803 réponses à ce sujet

[Jarlan23]

I destroy it every playthrough. It's an evil place. And if you keep it your handing it to a twisted man. If I were able to hand it over to the Citadel races or the Alliance then yeah I would save it. But Cerberus is the only option and I'm sure the illusive man would experiment on live subjects with it.

[Aedan_Cousland]

No, I expect the Turians to crush humanity should it ever be a threat to the balance of power. For each and every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Unless you mess with the turians in which case the reaction will be twice as strong. This whole "galaxy-domination"-idea Cerberus promotes would only end in a lot of blood-spilling and a crippled Alliance.

This.

I can't see a Renegade outcome lasting very long. The other species aren't going to sit quietly while ruled over by humans. A Human Empire would be short-lived, and would end violently. The end of that war would also probably leave humanity weaker than it was before Cerberus started pushing for human dominance.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 02 mars 2011 - 06:32 .

[Kekkis]

Becouse it does not provide progress. Competition provides progress. And Earth, colonies, corporations and common people have different ideas what´s best for them anyway.

[nevar00]

DarthVadoc wrote...

nevar00 wrote...
Enlighten me; the only reason the Normandy got through the Relay was because of the Reaper IFF.

I don't think there are many of those lying around.

If you save the base after your conversation with TIM you can see TIM sitting down looking at a hologram of the collector base with cerberus ships going towards it.

Oh right... I take back what I said about "Bioware would probably ignore it" and change it to "Bioware did ignore it".

[nevar00]

Rawke wrote...

Undertone wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

The more I think about it, the stupider
it is to keep the base. The Normandy is the only ship that can get over
there anyway! Although I expect Bioware will pretend that was never
the case...

No. Play the game again.

Rawke wrote...

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Anyway as the person above me said, renegades go with logic, paragons make blind blue decisions just cause it's paragon.

You have a funny definition of "logic"...considering that many of the renegade choices are tied to racism.

It's been a while since I went through Mass Effect 1 and 2 and randomly selected every Renegade option without thinking it through but I can't seem to think of many that are tied to racism.  Please enlighten to me to all those racist options.

Well, in ME2, in most of the important decisions and a lot of conversations when Cerberus is a topic the renegade answer/choice is usually in support of Cerberus and human dominance above all. That racist enough for you?

What's wrong with human dominance if it provides progress? Do you expect turians to look after human interests?

No, I expect the Turians to crush humanity should it ever be a threat to the balance of power. For each and every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Unless you mess with the turians in which case the reaction will be twice as strong. This whole "galaxy-domination"-idea Cerberus promotes would only end in a lot of blood-spilling and a crippled Alliance.

Exactly.  This "renegade options are logical options" idea is nonsense.  If humans just took everything over, how long to you honestly think that will last?  10 years maybe?  Before all the other species gang up on you, kick you in the balls, and genophage you if your lucky.  If unlucky, we end up like the Rachni.  

On the other hand we can prove our worth, earn everyone's respect, and be at least on the level of the other council races.

By the way is there a way to multiquote here?  I keep having to double post...

Modifié par nevar00, 02 mars 2011 - 06:37 .

[Kingthlayer]

Barquiel wrote...

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Anyway as the person above me said, renegades go with logic, paragons make blind blue decisions just cause it's paragon.

You have a funny definition of "logic"...considering that many of the renegade choices are tied to racism.

It's been a while since I went through Mass Effect 1 and 2 and randomly selected every Renegade option without thinking it through but I can't seem to think of many that are tied to racism.  Please enlighten to me to all those racist options.

ME1 starts...
"We can't trust him he's a turian"

This doesn't sound very logical to me, but emotional.

let the council die , the big stupid jellyfish, all turians are the same,...

Letting the council die is by no way a racist decision.  It boggles the mind how a paragon will bend over backwards to save a dozen factory workers and let the leader of one of the biggest merc groups get free but will save 3 people at the cost of thousands of lives.

Big stupid Jellyfish is by no way racist either, it's just a funny comment made.  There is no hate in it.

And yes humans are the only race in the whole galaxy that put all of one race into a category and say they're the same.  No, not one alien has ever said anything about humanity as a group.

And obviously so short after the first contact war of course humans are not going to fully trust a human, if it was a human on a turian ship the result would be the exact same the crew would not trust the human.  Hell I doubt they would let a human on the ship in the first place.

Not a single one of those options are racist in any way.

[Kingthlayer]

Redgoon23 wrote...

I destroy it every playthrough. It's an evil place. And if you keep it your handing it to a twisted man. If I were able to hand it over to the Citadel races or the Alliance then yeah I would save it. But Cerberus is the only option and I'm sure the illusive man would experiment on live subjects with it.

You would hand a base over to people who stabbed you in the back rather then give it to the man who saved your life?  If you gave the collector base to the council they would pretend it doesn't exist, they're doing nothing at all to save the galaxy.  TIM and Cerberus are, just because they're the only people who have their dirty laundry hanging out in the games doesn't meant they're the only people who can't wash clothes.

[nevar00]

I recall hearing that the Ascension had about 50,000 lives on it (as opposed to a couple hundred per Alliance ship), including a large portion of the galactic government that if fell, could lead to disaray for when the Reapers invade.  You know... pretty much how it was for the Protheans. 


Just throwing that out there. 

Modifié par nevar00, 02 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[XzorshTheConqueror]

I'm not so certain that when the Illusive Man speaks of "human dominance", he has a galactic empire or military conquest in mind. Truth be told, I think Cerberus would prefer operating like the Illuminati in Deus Ex; ruling from the shadows. Favoring/backing human politicians, human businessmen, and human crimelords so that humans have de facto control while working within the "system", so that there's an illusion that nothing has changed.

Mind you, I'm not trying to defend the Illusive Man's agenda, I just think too many people are reading into his one line on human dominance that could be mean different things. I don't agree with many of his methods, but I'm going to wait for Mass Effect 3 to get a more clear picture of the Illusive Man's agenda, and ultimately decide whether his vision is better or worse than the current regime.

For the record, I destroyed the base. As others have pointed out, every attempt at studying Reaper-tech has backfired horribly, and so I stand with that decision, irrespective of what I think of Cerberus.

[Undertone]

Yep, people think human dominance means bringing the Empire from SW. You know I am just going to pretend as if I didn't say anything. Pretty tired of giving the same arguments only to be ignored when all I get back is "TIM is evil, Cerberus is evil, humans are evil". As if the Council races themselves are not milking the situation at the expense of others actively looking out for their interest. This debate always ends up one way.

Modifié par Undertone, 02 mars 2011 - 06:59 .

[Kingthlayer]

nevar00 wrote...

I recall hearing that the Ascension had about 50,000 lives on it (as opposed to a couple hundred per Alliance ship), including a large portion of the galactic government that if fell, could lead to disaray for when the Reapers invade.  You know... pretty much how it was for the Protheans. 


Just throwing that out there. 

Not my  fault that the Asari put way to many people on one ship with only one gun.  If the Asari would put those 50,000 people onto 250 ships with a crew of 200 on each.  Then they wouldn't have fallen so easy to a bunch of geth ships.  I guess the Asari aren't exempt from dick waving even though they don't have one.

And I doubt it would lead to any disaray when the Reapers invade because the council races are doing nothing to prepare for the reapers, also the DA got blown up 2+ years before the Reapers even came, more then enough time to get everything back in order(kind of like it already is in ME2)

[nevar00]

Actually the "evil empire" crap already started if you let the Council die while playing through as a renegade... considering humans pretty much take over everything. Again, it's crazy to believe the other races are going to let things stay that way for any real amount of time.

[nevar00]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

I recall hearing that the Ascension had about 50,000 lives on it (as opposed to a couple hundred per Alliance ship), including a large portion of the galactic government that if fell, could lead to disaray for when the Reapers invade.  You know... pretty much how it was for the Protheans. 


Just throwing that out there. 

Not my  fault that the Asari put way to many people on one ship with only one gun.  If the Asari would put those 50,000 people onto 250 ships with a crew of 200 on each.  Then they wouldn't have fallen so easy to a bunch of geth ships.  I guess the Asari aren't exempt from dick waving even though they don't have one.

And I doubt it would lead to any disaray when the Reapers invade because the council races are doing nothing to prepare for the reapers, also the DA got blown up 2+ years before the Reapers even came, more then enough time to get everything back in order(kind of like it already is in ME2)

Indeed it does, but you don't know that at the time.  As useless as politicians may be, things go to hell without order.  Which is why the Reapers made that entire plan in the first place.

[Aedan_Cousland]

nevar00 wrote...

Actually the "evil empire" crap already started if you let the Council die while playing through as a renegade... considering humans pretty much take over everything. Again, it's crazy to believe the other races are going to let things stay that way for any real amount of time.

This.

Some playthroughs have an all human council. There is no way that is going to last long.

[XzorshTheConqueror]

Undertone wrote...

Yep, people think human dominance means bringing the Empire from SW. You know I am just going to pretend as if I didn't say anything. Pretty tired of giving the same arguments only to be ignored when all I get back is "TIM is evil, Cerberus is evil, humans are evil". As if the Council races themselves are not milking the situation at the expense of others actively looking out for their interest. This debate always ends up one way.

'

Doesn't help that the game itself is rather one-sided on this issue, or at least the squadmates (including Cerberus agents). I would have to say my biggest dissapointment with ME2 is the post-suicide mission reactions from the squadmates; how they all agree with you on destroying the base even if some of them encouraged you to keep the base during the mission. I would have liked it if the squad reaction was mixed, leaving you guessing as to whether you made the "right" decision until ME3. Regardless, I think that helps reinforce a overwhelming consensus in favor of destroying the base.

On the flip side of the coin, I've always felt that Bioware had intended TIM to be a more nuanced, anti-hero figure rather than a flat-out bad guy like Saren or the Reapers, but the way they handled the post-suicide mission convinced enough people that he's just as evil. I think this Evolution comic is an attempt at building his character so that he does come across as more nuanced to the ME community. I'll be interested to see how they handle him in ME3.

[Undertone]

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Yep, people think human dominance means bringing the Empire from SW. You know I am just going to pretend as if I didn't say anything. Pretty tired of giving the same arguments only to be ignored when all I get back is "TIM is evil, Cerberus is evil, humans are evil". As if the Council races themselves are not milking the situation at the expense of others actively looking out for their interest. This debate always ends up one way.

'

Doesn't help that the game itself is rather one-sided on this issue, or at least the squadmates (including Cerberus agents). I would have to say my biggest dissapointment with ME2 is the post-suicide mission reactions from the squadmates; how they all agree with you on destroying the base even if some of them encouraged you to keep the base during the mission. I would have liked it if the squad reaction was mixed, leaving you guessing as to whether you made the "right" decision until ME3. Regardless, I think that helps reinforce a overwhelming consensus in favor of destroying the base.

On the flip side of the coin, I've always felt that Bioware had intended TIM to be a more nuanced, anti-hero figure rather than a flat-out bad guy like Saren or the Reapers, but the way they handled the post-suicide mission convinced enough people that he's just as evil. I think this Evolution comic is an attempt at building his character so that he does come across as more nuanced to the ME community. I'll be interested to see how they handle him in ME3.

It's just Bioware yet again praising their favourite children the Paragons. It happens just about every choice - the Rachni turn out to be good, all the criminals they let go end up reformed or don't cause any detriment and so on and so on.

I would be totally find with this if I was playing KotoR and was dark-side. Not on Mass Effect.

[Undertone]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The last time it took an entire fleet to defeat a Reaper and that fleet was pulverized in the process. Sovereign alone defeated how many ships? More than a dozen at least? The 5th fleet was losing ships fast enough that they wanted to pull away and retreat, and that was up against just one Reaper.

What if we had to fight two Reapers at once? Three? Four? A dozen? Hundreds?

We can't afford a kill to death ratio like this. The only hope of survival is to even the odds. Even getting the numbers down so that one dreadnought can take on a Reaper still leaves us at a disadvantage.

Then there is indoctrination. We don't even know its full capabilities or what it actually is. Can it be blocked? Reversed? Detected? To answer those questions we have to study it and the Collector base provides the best opportunity. If the base was building a Reaper then there is a good chance the schematics and/or materials for an indoctrination device are present. We need to find it and study it now while the Reapers aren't breathing down our necks. Otherwise it might be too late.

Not to mention it's also your evidence that the Reapers exist.

[Jarlan23]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Redgoon23 wrote...

I destroy it every playthrough. It's an evil place. And if you keep it your handing it to a twisted man. If I were able to hand it over to the Citadel races or the Alliance then yeah I would save it. But Cerberus is the only option and I'm sure the illusive man would experiment on live subjects with it.

You would hand a base over to people who stabbed you in the back rather then give it to the man who saved your life?  If you gave the collector base to the council they would pretend it doesn't exist, they're doing nothing at all to save the galaxy.  TIM and Cerberus are, just because they're the only people who have their dirty laundry hanging out in the games doesn't meant they're the only people who can't wash clothes.

No way the council would act like it didn't exist if you handed over a ship the size of the collecter base. The Citadel races would use it to better all of the races. Humans, Turians, Asari, and Salarians etc. Cerberus would use it to dominate the other races.

Yeah the TIM funded bringing Shepard back to life, but would he of done it for Turian? If a Turian gave the galaxy the best chance for survival would TIM spend all those credits to bring him back to life?

[Undertone]

Redgoon23 wrote...

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Redgoon23 wrote...

I destroy it every playthrough. It's an evil place. And if you keep it your handing it to a twisted man. If I were able to hand it over to the Citadel races or the Alliance then yeah I would save it. But Cerberus is the only option and I'm sure the illusive man would experiment on live subjects with it.

You would hand a base over to people who stabbed you in the back rather then give it to the man who saved your life?  If you gave the collector base to the council they would pretend it doesn't exist, they're doing nothing at all to save the galaxy.  TIM and Cerberus are, just because they're the only people who have their dirty laundry hanging out in the games doesn't meant they're the only people who can't wash clothes.

No way the council would act like it didn't exist if you handed over a ship the size of the collecter base. The Citadel races would use it to better all of the races. Humans, Turians, Asari, and Salarians etc. Cerberus would use it to dominate the other races.

Yeah the TIM funded bringing Shepard back to life, but would he of done it for Turian? If a Turian gave the galaxy the best chance for survival would TIM spend all those credits to bring him back to life?

Phahah you are funny dude. Sovereign was bloody huge. It's very simple process to find the age of it and realize it predates the Geth by kajilion years. Shall I do the famous airquotes?

And if you think the Council race and the system placed was not exploiting the lesser races you are a tool.

[XzorshTheConqueror]

Undertone wrote...


It's just Bioware yet again praising their favourite children the Paragons. It happens just about every choice - the Rachni turn out to be good, all the criminals they let go end up reformed or don't cause any detriment and so on and so on.

I would be totally find with this if I was playing KotoR and was dark-side. Not on Mass Effect.

I understand where you're coming from, but to be fair to Bioware, almost every RPG out there favors the lawful good/paragon/light-side character, etc. It's one reason why I always play a good character in rpgs; playing an evil character just isn't rewarding, and the story from an evil character's pov always seems contrived, since the evil character is put in the shoes of saving the world from some greater evil. I think that's just to be expected since most gamers enjoy playing noble heroes, and game developers perhaps don't have the time to focus on making the game enjoyable from an evil character's perspective.

[Wulfram]

My opinion on this depends on what the actual arrangement is with TIM.
If Shepard just hands over the base to Cerberus, no strings attached, then that's stupid and blowing it up is better.
If he takes sensible precautions, puts some non-cerberus guys on it - like Mordin, for example - to keep an eye on things and makes sure TIM doesn't have exclusive access to the resulting tech, then keeping the base is probably reasonable.

[Jarlan23]

Undertone wrote...

Redgoon23 wrote...

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Redgoon23 wrote...

I destroy it every playthrough. It's an evil place. And if you keep it your handing it to a twisted man. If I were able to hand it over to the Citadel races or the Alliance then yeah I would save it. But Cerberus is the only option and I'm sure the illusive man would experiment on live subjects with it.

You would hand a base over to people who stabbed you in the back rather then give it to the man who saved your life?  If you gave the collector base to the council they would pretend it doesn't exist, they're doing nothing at all to save the galaxy.  TIM and Cerberus are, just because they're the only people who have their dirty laundry hanging out in the games doesn't meant they're the only people who can't wash clothes.

No way the council would act like it didn't exist if you handed over a ship the size of the collecter base. The Citadel races would use it to better all of the races. Humans, Turians, Asari, and Salarians etc. Cerberus would use it to dominate the other races.

Yeah the TIM funded bringing Shepard back to life, but would he of done it for Turian? If a Turian gave the galaxy the best chance for survival would TIM spend all those credits to bring him back to life?

Phahah you are funny dude. Sovereign was bloody huge. It's very simple process to find the age of it and realize it predates the Geth by kajilion years. Shall I do the famous airquotes?

And if you think the Council race and the system placed was not exploiting the lesser races you are a tool.

Get so mad over it. lol.

Sovereign was also destroyed now wasn't it? Handing over an intact collecter base is not something they would just ignore. Not with all the tech inside it.