who lie and manipulate to my face, then admit they lied and manipulated me to my face.

Since everyone lies (polite lies, white lies, big lies or small), you'd prefer the dishonest liar who won't even come clean afterwards when confronted, and will admit to being willing to do so in advance?

That's a bit silly.