803 réponses à ce sujet

[Labrev]

Excuse me, I didn't know of the filter.

The **** refers to an infamous Facist group from WWII

[Dean_the_Young]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Add to the list for Cerberus:
- Killing off Alliance Marines by luring them into Tresher Maw nests.
- Torturing Corpral Toombs.
- Jack and other biotic kids.
- Killing Admiral Kahoku out of pure spite and using his body for twisted experiments.



It's easy to feel like you can trust them when they put you in the position that they put Shepard in. But what would you think if you were Kahoku, Jack, Toombs, or the Marines that got killed?

And that list has what to do about trust? That Cerberus is criminal? That's not in dispute. That Cerberus doesn't have an agenda of human-advancement?

Akuze and Thresher Maw research on Tombs can easily be modeled after that. Teltin, even without the rogue cell factor that you ignore, certainly was about strengthening human biotics. That doesn't disprove TIM's claims to pushing for human dominance either: morally abhorent on the rogue cells part, but not contradictory by the 'making an omlet' metaphor.

Kohaku wasn't killed out of spite, and it's bizaar you would argue such. Kohaku was killed because he made himself into an actual security threat to Cerberus (and Alliance standing) after his deal with the Shadow Broker. Until then, Cerberus was happy to let him be, and when he did, they killed him by injection, which was hardly an experiment at all.

Seriously, these guys are ****s. You can't justify those things as "humanity's best interest" because it is still conducting wrongful, criminal activity. I'm sure the ****s were convinced that what they were doing was in the best interests for the human race, they didn't just commit genocide. They performed twisted experiments on other human beings too. And they may have made some interesting discoveries too, but it's still wrong. It's stuff that simply has no moral grounding whatsoever.

Criminality is a matter of laws, not greater interests. The two are not mutually incompatible.

All you have is that Cerberus has done small-scope but nasty things. Which really isn't in any way an argument disproving why they did such things.

(And no, Cerberus didn't commit genocide by any meaningful stretch of the word.)

If you want to experiment with Tresher Maw venom, test in legally in a science lab. If it's not legal, it's not legal (and you can see now why the rule was in place).

Medigel is illegal: so what? Legality is a separate matter after results, and irrelevant to motivation.

Law alone is meaningless. Anyone can dictate, and dictate to their own advantage as the Council does. Law is only meaningful when directed with ends, and compromised with results.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dominating the poor, in and of itself, has meager results. Dominating the poor and making them richer, on the other hand, makes you great.

Make some richer and use the rest as cheap labor.

That works for awhile, but doesn't last permanently. The Noveau Rich soon see competition with the established oligarchy, and rally the lower classes as 'men of the people' to forment a rebellion (which they intend to establish themselves at the top of). And that rebellion leads to the temporary alliances you suggest, which brings the next rebellion...

In order to counter it, you generally need to bring new groups in and richer to counter the older-news, which eventually equates to making everyone rich as you expand the support base.

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

my issue with renegade players is that they thing its their way or highway. its like they have to justify their ruthless choices by trying to prove that they are the only possible choices.

How is keeping the Base a "ruthless" choice? Blowing stuff up is a ruthless choice. Being a dick (this time to TIM) is a ruthless choice. But keeping the Base should have been a paragon choice. Just like in the Heretics Station situation.

In any case, this discussion is not about the flaws of the para/rene system, this is about the right choice with the C-Base situation. And keeping the Base is the smart choice not because it's renegade, but because it's smart.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In order to counter it, you generally need to bring new groups in and richer to counter the older-news, which eventually equates to making everyone rich as you expand the support base.

You import "citizens" whose right to protest against you is dubious at best. Cheaper. You also do your best to support governments and promote policies abroad which keep the working class in other nations poor enough to be profitable so they can make affordable goods for you. Or I should say, for the 'poor' in your nation of rich people.

Things might switch around, but someone in another country will be working for pennies a day so that his much richer counterpart in your own can be kept content.

Cheaper in coin, but not in quality of life for them. Establishing rights has a way of entrenching rights, and even if you only intended to pay lip service, you may find yourself putting great value on them if only to avoid infuriating the populace... which was the intent from the start of it. And over time, they solidify into having a value all of their own.

Mind you, I think this is a great thing overall, despite my cynical tone. 


'Pennies a day' isn't an inherency, and especially not in a plausibly resource-rich economy such as one that can be maintained by resource extraction of space. When there's enough for everyone to do something, you can have great growth with everyone winning, even as some people win far more.

[Labrev]

I guess my argument is out of place then.

If the issue is trust,
then I guess it just depends on whether or not you agree with them. If you
help them, I'd be inclined to think that they won't stab you in the back. If you have not, you'll probably have a falling out with them.

My question, then, becomes how can you support a man and organization you really do not know about. The extent of your partnership with Cerberus is your own cell, the Lazarus Cell. You know literally nothing else about Cerberus' other operations. As for TIM, you do not know anything about him either. Not his past, not much of his present, and above all you can not really guage his motives other than "advancement of the human race" (which in itself is a very ambiguous idea).

I mean, even if you're pro-Cerberus in every way, the extent at which you are kept in the dark should still give you pause as to whether or not they can be trusted.

[jeweledleah]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

my issue with renegade players is that they thing its their way or highway. its like they have to justify their ruthless choices by trying to prove that they are the only possible choices.

How is keeping the Base a "ruthless" choice? Blowing stuff up is a ruthless choice. Being a dick (this time to TIM) is a ruthless choice. But keeping the Base should have been a paragon choice. Just like in the Heretics Station situation.

In any case, this discussion is not about the flaws of the para/rene system, this is about the right choice with the C-Base situation. And keeping the Base is the smart choice not because it's renegade, but because it's smart.

that's just your opinion man.  more then half my Shepards concider keeping the base in TIM's hands a stupid choice.  they would keep it if it was possible to do without handing it over to TIM, but the risk to most of them is not worth the benefit, not at all.

and keeping the base is the ruthless choice because you are giving technology to experiment on sentient beings to a man's who's been known to experiment on sentient beings with or without advanced technology.  if you honestly think that he will not use life subjects and treat people working on it as expendable tools then you are blinding yourself.  and accepting it as a ok - is ruthless.  just as leaving David in hands of Archer is ruthless.

think about it this way - nirali batia.  a ruthless choice is to keep the body for study, the humane choice is to let her husband have her for bural.  now, if you ask the questions, you find out that she's not the only body they have, far from it.  so you are not jeopardizing the research by taking away just one subject.  granted - she's one of the more interesting ones, but she's not crucial to the reseach.  and as much as you'd like to believe that?  neither is the collector base crucial to defeat of the reapers.  potencialy helpful at possibly high cost.  but not 100% neccesary.

as for being a dick to TIM? its a personal choice. I'll need to double check if you can blow him of in a more polite manner, but in a course of the game he pissed me off so much, that disconnecting on him felt more satisfying then hanging up in a council in ME1 - and hanging up on a council was my favorite part of playing a renegade shepard through ME1.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 07 mars 2011 - 08:49 .

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

my issue with renegade players is that they thing its their way or highway. its like they have to justify their ruthless choices by trying to prove that they are the only possible choices.

How is keeping the Base a "ruthless" choice? Blowing stuff up is a ruthless choice. Being a dick (this time to TIM) is a ruthless choice. But keeping the Base should have been a paragon choice. Just like in the Heretics Station situation.

In any case, this discussion is not about the flaws of the para/rene system, this is about the right choice with the C-Base situation. And keeping the Base is the smart choice not because it's renegade, but because it's smart.

Of course it's smart - IF YOU PUT THE TECHNOLOGY IN ACCOUNTABLE HANDS.  TiM holds himself accountable to no-one.  You can't trust him to "do the right thing".  It would be like giving Hitler nuclear bomb technology in the early 1930's.  And yes, Hitler had as about much power in that time period (manpower and political) that TiM has in Mass Effect.

Think about it.  Why does TiM rebuild you?  To save humanity?  That's what he says.  But what is the real reason?  The real reason is to get access to the Collector Base.  He has a fleet ready on standby to grab its secrects once you are successful.  He sacrifices thousands of lives (Horizon) to do it.  He lies to you repeatedly to get you to do what he wants.  Miranda said it herself - he is accountable to nobody and nobody knows much about him.  For all Shepard knows, he could use the Collector technology to save his own sorry ass and leave the rest of us high and dry.  There Is No Way to Know.  Shepard stays true to his mission - to Stop the Collectors.

Now the choice some are presenting that it's "save the collector base or doom humanity" is a false choice.  There is other Reaper technology available for study - there's an entire Citadel that hasn't been scrutinized for crying out loud! - it's just not under the direct control of TiM.  So Shepard can "realisticly" weigh these factors - give TiM - a ruthless liar I hardly know anything about - an edge over everyone else in Reaper tech - or don't and use the resources I've already been relying on that I can trust to defeat the Reapers.  I've already gotten word that the scientist I let study the keepers has scientific proof that backs up my claims.  He's not being listened to, but now I can throw my celebrity and influence into the mix and the Council, Alliance and whomever can crack open the Citadel and start looking for clues.

[Lunatic LK47]

Almostfaceman wrote...
  I've already gotten word that the scientist I let study the keepers has scientific proof that backs up my claims.  He's not being listened to, but now I can throw my celebrity and influence into the mix and the Council, Alliance and whomever can crack open the Citadel and start looking for clues.

This will definnitely depend on the Council's attitude in terms of them not going, "Ah yes, Keepers."

[Almostfaceman]

think about it this way - nirali batia.  a ruthless choice is to keep the body for study, the humane choice is to let her husband have her for bural.  now, if you ask the questions, you find out that she's not the only body they have, far from it.  so you are not jeopardizing the research by taking away just one subject.  granted - she's one of the more interesting ones, but she's not crucial to the reseach.  and as much as you'd like to believe that?  neither is the collector base crucial to defeat of the reapers.  potencialy helpful at possibly high cost.  but not 100% neccesary.

Not to nit-pick, buecause I agree with you in general, but there are actually Paragon choices on both sides of this issue.  I investigated it when in Mass Effect 2 you hear news casts about Alliance recruitment dropping.  It turns out that the main issue with Nirali's husband is that nobody in the Alliance is telling him what is going on.   If you talk to the admin you find out that they need her body to study to save lives in the future.  You can go back and Paragon convince Samesh (sp?) that she'll save even more lives with her death and in the long run continue what she was doing in her service while alive - protect humanity.  After thinking about it Samesh consents to the study of the body and in Mass Effect 2 - no news reports of an Alliance drop in recruiting is present.  This implies that recruiters are showing initiates the new technologies being developed for defending against the geth and it has a ripple effect of keeping humanity confident.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 07 mars 2011 - 09:11 .

[Almostfaceman]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
  I've already gotten word that the scientist I let study the keepers has scientific proof that backs up my claims.  He's not being listened to, but now I can throw my celebrity and influence into the mix and the Council, Alliance and whomever can crack open the Citadel and start looking for clues.

This will definnitely depend on the Council's attitude in terms of them not going, "Ah yes, Keepers."

And this is what Emily Wong is for - they don't listen I go to the press and public pressure is on my side.

[jeweledleah]

Almostfaceman wrote...


Not to nit-pick, buecause I agree with you in general, but there are actually Paragon choices on both sides of this issue.  I investigated it when in Mass Effect 2 you hear news casts about Alliance recruitment dropping.  It turns out that the main issue with Nirali's husband is that nobody in the Alliance is telling him what is going on.   If you talk to the admin you find out that they need her body to study to save lives in the future.  You can go back and Paragon convince Samesh (sp?) that she'll save even more lives with her death and in the long run continue what she was doing in her service while alive - protect humanity.  After thinking about it Samesh consents to the study of the body and in Mass Effect 2 - no news reports of an Alliance drop in recruiting is present.  This implies that recruiters are showing initiates the new technologies being developed for defending against the geth and it has a ripple effect of keeping humanity confident.

paragons can be ruthless too, when necessary - which is the whole point I was trying to make.  ME decisions are not black and white, right or wrong, true or false. notice that I didn't say that keeping the body for research was a renegade choice, only that it was a ruthless one.  in fact - my by the book paragade femshep convinces Samesh that keeping the body is for the best, using paragon responses.  she's also the same femshep that keeps the base.

[Almostfaceman]

jeweledleah wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...


Not to nit-pick, buecause I agree with you in general, but there are actually Paragon choices on both sides of this issue.  I investigated it when in Mass Effect 2 you hear news casts about Alliance recruitment dropping.  It turns out that the main issue with Nirali's husband is that nobody in the Alliance is telling him what is going on.   If you talk to the admin you find out that they need her body to study to save lives in the future.  You can go back and Paragon convince Samesh (sp?) that she'll save even more lives with her death and in the long run continue what she was doing in her service while alive - protect humanity.  After thinking about it Samesh consents to the study of the body and in Mass Effect 2 - no news reports of an Alliance drop in recruiting is present.  This implies that recruiters are showing initiates the new technologies being developed for defending against the geth and it has a ripple effect of keeping humanity confident.

paragons can be ruthless too, when necessary - which is the whole point I was trying to make.  ME decisions are not black and white, right or wrong, true or false. notice that I didn't say that keeping the body for research was a renegade choice, only that it was a ruthless one.  in fact - my by the book paragade femshep convinces Samesh that keeping the body is for the best, using paragon responses.  she's also the same femshep that keeps the base.

Well I'm not sure I'd call keeping the body "ruthless".  It's a dead body, after all.  At the most, it could be called insensitive to any religious practices that call for immediate burial.  Samesh will get his wife's body back or a memorial and she will still have died a publicly acknowledged hero.

Maybe we agree to disagree on that one.

Now performing tests on a live subject - that's ruthless.

[Pwener2313]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Excuse me, I didn't know of the filter.

The **** refers to an infamous Facist group from WWII

Hey look, Goldwyn's law. Go gigure....

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]States and nations have a way of building lower-level competencies when higher-level leadership starts to fail, and those lower-level competencies generally reform the higher ones.

One of the reasons the US military is one of the most professional and skilled militaries in the world right now, for example, is because of our (surprisingly not all-common) NCO core. And the NCO core in large part developed to mitigate a long series of wars with... mixed officer quality levels.

 
Good middle or lower management can cover for bad upper management, but not forever. Even if they end up abandoning the Council post and trying to use some sort of lower level committiee, there woud still have to be a chairman of that committee and regardless those races would be performing significantly worse while they sort it all out.

And don't underestimate the value of central leadership. How are you going to coordinate attacks, decide priorites, etc, if suddenly you only had your NCO's leading, no matter how competent?

Even so, none of that comes close to being worse than the Reapers, which is the real measure.

Even if it is happening simultaneously with the Reapers arrival, meaning that the Turian and Asari fleets are again in turmoil, and the STG's are effectively reporting to noone? Not to mention the Reapers having more than half their indoctrination work done for them.

The Collectors danger wasn't in their manpower, it was in their
seclusion behind the Omega 4 relay. Short of killing Shepard first thing
(which, for a number of reasons, can't and doesn't happen), Cerberus
can't claim or rely on a monopology of inaccessibility behind the Omega 4
relay.

Cerberus can't even count on the absolute loyalty and secrecy the collectors could either: even the Cerberus Cheerleader, an unapologetic Cerberus defender and advocate, had moral qualms. In a scenario of this sort, even one defection would be ruinous.

Why can't they? They now have the only IFF's, and only they even know what is there and its importance. They are in the same situation as the Collectors were in that regard. Arguably better because they don't have a derelect ship floating about with the key to the lock handily inside.

Why go after the homeworld of a large, non-hostile (economic) super-power of a race that was already disqualified for Reaperification in the first place, in hopes of trying to produce... one Reaper, when the galaxy is either gearing up to or has already killed hundreds of the things?

It's completely stupid from start to finish: why target the Asari, why target anyone and tip your hand off, why invest so much in building an individual Reaper when you could capitalize on the technology in so many more effective, less expensive, and less noticed ways?

The Reapers smoothie people to ascend the race, not because it's a necessity to produce or replicate their technology. Why would anyone go so far out of their way to pay more for less?

Umm... I am pretty sure that grinding people up into some sort of smoothie removes any traces of their personalities. Illium because it is there, relatively poorly defended and has a high population. And you wouldn't start with it. It is just a much better finisher than Earth is, unless you have a human DNA fetish.

Just because the Reapers spout rhetoric about ascending the race doesn't mean that the new reaper is any more 'ascended' than any given Goa'uld host. Telling the soon-to-be-deceased that their death will mean great things in the afterlife is as old as religion. Why fight back if there is a better life awaiting in heaven? or in this case, as some small fraction of a Reaper's spleen?

Which is still far, far better than the losses if we lose the Reaper War.

Even if we do assume stupid on a scale and of a type never seen or evidenced before.

You seem to be assuming he would definately wait until after, rather than convince himself that building reapers is the only way to stop them, or that the other major races have to be taken out of the picture for now so they don't interfere with his anti-reaper plans.

In the renegade ending, TIM's reaction to the base is 'this will ensure Human dominance against the Reapers and beyond." He doesn't say 'this will ensure our ability to defeat the Reapers, and Human dominance beyond." His priority is Human dominance, not stopping the Reapers first to ensure there are Humans left at all.

That is after the fact information, but there were enough hints in advance, namely the sheer amount of information that TIM conceils from the Council. He is already not just Cerberus is the only organization that can stop the Reapers, but hedges his bets to ensure others have less chance.

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

my issue with renegade players is that they thing its their way or highway. its like they have to justify their ruthless choices by trying to prove that they are the only possible choices.

How is keeping the Base a "ruthless" choice? Blowing stuff up is a ruthless choice. Being a dick (this time to TIM) is a ruthless choice. But keeping the Base should have been a paragon choice. Just like in the Heretics Station situation.

In any case, this discussion is not about the flaws of the para/rene system, this is about the right choice with the C-Base situation. And keeping the Base is the smart choice not because it's renegade, but because it's smart.

that's just your opinion man.

Thank you, I know. Every and each post here is someone's opinion.

jeweledleah wrote...

more then half my Shepards concider keeping the base in TIM's hands a stupid choice.  they would keep it if it was possible to do without handing it over to TIM, but the risk to most of them is not worth the benefit, not at all.

I'd say the risk (of your nightmares about TIM, his ineptness and ruthlessness and whatever coming true) is proportionate to the potential value of the Base. If it's just a dead wait piece of junk, there is no risk. And if there is the potential risk, there is too much of potential benefit to pass up, while trying to save the galaxy. You have to take those chances with TIM, simply because the situation can't get any worse than it already is: total extinction. TIM screws up? No big deal, since the Galaxy has been doomed anyway.

jeweledleah wrote...

and keeping the base is the ruthless choice because you are giving technology to experiment on sentient beings to a man's who's been known to experiment on sentient beings with or without advanced technology.  if you honestly think that he will not use life subjects and treat people working on it as expendable tools then you are blinding yourself.  and accepting it as a ok - is ruthless.  just as leaving David in hands of Archer is ruthless.

I honestly think that he'll do whatever it takes with the Base. However, if I had denied him the Base, I'm sure, he would have found something else to test on live subjects, only to a lesser avail.

See, you can't prevent Cerberus from doing its stuff. All you can do is make it as futile and pointless as possible. Just like you can make those hundreds of thousands of poor colonists die for nothing.

jeweledleah wrote...

think about it this way - nirali batia.  a ruthless choice is to keep the body for study, the humane choice is to let her husband have her for bural.

That's because denying a mourning husband his wife's body is kinda being a dick, nothing more.

jeweledleah wrote...

  now, if you ask the questions, you find out that she's not the only body they have, far from it.  so you are not jeopardizing the research by taking away just one subject.  granted - she's one of the more interesting ones, but she's not crucial to the reseach.  and as much as you'd like to believe that?  neither is the collector base crucial to defeat of the reapers.  potencialy helpful at possibly high cost.  but not 100% neccesary.

You don't know what's crucial and what's not until you study it. And I hear that giving Bathia's body to her husband actually HAS negative consequences: the research ends up with nothing, and the Alliance enrollment rates drop. Kinda seems Bathia's body was crucial.

jeweledleah wrote...

as for being a dick to TIM? its a personal choice. I'll need to double check if you can blow him of in a more polite manner, but in a course of the game he pissed me off so much, that disconnecting on him felt more satisfying then hanging up in a council in ME1 - and hanging up on a council was my favorite part of playing a renegade shepard through ME1.

Generally, being a dick is renegade. For example, criticizing Liara for giving you to Cerberus is renegade, while telling her she did the right thing is paragon.

With TIM it flip-flops between convos, but blowing the Base up is so often motivated by "Blow it out your ass, TIM, lol! [finger] !!!", that it definitely deserves a renegade choice.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2011 - 09:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

jollyorigins wrote...

Collector base has always gone KABOOM for me, if I could hand it to someone like the council for the technology perhaps I would have considered, but giving it to cerberus, after seeing things like Overlord and other experiments they do on people just in the name of "advancing the human race" goes too extreme, that and TIM is a very shifty guy who shouldn't be trusted that much, even though I told him to "fall in line" to keep on his good side at least.

Once more:

Kabooming the Base can't stop Cerberus. They will continue doing their stuff. They'll find some other ways to "invest" human lives into "advancing the Human race", only a lot less fruitful as far as the preparation to face the Reapers goes.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 mars 2011 - 10:35 .

[jeweledleah]

Zulu - destroying collectors will not stop the reapers from coming, but it sure slows them down and sometimes time is really all you need. its the same with Cerberus. why should I make it easier on them?

also - you are the one calling renegade choices dickish, not me. another something I thought I'd point out, which kinda reinforces my opinion on just why you are so passionate about justifying your choices. being a dick for the sake of being a dick is no bueno, so you must make it look like a necessity in your mind and minds of other. but its not. you can win while being nice and you can win while being not so nice. you just end up with different consequences once you win.

[Wulfram]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Once more:

Kabooming the Base can't stop Cerberus. They will continue doing their stuff. They'll find some other ways to "invest" human lives into "advancing the Human race", only a lot less fruitful as far as the preparation to face the Reapers goes.

The other ways are unlikely to rely quite so directly on gooifying people, though.  Plus, if they get usable tech, they'll likely use it to expand their operations.

[Zulu_DFA]

jeweledleah wrote...

Zulu - destroying collectors will not stop the reapers from coming, but it sure slows them down and sometimes time is really all you need.

How are you so sure of that. Harby even trolls you: "Lol, you've changed nothing, puny!"

jeweledleah wrote...

its the same with Cerberus. why should I make it easier on them?

Because they are good guys?

jeweledleah wrote...

also - you are the one calling renegade choices dickish, not me.

Can't deny the truth, ma'am. Doing the right thing often means beaing a dick to someone. And it's not my fault there are so few choices in ME2 like the one with the C-Base - allowing you to do the right thing and be a dick to noone.

jeweledleah wrote...

another something I thought I'd point out, which kinda reinforces my opinion on just why you are so passionate about justifying your choices.

I have no problem with being a dick to people, if it's just a collateral damage of doing the right thing. I think they have to suck it up. It's the universal principle of justice, BTW.

jeweledleah wrote...

being a dick for the sake of being a dick is no bueno, so you must make it look like a necessity in your mind and minds of other.

Tell that to people who gleefully brag how they've "told TIM where to shove it".

jeweledleah wrote...

but its not. you can win while being nice and you can win while being not so nice. you just end up with different consequences once you win.

Define "nice".

[Pwener2313]

@Zulu: "Because they are good guys?"

Good luck with that approach. I've been pushing on it for over a year with little to no results. apperantly saving the human race from certain extinction does not earn you any points or justifies sacrificing a few colonies.