803 réponses à ce sujet

[Pwener2313]

Sajuro wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

Nuav wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

It's called the power of friendship, deal with it.

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic?

We are so dead.....

Everybody relax, Rainbow Dash has got it covered.

http://t3.gstatic.co...9Bh5x56dCfBS9ew

The first pony Spectre.
d'awww

We are so dead ****ed.

[Sajuro]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

Nuav wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

It's called the power of friendship, deal with it.

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic?

We are so dead.....

Everybody relax, Rainbow Dash has got it covered.

http://t3.gstatic.co...9Bh5x56dCfBS9ew

The first pony Spectre.
d'awww

The Reapers are so dead ****ed.

fixed for you, oh and you're welcomed.

[Gentleman Moogle]

...

You all forgot to take your meds today, didn't you.

[Pwener2313]

Normally, Im incredibly optimistic about winning the war, but seeing this pic always puts things in perspective for me.



I lost count at 600....

[Gentleman Moogle]

Meh, that just means when we DO win, it'll be that much more epic.

[Pwener2313]

Man, I sure hope so. If I have spent 4 years on this series only for my one and only canon Shepard (I only have one) to die again permanently and the Reapers to win, I am gonna be so pissed.

[Chewin]

^New game?

Modifié par Chewin3, 08 mars 2011 - 06:22 .

[Pwener2313]

DAMMIT!

[Rekkampum]

Critical Mission Failure.

This thread is going to pot now.

[Pwener2313]

I hope so, this thread has passed it's expiration date.

Just to close up if it really ends here....

 
Keeping the base, in simpler ways, is trump card. That Cerberus can produce weaponry or any kind of technology from it is 30% at best. The other 70% is the whole place backfiring horribly. But compared to the previous races that have been "reaped" before us, a 30% is a God send. All others before us didn't even have a chance to find out what was happening until their galaxy was in a state of mass chaos.

Keeping the base is actually a sound idea. What's the worse that could happen? Husks? Indoctrination of Cerberus personnel that people hate? Destruction? Isn't all that stuff still coming anyway....

Yes, it is. TIM helps the galaxy destroy the Reapers and then tries to use the base to take over the galaxy. At least we would have a galaxy to defend against an incredibly lesser foe compared to the Reapers. It's not like TIM alone with the base is more dangerous then the Reapers. Otherwise he would use the base to singlehandedly take out the Reaper threat.

Sacrifice a potential resource and throw the fate of the galaxy to further chance, or keep it and have a potential weapon to stop the Reapers with. Either way, it is actually worth the risk. You would destroy the base because you don't trust TIM/Cerberus? That is a very naive thing to do. If any of the previous races that were anihilated by the Reapers were here now, they would tell you to keep it. If Vigil were still active, he would tell you it's worth it. All of them would.

You have no idea what's coming and still would potentially doom the galaxy to extinction, ensuring that the Reapers continue their horrible cycle of destruction, dooming incalculable souls to death, and even worse, Reaperfication, because you hate Cerberus? i am sorry, but wathever may come out of that base that could be bad, would never compare to what the Reapers have done for who knows how long.

Really, you prefer a nuke dropped on your home then a dictatorship? If you do, you need to revaluate yourself.

[Rekkampum]

I meant it as a figure of speech. But if it is eventually closed, oh well... Some one else will just start another one all over again for people to argue in. But this one will be special. Why? Because regardless of whether or not we keep the CB or not, we'll all realize that nothing can beat My Little Pony Shepard.

Modifié par Rekkampum, 08 mars 2011 - 06:47 .

[Arijharn]

jeweledleah wrote...

@ Arijharn



your refusal to step off your narrow chosen pass and accept the possibility that your opinion might not be the absolute only viable one is...sad.

I have considered your opinion, and my judgement on your opinion based on the reasoning you have supplied indicates to me that your opinion is... wrong,  erroneous and even bollocks, at least in this case. For all I know you could be a charming and intelligent person (and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are) but this decision to blow up the base for any reason is just... stupid. Fear drives this more than anything else.

I understand you not trusting TIM. Honestly I do. I think anyone who fully trusts TIM is probably just asking to get burned yourself. I wouldn't fully trust him with my chocolate snacks for example.

However, to hand over the base to him doesn't depend on complete trust, only the logic based on: The Reapers are a threat to him as well (and his goals) can be used to decide on whether  or not passing it to Cerberus is worthwhile due to the immense dangers represented by the Reapers.

It's true though; we do not know for sure whether the Collector Base is essential or not to defeating the Reapers, and it's precisely because we do not know if it's essential makes the value of the Collector Base rise. I would keep the Collector Base and hand it to the Batarian's if it meant that someone was studying it in preparation for when the Reapers arrive.

You play the role of a Commander (a mid senior level officer), you play the role of a Spectre. You're job is to win. Your job isn't to look pretty for recruitment posters (remember -- apparently you don't focus test right), your job isn't to weigh in Public Relations. Let history dictate whether your actions were the right one or not, and if you really feel horrible for your decisions, seek absolution at another date.

Cerberus is definitely a criminal organisation, I will never refute this. But we are lagging behind the Reapers. We are already on the technological pathway set by the Reapers because we found those Prothean data caches on mars some time ago, we depend on the Mass Relays to move around our galaxy. All of this technology that we thought was the Protheans was actually the Reapers all along, and because of that, any defense we can muster is something that we must believe that the Reapers have somehow 'planned for.' This is what makes the Collector Base inticing, because it represents technology above and beyond current technological 'limits.' Hell, even if we just took the massive particle beam (or whatever) weapon that the Collector Cruiser used on the Normandy SR-1 to destroy it, then the Collector Base has paid off, because that's technology we don't have atm. Having said that, maybe that weapon isn't enough to penetrate Reaper shields either, but honestly at that point I think it's besides the point, because you've done one more thing to help prevent the wholesale 'slaughter' of not just your species, but everyone elses as well. Why would you do this? Because you're a Spectre and because you're a Commander of the Systems Alliance, and because you chose as a career the responsibility to defend humanity (and later)... galactic stability. Something you explicitly can not fulfill, if you put the Collector Base into the 'too hard' basket, simply because you chose to not explore it because you didn't think it was necessary, not because you know that it wasn't necessary. You aren't a moron, you know these things are not the same thing at all.

As to 'human dominance' however, you're right... it might be something that you wouldn't want to see as an eventuality, but by deciding in this manner you have essentially said that Cerberus is a greater threat than the Reapers, and I'm sorry, but it's absolutely insane that you somehow made that leap in conclusion, because the evidence does not support that theory. If you're response is based on a 'could be bigger' down the line, then I would say that while I can see how you made that decision, I would also say that while Cerberus has done certainly dastardly deeds, the evidence still does not support it (as Cerberus seeks to 'undermine' if anything other nations, not utterly exterminate them -- dominance doesn't necessarily mean oppression, it could be something like economy or even relative 'super-power' dominance). If your decision was based on the belief that Cerberus would somehow 'make their own Reaper' then I would say that was just a stupid decision to make; if for no other reason than the fact that Cerberus, with apparently their 150 employee's, would not have the resources to mass abduct everyone on Earth.

If your decision then was entirely based on the fact that Cerberus has done unethical things, then while I applaud your morale compass, I would also say that at the moment you don't really have any ally's (only probable allies -- and that includes Liara too) so deciding to spit in the face of Cerberus doesn't seem very prudent, wise or even smart. At the very least (providing we have a sense of freedom in regards to the choices given to us eventually in the game), there is nothing to automatically suggest that you couldn't take technological schematics developed by Cerberus and surreptiously leak that info to the Turian's, Salarian's, Asari or hell the Hanar and Drell.

Furthermore; I see nothing that precludes the fact you can have a unified galaxy and the Collector Base, because you can have a rather mutable gaming experience regardless.

The Collector Base represents the best hope for the galaxy. It isn't a guarantee, but currently the only guarantee we're facing is our complete destruction if we engage the Reapers as we are.

[Pwener2313]

Holy crap! Im not readin that.

[Moiaussi]

Pwener2313 wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

Which threat do you perceive as more dire, the giant eldritch abomination before you, or the crazy survivalist in all likelihood hiding a dagger behind his back behind you?

This is the crap that Im talking about. Really? TIM is a bigger threat then the Reapers? Really? You know what, Im not gonna argue with you. Read my *whole* post, and *then* revaluate yourself.

TIM more dangerous then the Reapers? wtf

Just because one is a greater threat doesn't mean it is wise to ignore or empower the other.

[Pwener2313]

Yeah' let's worry about TIM when the Reapers are coming. One crumbling organization ruled by a megalomaniac pragmatist poses such a big threat to the continuation of life in the galaxy.

Get your priorities straight and get your head in the program.

[Moiaussi]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Unlike Miranda's loyalty powered latex suit, friendship isn't bulletproof. Things are gonna get from bad to worse in ME3. Im not taking any chances with this. I'll do wathever it takes and sacrifice anything to stop the Reapers. Im guessing a lot of people are gonna lose this war. Paragon choices and being friendly only gets you so far.

Your analogy fails. Friendship isn't bulletproof, but a friend who happens to be in the line of fire can take a bullet for you. A friend watching your back can take out the shooter before he gets a shot off at you.

Sacrifice such advantages at your peril and Humanity's.

The Council may be bad in dismissing the Reaper threat, but TIM is dismissing the entire Turian and Asari navies, not to mention their production capacity, and dismissing that of the Alliance as well. I don't care how good he thinks Cerberus is or what kind of advantage he thinks (or you think) that base provides. It isn't going to be equivalent, and the fact that you act like it is speaks to your sense of perspective.

TIM played hardball to get Shep to work with him, doing his best to ensure that Shepard had nowhere else to turn. I think it is time for Shepard to play hardball back. Cerberus might be needed but it is nonsensical that Cerberus alone is sufficient. It is like the Quarians relying on their shutdown code, then whining for 300 years about the Geth, except if we lose to the Reapers, the 'Migrant fleet' option is a lot less likely to work.

If TIM (or you) have been relying on that base as salvation, then it should have been something that Shepard 'needed to know.'

[Moiaussi]

Sajuro wrote...

The first pony Spectre.
d'awww

The Reapers are so dead ****ed.

fixed for you, oh and you're welcomed.

Unfortnately, Dash was grief stricken after Shepard's death at the start of ME2, he missed a jump and had to be put down. His remains have been used to create the adherant used to affix Alliance recruitment posters, so when you see a recruitment poster, salute, soldier, and think of Dash.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 08 mars 2011 - 07:15 .

[Moiaussi]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Yeah' let's worry about TIM when the Reapers are coming. One crumbling organization ruled by a megalomaniac pragmatist poses such a big threat to the continuation of life in the galaxy.

Get your priorities straight and get your head in the program.

More like "lets clone Stalin and put him in charge, with a big budget and all the best tech we can develop or reverse engineer'

If it is a 'crumbling organization', why does saving the base matter? You seem to be arguing that we should save the base and hand it to an organization incapable of doing anything useful with it.

That is your arguement for saving the base? Really? Cerberus is to useless to be a threat so its ok to give this to them?

[jeweledleah]

@ Arijharn your reasoning is sound...except its also too absolute and narrow. and you are missing one very crucial point. actually, no you're not missing it, you are dismissing it as inconsequential even though..its pretty important. keeping the base is a good choice. keepign the base in hands of TIM? not so much. as a ruthless I don't care how I win as long as I win Shepard - keeping collector base is great. as a shepard who is narrowly focused on the main goal and everything else can wait - its a good decision. As a Shepard who doesn't want to become that which he or she fights, as a shepard who values people, all people, not just humans, a shepard who is a sole survivor of Akuze, shepard who spend a bulk of the game, 2 games cleaning up after Cerberus's mistakes, being stonewalled by former allies because of cerberus and being stonewalled by TIM himself, manipulated and set up? the risk of leaving the base to this guy? too high, and not worse the potential benefits.

collector base is not our only chance, its not even our best chance. its merely one of the options.

you see if Mass Effect was the game that actually offered you an option that was clearly a bad decision? maybe then reasoning would be different. but we're never offered losing options. we are only offered variety of methods to win. it is impossible to lose in mass effect. its a role playing game, where your varying choices are done more to develop the character and his/her relationships with various npc's then to win or lose. so there are no ultimately good decisions or ultimately bad decisions, not when it comes to major plot progression...like killing/saving the rachni killing/rewriting geth or saving/blowing up collector base. it takes some serious effort to get the ending where shepard dies and its still a win. its not a transferable win, but its a win, and if you don't fee like replaying - you get to play a default shepard in ME3.

so whatever reasons you have for making your choices? they are all valid, depending on the kind of shepard you play. you are only setting up a different road to the end goal.

for proof, read the interview with christina norman - the link is in general forums.

P.S.  no one but Tim knows exactly how many employees Cerberus has.  your estimating and your estimates don't have enough information behind them to be correct. Cerberus is cell based and we learn pretty early on that not only it has branches, but Cell leaders never meet other cell leaders and only couple of cell leaders even met TIM in person, Miranda being one of them.  but they sure do have a lot of fingers in a lot of pies.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 mars 2011 - 07:25 .

[Labrev]

Pwener2313 wrote...

@Zulu: "Because they are good guys?"

Good luck with that approach. I've been pushing on it for over a year with little to no results. apperantly saving the human race from certain extinction does not earn you any points or justifies sacrificing a few colonies.

See, that's a REALLY tough sell for me. T.I.M. spent billions upon billions of credits to bring you back to life. And for what, just because he's worried about the fate of humans and the galaxy?

I mean, it's not a completely crazy idea. If you believe the Reaper threat and know what Shepard can do, while you have the money to bring him back to fight them, there's not really anything better you could be doing than attempting to save the galaxy I guess.

But does T.I.M. really strike you as that wealthy do-gooder? Even players who support Cerberus can see clear as day that the group stands to profit from the Shepard's cooperation with them in a very significant way. The base, numerous salvaged items (not the least of which being an intact geth), cleaning up their messes a few times (overlord, sensitivie data at Eclipse base), his popularity as an "endorsement" for the group.

A hypothesis, but I find it much more plausible than the notion that he's really concerned about extinction.

For the record, I'm actually convinced that T.I.M. had his eyes on the Collector base from the very start, and the mission to and from Omega-4 was all about Cerberus getting their hands on the Collector technology. Of course, whole the notion of "just trying to protect the galaxy" still supports saving it, and T.I.M. is very upfront about wanting the base. But again, at what point does it begin to get suspicious?



My question is, how can you trust both a man and an organization you know so little about? Fundamentally, that's about as naive as it gets.

You don't even know your boss's name, nevermind his past or much anything important about his present. You do not know his opinions of the galaxy at large. Of aliens. Of diplomacy. Anything that can give you insight to guage his motives, past what merely meets the eye.

And his organization is divided into cells that are completely isolated of each other. Let me reiterate, the extent of his organization that you know about is the Lazarus Cell. If you did some investigating back in ME1, then you saw some pretty twisted experiments and failed projects that they had conducted in the past. But other than Lazarus, you are pretty much completely in the dark about who you're working for.

They may have given you a nice comfy seat to sit back and command your own team in, but it's inherently unwise to surrender your trust to them just for that.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 08 mars 2011 - 07:26 .

[Labrev]

Pwener2313 wrote...

I hope so, this thread has passed it's expiration date.

Just to close up if it really ends here....

 
Keeping the base, in simpler ways, is trump card. That Cerberus can produce weaponry or any kind of technology from it is 30% at best. The other 70% is the whole place backfiring horribly. But compared to the previous races that have been "reaped" before us, a 30% is a God send. All others before us didn't even have a chance to find out what was happening until their galaxy was in a state of mass chaos.

Keeping the base is actually a sound idea. What's the worse that could happen? Husks? Indoctrination of Cerberus personnel that people hate? Destruction? Isn't all that stuff still coming anyway....

Yes, it is. TIM helps the galaxy destroy the Reapers and then tries to use the base to take over the galaxy. At least we would have a galaxy to defend against an incredibly lesser foe compared to the Reapers. It's not like TIM alone with the base is more dangerous then the Reapers. Otherwise he would use the base to singlehandedly take out the Reaper threat.

Sacrifice a potential resource and throw the fate of the galaxy to further chance, or keep it and have a potential weapon to stop the Reapers with. Either way, it is actually worth the risk. You would destroy the base because you don't trust TIM/Cerberus? That is a very naive thing to do. If any of the previous races that were anihilated by the Reapers were here now, they would tell you to keep it. If Vigil were still active, he would tell you it's worth it. All of them would.

You have no idea what's coming and still would potentially doom the galaxy to extinction, ensuring that the Reapers continue their horrible cycle of destruction, dooming incalculable souls to death, and even worse, Reaperfication, because you hate Cerberus? i am sorry, but wathever may come out of that base that could be bad, would never compare to what the Reapers have done for who knows how long.

Really, you prefer a nuke dropped on your home then a dictatorship? If you do, you need to revaluate yourself.

Executor Pallin: "if the cure is worse than the disease, then what's the point?"

So frankly, yes. I much rather get nuked than live under a dictator. Dying on your feet >>>>>>> living on your knees. Freedom is what I'm fighting for, not life. Especially not life under facists. Might as well just join the Reapers like good ole Saren.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on that. Which is OK. But nobody has to re-evaluate themself for thinking that way. I'd venture to guess that it's actually you that's in the minority on this one.


Besides which, so much of that post is unfounded and speculative. Cerberus may not even be a lesser foe than the Reapers after they get the base. "What's the worst that can happen?" Maybe it's worse than the worst you can possibly imagine. Vigil would tell you to keep it? LOL, right.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 08 mars 2011 - 07:45 .

[Moiaussi]

Pwener just posted a couple min ago that he considers Cerberus too weak to be a credible threat, so it is more like dieing on your knees (cerberus) or rather than being on your feet fighting back, since you have stopped trying to prop up a weak wannabe dictator by wasting your efforts on something that two cruisers should have been able to handle easily, and gotten back to fighting the Reapers for real.

[J. Finley]

Executor Pallin: "if the cure is worse than the disease, then what's the point?"

So frankly, yes. I much rather get nuked than live under a dictator. Dying on your feet >>>>>>> living on your knees. Freedom is what I'm fighting for, not life. Especially not life under facists. Might as well just join the Reapers like good ole Saren.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on that. Which is OK. But nobody has to re-evaluate themself for thinking that way. I'd venture to guess that it's actually you that's in the minority on this one.


Besides which, so much of that post is unfounded and speculative. Cerberus may not even be a lesser foe than the Reapers after they get the base. "What's the worst that can happen?" Maybe it's worse than the worst you can possibly imagine. Vigil would tell you to keep it? LOL, right.

[Ieldra]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Executor Pallin: "if the cure is worse than the disease, then what's the point?"

So frankly, yes. I much rather get nuked than live under a dictator. Dying on your feet >>>>>>> living on your knees. Freedom is what I'm fighting for, not life. Especially not life under facists. Might as well just join the Reapers like good ole Saren.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on that. Which is OK. But nobody has to re-evaluate themself for thinking that way. I'd venture to guess that it's actually you that's in the minority on this one.

Besides which, so much of that post is unfounded and speculative. Cerberus may not even be a lesser foe than the Reapers after they get the base. "What's the worst that can happen?" Maybe it's worse than the worst you can possibly imagine. Vigil would tell you to keep it? LOL, right.

So yeah, *you* might rather get nuked. But you're not making that decision for yourself, but for all intelligent species in the galaxy. As history has shown, dictatorships are temporary, but extinction is pretty much permanent. You're sacrificing your species - and the rest of them - for the sake of a principle.

As for the question about what's the lesser evil: we *know* the Reapers will kill all intelligent species in the known galaxy or transform them into something like the Collectors. That's about as close as you can plausibly get to the ultimate threat. We do *not* know what Cerberus will become, but everything suggests that they won't be nearly on that level. I would ask instead: why do you argue a prospective Cerberus threat level beyond that of the Reapers, with that being (1) close to impossible in the first place and (2) having no evidence at all?

What does it take to bring home to people that extinction is the end of *everything*, that everything we have ever seen Cerberus do in the game, everything we read about, will pale into insignificance before what the Reapers will inflict? Who in their right mind would knowingly increase the risk of that just to lower the risk of some perfectly temporary lesser evil? 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 mars 2011 - 09:01 .

[jeweledleah]

Ieldra2 wrote...

What does it take to bring home to people that extinction is the end of *everything*, that everything we have ever seen Cerberus do in the game, everything we read about, will pale into insignificance before what the Reapers will inflict? Who in their right mind would knowingly increase the risk of that just to lower the risk of some perfectly temporary lesser evil? 

1.  conclusive proof of
a) collector base being 100% necessary to defeat of the reapers and without it we get 100% guaranteed extinction.
b)cerberus not making things worse then they already are

2. conclusive proof that Mass Effect contains or will contain choices that can single handedly lose you the game (and by that I don't mean culmination of bad choices and deliberate set up like the bad ending to SM, I'm talking about - a single wrong choice = game over).

none of the above can currently be proven.  all we have is assumptions, suppositions, speculations and outright ignorance of established game parameters.  As well as utterly ridiculous rivalry between "renegade" and "paragon"