803 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

jeweledleah wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

STG wrote...

Would be funny if the keepers are constructing a reaper somewhere inside the citadel.

Yes it would heh heh.

pretty sure protheans lived long enough to reprogram them not to obey the reaper signals anymore, seeing as it was the reason for sovereign directly plugging into citadel.  and speaking of keeper research its really somethign that should be pursued, in conjunction with the data we get from vigil.  might not seem like much but reprograming beings that tend to blow up if you so much as look at them wrong?  this tech has some very serious potential when it comes to anti-reaper measures.

Pure speculation at this point but it IS feasible that the Protheans turned off the keepers response to the Citadel signal without knowing of (and disabling) further keeper commands to build pieces of a Reaper for quick emergency assembly.  Doubtful but a possiblity.

The keeper study yes I agree should be and probably will be further pursued or play a part of Mass Effect 3.  This Prothean research idea is also hinted at in Lair of the Shadow Broker when you talk to Liara after defeating the Shadow Broker.  She says the Shadow Broker thought there was more Prothean technology that may help and he was pursuing it.  So yes this does support your idea that - through Vigil/not through Vigil - there is more to find that can help defeat the Reapers.  Also as I mentioned before it (the keeper study) would go a long way in proving to the Council and Alliance that the Reapers are real and not something Shepard made up.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Though I do agree that Reapers are not required for galactic genocide - there are definitely other means.

That was my point. If you are inclined towards galactic genocide cycles, you can do it with means far shorter than making Reapers.

Well not to quibble but "far shorter" is a bit of a stretch.  You may need something as equally sophisticated as a Reaper to achieve total genocide of every living thing (synthetic and organic) that uses the Mass Relay technology.  Can you imagine something less sophisticated?  I'm curious.

[jeweledleah]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Pure speculation at this point but it IS feasible that the Protheans turned off the keepers response to the Citadel signal without knowing of (and disabling) further keeper commands to build pieces of a Reaper for quick emergency assembly.  Doubtful but a possiblity.

I'll conceed that it is in fact a small possibility which means its more important then ever to follow up on that keeper research.

The keeper study yes I agree should be and probably will be further pursued or play a part of Mass Effect 3.  This Prothean research idea is also hinted at in Lair of the Shadow Broker when you talk to Liara after defeating the Shadow Broker.  She says the Shadow Broker thought there was more Prothean technology that may help and he was pursuing it.  So yes this does support your idea that - through Vigil/not through Vigil - there is more to find that can help defeat the Reapers.  Also as I mentioned before it (the keeper study) would go a long way in proving to the Council and Alliance that the Reapers are real and not something Shepard made up.

oh they know reapers are real.  I just think they are stonewalling Shepard due to, well, being dead for 2 years and then suddenly showing up alive and in questionable company, heck I wouldn't trust Shepard with sensitive information either. what if Shepard is another indocrinated Saren? the fact that they offered to reinstate Shepard as a spectre leads me to believe that they are still concidering Shep as a possible assistance and are just biding their time - council is super careful with need for proof (in case of human council - it also applies).  The way I see it, I have equal chances of sucess whether I stick with cerberus, or rejoin the alliance.  more burocratic red tape with alliance/council to deal with or effective but ruthless and bloody shortcuts on Cerberus side.  which one you are more willing to accept - that would be up to you.

[Dean_the_Young]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Though I do agree that Reapers are not required for galactic genocide - there are definitely other means.

That was my point. If you are inclined towards galactic genocide cycles, you can do it with means far shorter than making Reapers.

Well not to quibble but "far shorter" is a bit of a stretch.  You may need something as equally sophisticated as a Reaper to achieve total genocide of every living thing (synthetic and organic) that uses the Mass Relay technology.  Can you imagine something less sophisticated?  I'm curious.

Of course: conventional technology in the universe is more than capable of direct genocide. The politics and motive might not be there, but the means have been since the Salarians and Asari found the Citadel.

The greatest requirement to conduct galactic genocide is being able to move about the galaxy. FTL as it stands can do that. Past that, it's largely conventional: genocidal orbital bombardment is relatively basic, not even requiring a dreadnaught. You can go with super-plagues (like an uncured genophage if the Krogan don't reform), or you can finish the job with ground troops (like the Krogan did the Rachni), but genocide is far from impossible. It's only hard because the tech and power gap between species isn't so large, and no one has the reason or desire to take the costs and accept it all.

The Reapers certainly have an edge above other means, but that edge was in large supported by situtational and qualitiative advantages. Simply having an overwhelming conventional advantage (a dreadnaught/carrier armada that outweighs the rest of the galaxy, for example) would enable you to win: with no doubt, the Council could genocide the galaxy as it stands now.

[Almostfaceman]

jeweledleah wrote...


oh they know reapers are real.  I just think they are stonewalling Shepard due to, well, being dead for 2 years and then suddenly showing up alive and in questionable company, heck I wouldn't trust Shepard with sensitive information either. what if Shepard is another indocrinated Saren? the fact that they offered to reinstate Shepard as a spectre leads me to believe that they are still concidering Shep as a possible assistance and are just biding their time - council is super careful with need for proof (in case of human council - it also applies).  The way I see it, I have equal chances of sucess whether I stick with cerberus, or rejoin the alliance.  more burocratic red tape with alliance/council to deal with or effective but ruthless and bloody shortcuts on Cerberus side.  which one you are more willing to accept - that would be up to you.

I'll give you that it is a possibility the Council really knows and what you say is true - though it is not provable at this point.  And this did occur to me previously.  Still, having a plan of action to "prove" to the council through the keepers that Reapers are real is an option to keep on the table in case they really don't know or in case I need to use it for some other purpose.

As it occurred to me, it factored into my assessment that TiM brought me back to life and leaked I was working with Cerberus to isolate me from former allies so he could use me as his tool to gain access to the Collector base with little to no outside interference.  This manipulation is a factor I weigh in with all the other factors regarding TiM when given the decision whether or not to hand the Collector tech over to him.

[jeweledleah]

@ Almostfaceman - most definitely, on all counts

[Dean_the_Young]

The reason the Council and others don't trust Shepard isn't because it was Cerberus who broke the news that Shepard voluntarily joined up with Cerberus, but rather the fact that Shepard actually (and voluntarily) joined up with Cerberus. Nor were Shepard's prior allies blocked or stopped from acting in ways they wouldn't have otherwise because of Shepard's association: Tali didn't care, Wrex has bigger problems to solve, Liara had her own obsession, the Shadow Broker was never going to involve himself, the Council has always declined to approach the Terminus or Traverse on behalf of Humanity, and the Alliance is either too weak or too busy otherwise to do much about it.

Heck, the only reason the Alliance got involved when it did was TIM's rumors.


No one knew about the Collector Base, or that it could be captured, until well after Shepard had returned.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The greatest requirement to conduct galactic genocide is being able to move about the galaxy. FTL as it stands can do that. Past that, it's largely conventional: genocidal orbital bombardment is relatively basic, not even requiring a dreadnaught. You can go with super-plagues (like an uncured genophage if the Krogan don't reform), or you can finish the job with ground troops (like the Krogan did the Rachni), but genocide is far from impossible. It's only hard because the tech and power gap between species isn't so large, and no one has the reason or desire to take the costs and accept it all.

Of course this is purely speculative, but I don't agree.  One example -  if the Turians decide to wipe out all other races, they'll be opposed by equal (or greater) technology.  Achieving genocide is doubtful at best.  Now remember, I'm talking about genocide as complete as the Reapers can achieve.  This means the Turians would have to be able to wipe out the Asari, the Salarians, the Geth, the Humans, the Quarians, blah blah blah.  I don't think any one race has the technological advantage to do that to the others.  Only a technological leap of Reaper sophistication (and quantity) would probably succeed.  Sure, the Turians may very well wipe out one of their opponents completely, but complete victory such as the Reapers achieve?  Nah, don't think so.  Nor do I think the Asari could do it, or the Alliance, or any other race.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The reason the Council and others don't trust Shepard isn't because it was Cerberus who broke the news that Shepard voluntarily joined up with Cerberus, but rather the fact that Shepard actually (and voluntarily) joined up with Cerberus. Nor were Shepard's prior allies blocked or stopped from acting in ways they wouldn't have otherwise because of Shepard's association: Tali didn't care, Wrex has bigger problems to solve, Liara had her own obsession, the Shadow Broker was never going to involve himself, the Council has always declined to approach the Terminus or Traverse on behalf of Humanity, and the Alliance is either too weak or too busy otherwise to do much about it.

Heck, the only reason the Alliance got involved when it did was TIM's rumors.


No one knew about the Collector Base, or that it could be captured, until well after Shepard had returned.

What anyone knows or does not know about the Collector Base is pure speculation on your part.  The area in front of the Collector base is littered with ships, some old, some not.

Well nobody had to know Shepard joined Cerberus now did they?  Unless someone leaked it - say - like TiM.  And yes this is quibbling, but TiM leaking that Shepard is working for Cerberus eliminates any forward momentum Shepard can make - like going to Anderson and telling him he's working "with" Cerberus but not "for" them.

Tali did care but she loves Shepard and she makes a point she's not working for Cerberus but for Shepard.   The Council cares, Anderson cares, and Ashley/Kaiden cares.  The Council and Anderson are by far the most important due to the logistical support I lose being pigeon-holed by TiM.  You can't take away TiM's role in this.

[Rekkampum]

Since I am not conflating your comment, but was directly refering to the crew mates concerns in game, and the position of many people in general. Arguments which have, repeatedly, been raised in this thread.

In a discussion between two people that did not in any way raise questions about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the Collector Base. Hence, irrelevant. Perhaps trolling is too harsh of a word, but it is annoying. When you are in a debate over something with another person on this thread, I don't jump in and start making pointless statements that have no relation to what you were currently discussing. But I'll just ignore it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Of course this is purely speculative, but I don't agree.  One example -  if the Turians decide to wipe out all other races, they'll be opposed by equal (or greater) technology.  Achieving genocide is doubtful at best.  Now remember, I'm talking about genocide as complete as the Reapers can achieve.  This means the Turians would have to be able to wipe out the Asari, the Salarians, the Geth, the Humans, the Quarians, blah blah blah.  I don't think any one race has the technological advantage to do that to the others.  Only a technological leap of Reaper sophistication (and quantity) would probably succeed.  Sure, the Turians may very well wipe out one of their opponents completely, but complete victory such as the Reapers achieve?  Nah, don't think so.  Nor do I think the Asari could do it, or the Alliance, or any other race.

Technology doesn't equal war potential: though, say, the Turians and Hanar have roughly equivalent technology, the ability to wage (and win) wars is far in the Turian favor, not least because of the Dreadnaught treaty. While the Turians couldn't overcome the entire galaxy (probably), they could deal with a large number of equally advanced species simply because of their size, numbers, and the fact that they're already militarized.

Superior technology functions as a force multiplier. The more superior (and better utilized) it is, the higher the multiplicative factor. This is why historically small minorities have routinely overrun, occupied, and suppressed far greater numbers.

The barrier to succeding in genocide in groups of equal technology isn't the lack of the technology to carry it out (genocide has been done on a regular, if not systematic basis, since we hit eachother over the heads with clubs), but the lack of war potential to do overwhelm resistence. At that point, it's a matter of numbers and situational dependencies, not the technology, that determine if the genocidal party would be successful. The Turians alone might not be able to succede, but the Turians and the Salarians might.

In order to conduct a systematic genocide, you need to win the war in order to be able to reach and affect the populations in the first place. What you need to win the war, however, is far more involved than simply superior technology: you can win without it, or lose with it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Almostfaceman wrote...

What anyone knows or does not know about the Collector Base is pure speculation on your part. The area in front of the Collector base is littered with ships, some old, some not.

And yet, repeated greatly by TIM and all other parties in the main game, no one has returned. The only party, ever, indicated by any point in the game, to ever have any marginal success is the shadow broker sending drones.

Everyone else, from TIM to Miranda to Mordin to the very scene where we actually learn where the Omega 4 relay goes to, disclaims any and all knowledge as to what's behind.

Now, could they be lying? Well, sure.  But nothing at all supports the claim that they are, and Mass Effect as a narrative gives us the truth, and is explicit and open about revealing deceptions. We have absolutely no more basis to claim TIM knew about the Base from the start despite claims to the contrary than we do to claim that Shepard is actually a Cerberus agent, and has been for decades.

Well nobody had to know Shepard joined Cerberus now did they?  Unless someone leaked it - say - like TiM.  And yes this is quibbling, but TiM leaking that Shepard is working for Cerberus eliminates any forward momentum Shepard can make - like going to Anderson and telling him he's working "with" Cerberus but not "for" them.

Aria knew the moment you stepped into the Terminus systems on her own accord. The media sighted you on its own. Shepard outright walked into the Citadel on a ship with the Cerberus logo.

There was no forward momentum to be had. The moment everyone confirmed you were with Cerberus, that's what mattered to them.

Tali did care but she loves Shepard and she makes a point she's not working for Cerberus but for Shepard.   The Council cares, Anderson cares, and Ashley/Kaiden cares.  The Council and Anderson are by far the most important due to the logistical support I lose being pigeon-holed by TiM.  You can't take away TiM's role in this.

TIM roles in revealing your identity? No. TIM's role in somehow keeping the Council, the Alliance, or Shepard's allies from contributing to the fight against the Collectors? No. The reasons they weren't going to contribute to the fight against the Collectors despite Shepard's pleas were established well before Shepard was even brought back to life.

The Council, and the Alliance, began covering you up and blacklisting your supporters the moment Shepard died. They care becuase you died at the height of your popularity before you became a public nuissance, not because they believe you and are behind you 100%. They never have been.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rekkampum wrote...

In a discussion between two people that did not in any way raise questions about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the Collector Base. Hence, irrelevant. Perhaps trolling is too harsh of a word, but it is annoying. When you are in a debate over something with another person on this thread, I don't jump in and start making pointless statements that have no relation to what you were currently discussing. But I'll just ignore it.

Public discussions on public forums are like herpies: sharing is the name of the game.

Really: get over it. It's not trolling, and it is a part of public discourse. There have been dozens of people jumping into exchanges between others, and there will be many more later.

Whether you feel it was a pointless point to make is irrelevant, since it's already clear we disagree on that, and with all due respect I'm going to trust my judgement over yours.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 09 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Of course this is purely speculative, but I don't agree.  One example -  if the Turians decide to wipe out all other races, they'll be opposed by equal (or greater) technology.  Achieving genocide is doubtful at best.  Now remember, I'm talking about genocide as complete as the Reapers can achieve.  This means the Turians would have to be able to wipe out the Asari, the Salarians, the Geth, the Humans, the Quarians, blah blah blah.  I don't think any one race has the technological advantage to do that to the others.  Only a technological leap of Reaper sophistication (and quantity) would probably succeed.  Sure, the Turians may very well wipe out one of their opponents completely, but complete victory such as the Reapers achieve?  Nah, don't think so.  Nor do I think the Asari could do it, or the Alliance, or any other race.

Technology doesn't equal war potential: though, say, the Turians and Hanar have roughly equivalent technology, the ability to wage (and win) wars is far in the Turian favor, not least because of the Dreadnaught treaty. While the Turians couldn't overcome the entire galaxy (probably), they could deal with a large number of equally advanced species simply because of their size, numbers, and the fact that they're already militarized.

Superior technology functions as a force multiplier. The more superior (and better utilized) it is, the higher the multiplicative factor. This is why historically small minorities have routinely overrun, occupied, and suppressed far greater numbers.

The barrier to succeding in genocide in groups of equal technology isn't the lack of the technology to carry it out (genocide has been done on a regular, if not systematic basis, since we hit eachother over the heads with clubs), but the lack of war potential to do overwhelm resistence. At that point, it's a matter of numbers and situational dependencies, not the technology, that determine if the genocidal party would be successful. The Turians alone might not be able to succede, but the Turians and the Salarians might.

In order to conduct a systematic genocide, you need to win the war in order to be able to reach and affect the populations in the first place. What you need to win the war, however, is far more involved than simply superior technology: you can win without it, or lose with it.

Technology doesn't equal war potential?  I think the Japanese who got blown to smithereens by our H bomb in WWII would strongly disagree with you, lol.  War is a complicated thing, but advanced technology combined with the will to use it makes winning more probable.  Take 1000 men and charge at me with bows and arrows and I'll gladly meet you with 10 or so guys in a Spectre C-130 gunship.  Of course war is more complicated than this and it should be understood we are speaking in very broad terms.

Talking about the Turians vs. the Hanar isn't relevent.  It's already understood that with equal tech the Turians could defeat them.  This mini-topic is one race (whomever) being able to take on and wipe out all the other races completely.

Annd the Salarians and Turians teaming up doesn't equal the Reaper analogy of one force wiping out all other races, but this is all again purely speculative and a bit off topic.   If you'd like to continue this discussion I'd prefer to do it in another thread or PM.

[Dean_the_Young]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Technology doesn't equal war potential?

No, it doesn't. Technology is a component of War Potential, but is not the equivalent. War potential is the sum of many parts, in the same sense that you yourself are more than just your arm.

I think the Japanese who got blown to smithereens by our H bomb in WWII would strongly disagree with you, lol.

If they did, they would be mistaken.

Japan didn't lose the war because the super-advanced atomic bomb blew them up. Japan lost the war because the US had the bodies, bullets, boats, and supplies, all with rough Japanese equivalents, in superior ways the Japanese couldn't make.

Annd the Salarians and Turians teaming up doesn't equal the Reaper analogy of one force wiping out all other races, but this is all again purely speculative and a bit off topic.   If you'd like to continue this discussion I'd prefer to do it in another thread or PM.

I'll pass, and end with a dispute that a Salrian/Turian teamup rather does equal the Reaper analogy: Reapers are, after all, each a seaparate nation, in and of itself, and a Salarian/Turian teamup is single force in itself. You can just as easily break it down further: the Turians are a single force from many component colonies, those colonies are the single representation of the cities on those colonies, those cities are districts...

The difference is that, in this current political setup, no single race has the power to wipe out all the others. That, however, is the problem of relative sizes and powers, not a technological limitation.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TIM roles in revealing your identity? No. TIM's role in somehow keeping the Council, the Alliance, or Shepard's allies from contributing to the fight against the Collectors? No. The reasons they weren't going to contribute to the fight against the Collectors despite Shepard's pleas were established well before Shepard was even brought back to life.

The Council, and the Alliance, began covering you up and blacklisting your supporters the moment Shepard died. They care becuase you died at the height of your popularity before you became a public nuissance, not because they believe you and are behind you 100%. They never have been.

Pardon? Shepard never officially died. For the Council to have taken an official position that Shep had not died but started working for Cerberus, they would have been undermining themselves.

They didn't make up Shepard working for Cerberus on their own, and TIM is the logical source of such a 'leak'. Shepard wasn't even alive yet when it was leaked, so why would anyone other than Cerberus start such a rumour?

Modifié par Moiaussi, 09 mars 2011 - 10:17 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet, repeated greatly by TIM and all other parties in the main game, no one has returned. The only party, ever, indicated by any point in the game, to ever have any marginal success is the shadow broker sending drones.

Everyone else, from TIM to Miranda to Mordin to the very scene where we actually learn where the Omega 4 relay goes to, disclaims any and all knowledge as to what's behind.

Now, could they be lying? Well, sure.  But nothing at all supports the claim that they are, and Mass Effect as a narrative gives us the truth, and is explicit and open about revealing deceptions. We have absolutely no more basis to claim TIM knew about the Base from the start despite claims to the contrary than we do to claim that Shepard is actually a Cerberus agent, and has been for decades.

None of what you just said contradicts that what we think we know about the Omega 4 relay is speculation.  You're making assumptions about the Mass Effect narrative because it's not finished and lies and deception can be revealed in the 3rd act (Mass Effect 3 - Luke has a sister who can be turned to the dark side).   Because some parties COULD be lying - or just be ignorant.  We're not given any information on whether the Salarians may have been secretly successful going through - or any other race. We may never know for certain what TiM does or does not know about what is beyond the relay... but I'm sure Mass Effect 3 will help clear the matter up a bit and tell us why Cerberus has large quantities of ships ready to leap through after we have been successful.

Aria knew the moment you stepped into the Terminus systems on her own accord. The media sighted you on its own. Shepard outright walked into the Citadel on a ship with the Cerberus logo.

There was no forward momentum to be had. The moment everyone confirmed you were with Cerberus, that's what mattered to them.

Aria on her own eh?  So TiM telling the intelligence community that I was alive and working for them had nothing to do with it?  Riiight.  And I KNEW you were going to bring up the Cerberus logo on the ship.  This just strengthens my argument that my Shepard is seeing TiM pigeon-hole his choices going forward.  It was incredibly easy for everyone to confirm I was Cerberus and there was no way I could move forward without that baggage.  Because of TiM.  I don't know where you're coming from with this "Shepard is a Cerberus agent and has been for decades" bit.  Never claimed that and never thought that.  And I know there was no forward momentum to be had.  Like I said, TiM took it away.  There was no way I could take his ship (which shouldn't have been marked - they're a clandestine group and probably should have been blown out space upon entering Council space since they're traitors - but that's a plot hole) and go forth and say "I've acquired a ship and some resources (a totally plausible Spectre-like thing to do) now come help me go find out what's going on with these them there Collectors".

TIM roles in revealing your identity? No. TIM's role in somehow keeping the Council, the Alliance, or Shepard's allies from contributing to the fight against the Collectors? No. The reasons they weren't going to contribute to the fight against the Collectors despite Shepard's pleas were established well before Shepard was even brought back to life.

The Council, and the Alliance, began covering you up and blacklisting your supporters the moment Shepard died. They care becuase you died at the height of your popularity before you became a public nuissance, not because they believe you and are behind you 100%. They never have been.

They began once I died, and it didn't make it any easier to reverse that tide when I came back to life once TiM told the world in the advance of my wake that I'm a traitorous Cerberus flunkie.  TiM knew this and that's why he did it, to keep me reliant on him as much as possible so he has a better chance at acquiring whatever I discover past the Omega 4 relay.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 09 mars 2011 - 10:36 .

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Technology doesn't equal war potential?

No, it doesn't. Technology is a component of War Potential, but is not the equivalent. War potential is the sum of many parts, in the same sense that you yourself are more than just your arm.

I think the Japanese who got blown to smithereens by our H bomb in WWII would strongly disagree with you, lol.

If they did, they would be mistaken.

Japan didn't lose the war because the super-advanced atomic bomb blew them up. Japan lost the war because the US had the bodies, bullets, boats, and supplies, all with rough Japanese equivalents, in superior ways the Japanese couldn't make.

Annd the Salarians and Turians teaming up doesn't equal the Reaper analogy of one force wiping out all other races, but this is all again purely speculative and a bit off topic.   If you'd like to continue this discussion I'd prefer to do it in another thread or PM.

I'll pass, and end with a dispute that a Salrian/Turian teamup rather does equal the Reaper analogy: Reapers are, after all, each a seaparate nation, in and of itself, and a Salarian/Turian teamup is single force in itself. You can just as easily break it down further: the Turians are a single force from many component colonies, those colonies are the single representation of the cities on those colonies, those cities are districts...

The difference is that, in this current political setup, no single race has the power to wipe out all the others. That, however, is the problem of relative sizes and powers, not a technological limitation.

The Japanese surrendered because of the H bomb.  Technological superiority.  They had no way to defend against it and they knew we just had to get lucky 5 or 6 times to wipe out most of their city population.  They had no intention of surrendering up till that point.  That's a historical fact beyond debate my friend.

You can blah blah blah about technology being a Component and and get mired in semantics all you want, the discussion is a basic one and we're not going to get mired in pointless details.  The broad strokes being - take an island 10 miles by 10 miles and load it up with American Civil war technology troops then hit them from 30 miles away with a tactical nuke launched from an F18 fighter or submarine - tell me then the last thing going through those poor soldiers brains as they vaporize ain't "damn I wish we had the technology to do that". 

[Moiaussi]

Almostfaceman wrote...

The Japanese surrendered because of the H bomb.  Technological superiority.  They had no way to defend against it and they knew we just had to get lucky 5 or 6 times to wipe out most of their city population.  They had no intention of surrendering up till that point.  That's a historical fact beyond debate my friend.

You can blah blah blah about technology being a Component and and get mired in semantics all you want, the discussion is a basic one and we're not going to get mired in pointless details.  The broad strokes being - take an island 10 miles by 10 miles and load it up with American Civil war technology troops then hit them from 30 miles away with a tactical nuke launched from an F18 fighter or submarine - tell me then the last thing going through those poor soldiers brains as they vaporize ain't "damn I wish we had the technology to do that". 

They also surrendered because they were hit on Japanese soil, and because they were already losing. The US had more than enough conventional bomb capacity to do a lot more damage than the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki did.

[Spectreshadow]

I predict keeping the base will give you a technological advantage early on but bite you in the ass later. Destroying the base will likely result in more casualties but you won't have to deal with the wild card later.

[Almostfaceman]

Moiaussi wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

The Japanese surrendered because of the H bomb.  Technological superiority.  They had no way to defend against it and they knew we just had to get lucky 5 or 6 times to wipe out most of their city population.  They had no intention of surrendering up till that point.  That's a historical fact beyond debate my friend.

You can blah blah blah about technology being a Component and and get mired in semantics all you want, the discussion is a basic one and we're not going to get mired in pointless details.  The broad strokes being - take an island 10 miles by 10 miles and load it up with American Civil war technology troops then hit them from 30 miles away with a tactical nuke launched from an F18 fighter or submarine - tell me then the last thing going through those poor soldiers brains as they vaporize ain't "damn I wish we had the technology to do that". 

They also surrendered because they were hit on Japanese soil, and because they were already losing. The US had more than enough conventional bomb capacity to do a lot more damage than the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki did.

I don't mean to be argumentative but the Japanese military was preparing to defend the mainland down to the last man, woman and child.  It was a pattern seen with horror by U.S. marines on just about every Japanese-held island they had to take.  It's part of bushido.  To be captured was the ultimate dishonor.  The Emperor didn't want to see his people annihilated with no honor, so he capitulated.  Even then some of the military leaders performed seppuku (they killed themselves) in shame for having to bear surrender.  You are right that we were winning, but if we had attacked with infantry they would not have surrendered so quickly.

[Spectreshadow]

^^ They predicted upwards of a million casualties if we invaded the home islands. The shock and awe of a single bomb destroying an entire city if anything helped to prevent that.

[Moiaussi]

Almostfaceman wrote...

I don't mean to be argumentative but the Japanese military was preparing to defend the mainland down to the last man, woman and child.  It was a pattern seen with horror by U.S. marines on just about every Japanese-held island they had to take.  It's part of bushido.  To be captured was the ultimate dishonor.  The Emperor didn't want to see his people annihilated with no honor, so he capitulated.  Even then some of the military leaders performed seppuku (they killed themselves) in shame for having to bear surrender.  You are right that we were winning, but if we had attacked with infantry they would not have surrendered so quickly.

And if having run out of planes and munitions, having also run out of the raw materials to build more (having lost China's resources), they were continually bombed my many times the tonnage of those two bombs, why would they have held out longer? The military might well have been prepared to fight to the last man, but the Emperor and people were not neccessarily so willing. Use of those bombs might have made it easier, but it was as much a test run for them as an absolute neccessity.

Don't get me wrong, if they had had to resort to carpet bombing Japan, the casualties would have been a lot worse for Japan... if the Emperor let it continue.